Mark Rippetoe Squat Philosophy

[ViKtoricus]

Then what exactly makes you think you can go around telling other people the iron game isn't for pussies when you seem to have a very limited experience in said game?

Some people are simply destined for greatness.

[marshalljman]

It's ironic how I was the one that gave you that lone rep power point when you gave me some advice in th Help with Clean Technique thread and begged for it.

[runtocatch]

Some people are simply destined for greatness.

That **** made me laugh.

[tfk44]

It's probably worth mentioning that thigh and hip extensors ARE the posterior chain.

Hip flexors need to be fast and efficient (for pulling the thighs up in order to move under the bar. But, because you aren't flexing the thighs against resistance, excessive strength there isn't likely necessary.

I think most people are misinterpreting this info as weightlifting being quad dominant. The quads are a knee extensor (leg extensor, where leg = tibia+fibula in anatomical terms).

The quads are a thigh flexor. The hams, glutes, and low back (i.e., posterior chain) are thigh extensors.

The information you posted actually shows that weightlifters are posterior chain dominant.

This isn't news to anyone who weightlifts or works with weightlifters, but it seems to be misinterpreted quite often by powerlifters, strength coaches, and people uniformed with regard to weightlifting.

Very good post.

OP, when I switched from low bar PL style to OL style high bar about two months ago, I lost about 1/2 of my squat at first. I am probably an extreme example as I have terrible flexibility, I was doing shallow LB squats, and my ATG squats are both too slow and done in flat shoes. I would recommend committing to high bar, OL style ASAP and abandoning the PL squats. If you're anything like me, the gains you make with a PL squat aren't going to carry well to OL because your hamstrings are too weak. But I am just a novice.

[marshalljman]

Very good post.

OP, when I switched from low bar PL style to OL style high bar about two months ago, I lost about 1/2 of my squat at first. I am probably an extreme example as I have terrible flexibility, I was doing shallow LB squats, and my ATG squats are both too slow and done in flat shoes. I would recommend committing to high bar, OL style ASAP and abandoning the PL squats. If you're anything like me, the gains you make with a PL squat aren't going to carry well to OL because your hamstrings are too weak. But I am just a novice.

It sounds like we are similar. I lose about 50 lbs or more switching to oly squats. I do squat well below parallel even when I do PL style so I may not lose quite as much but it is a completely different feel. I hardly feel it in my quads doing low bars, mostly glutes, inner thigh and hips.

I have only done low bar 1 workout so I have probably not done too much damage, but I will go back to the high bars. I irritated my quadriceps tendon somehow so I need to back off the squats a couple workouts though.

[olyw8lifter]

It sounds like we are similar. I lose about 50 lbs or more switching to oly squats. I do squat well below parallel even when I do PL style so I may not lose quite as much but it is a completely different feel. I hardly feel it in my quads doing low bars, mostly glutes, inner thigh and hips.

I have only done low bar 1 workout so I have probably not done too much damage, but I will go back to the high bars. I irritated my quadriceps tendon somehow so I need to back off the squats a couple workouts though.

I think you'll find that most people lose a decent amount on their squat when they switch and use the Olympic high-bar version. I had to go back to about 60kg and re-learn the deep squat from my coach!! Talk about humbling!!

[jcameron28]

lol i think i actually lost around 30-40pounds switching from full olympic highbar to ipf style low bar. the bar just kills my rear delts and it used to feel like nothing on top of traps.

although its also coming back from a hamstring tear so probably some difference from that haha

[Kirra]

Some people are simply destined for greatness.

He's trolling. Set him on ignore and let's get this thread back on topic shall we?

[ViKtoricus]

He's trolling. Set him on ignore and let's get this thread back on topic shall we?

Look who's talking Mr. Nazi...

[crackyflipside]

The real argument is high bar or low bar front squat. Low bar front squat:

[Kirra]

The real argument is high bar or low bar front squat. Low bar front squat:

Half squats. Sure, it's impressive but still...

[crackyflipside]

Half squats. Sure, it's impressive but still...

(it's sarcasm)

[John Prophet]

Here is an intersting article: The relative value of the back squat in the training of weightlifters

Of course its discussing OLY style backsquats. His conclusion seems to be that perhaps too much emphasis is placed on back squats period.


conclusion from the article:

Although the back squat is undoubtedly the most universally applied assistance exercise in the training of weightlifters, it should not be considered "the fundamental training exercise for the snatch." Significant differences in the biomechanics of the two exercises as well as the coordination structure and the specifics of the strength required for the snatch preclude such a conclusion.


Although the back squat is by far more of an assistance exercise for the clean and jerk, one should consider the following exercises in order of importance for strengthening the legs for the clean and jerk: classic clean and jerk, squat clean, front squat, eccentric front squat (if the lifter has difficulty in the recovery phase) and back squat.

--------------

Think about it. If he puts the oly back squat itself as of less importance than the front squat and eccentric front squat, think how low his opinion of low bar back squats would be, lol

[Pokarface]

I know I mentioned it before, but a while ago I posted a 'scientific' study where the researcher disapproves using back squats as the best method to train Oly lifting. Just read the intro and conclusion. What he basically said is, "do more Oly lifts if you want to be good at them" He even dared say that the U.S. method of training was doing it wrong

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sporti...ticles007.html

Ok, the above poster already mentioned it. Although some users from this forum disapproved the researchers conclusion, most agreed. So if you want to be good at baseball, do baseball, if you want to be good at basketball, do basketball, and if you wanna be good at Oly, just do OLY STYLE!

[Kirra]

I know I mentioned it before, but a while ago I posted a 'scientific' study where the researcher disapproves using back squats as the best method to train Oly lifting. Just read the intro and conclusion. What he basically said is, "do more Oly lifts if you want to be good at them" He even dared say that the U.S. method of training was doing it wrong

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sporti...ticles007.html

Ok, the above poster already mentioned it. Although some users from this forum disapproved the researchers conclusion, most agreed. So if you want to be good at baseball, do baseball, if you want to be good at basketball, do basketball, and if you wanna be good at Oly, just do OLY STYLE!

Then why do football players train for strength? If you wanna be good at your sport you need to train other things than just your sport.

Negged.

[crackyflipside]

For what it's worth my coach was raised on the Soviet system and values back squat volume over heavy singles. He would talk about Arranda:


How he was more impressed by Arranda's volume work at 275 than he was seeing him squat 310 for a single.

[Pokarface]

Then why do football players train for strength? If you wanna be good at your sport you need to train other things than just your sport.

Negged.

Said the wise 6'0,'' @ 170 lbs bra without scientific backup (what is a full ROM Nazi?)
It seems that nobody here can express their opinion anymore.
It is not like if I wrote the scientific study. Will neg on recharge for suppressing others opinions

[slowman41]

I know I mentioned it before, but a while ago I posted a 'scientific' study where the researcher disapproves using back squats as the best method to train Oly lifting. Just read the intro and conclusion. What he basically said is, "do more Oly lifts if you want to be good at them" He even dared say that the U.S. method of training was doing it wrong

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sporti...ticles007.html

Ok, the above poster already mentioned it. Although some users from this forum disapproved the researchers conclusion, most agreed. So if you want to be good at baseball, do baseball, if you want to be good at basketball, do basketball, and if you wanna be good at Oly, just do OLY STYLE!

science is great and all, but real would experience trumps all.

The russians have been using back squats for 10's of years now, and their lifters are frequently at the top of their classes.

[Iberian80]

science is great and all, but real would experience trumps all.

The russians have been using back squats for 10's of years now, and their lifters are frequently at the top of their classes.

To further support Slowman real baseball players workout, real basketball players run all kinds of drills, and real olympic lifters do a lot of assistance exercises.

The problem is in a full lift some muscle group is going to be the weak link and you lift is only as strong as the weakest link. Being able to push each of those links individually or in a different manner after you have exhausted them on the actual lifts helps you progress further than you could if you just did the lifts themselves.

[tfk44]

That article pertains to elite level lifters and suggests the back squat as an assistance exercise, which it is for elite lifters. Given that the original poster is a novice and seeking to build strength, I'm not understanding why that research would be applicable, even if one agrees with the conclusions.

[Kirra]

Said the wise 6'0,'' @ 170 lbs bra without scientific backup (what is a full ROM Nazi?)
It seems that nobody here can express their opinion anymore.
It is not like if I wrote the scientific study. Will neg on recharge for suppressing others opinions

You need "scientific backup" to know that football players do a lot of strength training? Go add 100lbs to your squat and deadlift and see what happens to your oly lifts.

That article pertains to elite level lifters and suggests the back squat as an assistance exercise, which it is for elite lifters. Given that the original poster is a novice and seeking to build strength, I'm not understanding why that research would be applicable, even if one agrees with the conclusions.

This.

[JiP]

You need "scientific backup" to know that football players do a lot of strength training? Go add 100lbs to your squat and deadlift and see what happens to your oly lifts.

That guy posts one link and gets negged for it? Coming from the dude who tried to convince the whole oly section low bar squats were superior for oly after reading one article?

GTFO and do some lifting and get some practical experience rather than just parroting info and acting like a know-it-all on here.

[Kirra]

That guy posts one link and gets negged for it? Coming from the dude who tried to convince the whole oly section low bar squats were superior for oly after reading one article?

GTFO and do some lifting and get some practical experience rather than just parroting info and acting like a know-it-all on here.

I didn't neg him for the link, I negged his for this:

"So if you want to be good at baseball, do baseball, if you want to be good at basketball, do basketball, and if you wanna be good at Oly, just do OLY STYLE!"

If you wanna be good at *your favourite sport* you need to do more than just that sport.

And I still don't see any compelling reasons to pick high bar squats over low bar squats + front squats. Especially when you're a novice/intermediate lifter.

[rdferguson]

I say this as an abysmally pathetic excuse for an Olympic weightlifter (or any form of lifter, for that matter), but it's my understanding that high bar is typically preferred because it's more sport-specific due to the depth and the more upright position. However, you never do a back squat in the Olympics, so I don't see it as a sport-specific lift - just a general strength builder. And with that being said, I think for general strength purposes, the low bar back squat is probably the better exercise over the high bar back squat. Of course, issues such as recovery come into play as well, which I assume is why most Olympic lifters don't have pure deadlifts in their programs (at least, as far as I'm aware).

For the record, everything I've just written reflects my own thoughts. I recently saw a video of Mark Rippetoe talking about squats and Oly lifting, and was surprised to find that he was saying much of what I was already thinking. Something big that stands out in the video is that he demands an answer to the question "Why?" From his point of view at least, the logic appears to be that all the world class weightlifters do high bar squats, so everyone should do high bar squats, so lifters reach elite levels doing high bar squats, and perpetuate the matter. I don't know how many people (if any) actually have strong evidence to support that high bar is the best back squat for Olympic lifting, because it seems that every weightlifter does it because every weightlifter does it. It's certainly the "safe" road for Olympic lifting, but I think it's unclear whether or not it's the best road.

Again, I say all this as someone who basically constitutes incompitence in Olympic weightlifting, so these are just my thoughts - I make no claims to authority on the subject.

[raffiki]

*sigh* I thought this thread would die and I wouldn't have to comment...

The quote in my sig is from an article by Andrew Charniga here: http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sporti...ary/index.html

To expand on that. The way the hamstrings express strength is different from the back. Their force output increases as the speed of movement increase (only up to a point of course). It has also been found that during a rapid eccentric movement of the torso, the hamstrings are the first to fire when reversing the direction. This is important because the torso tends to decline somewhat during the first pull, and or course needs to be pulled back up. On top of that the hamstrings are stretched during the first pull by the action of the quads extending the knees. The puts a greater force potential in the hamstrings via the stretch reflex, as compared to the glutes and back. So the evidence is strong that the hamstrings are the dominant muscle group of the three based on torso action, knee action, and speed of movement.

At this point we will have to abandon modern science in favor of traditional science (simply observing the world around you). A PL squat or any deadlift differs greatly from the above because of the same three reasons. There is nothing about the movements that would preferentially recruit the hamstrings. However (as has been mentioned) the real world experience is that the back generally takes the brunt of the load on these exercises and fatigues first.

I have seen some people that can do full squats with a low(er) bar position. They find it more comfortable. However if you find that you lean forward when the going gets tough, then you need to stick with high bar. The goal is to train the thighs in squats. If you want to train the posterior chain, then choose exercises that preferentially recruit the hamstrings.

[John Prophet]

In the Russian manuals they make the point numerous times that the longer one uses an exercise, the less effective the exercise becomes.

Then they make some points about variety being needed, for instance by Medvedev in "A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightifting" he says:


"The components of the loading in weightlifting are: a definite quantity of a specific means, the amount of weight, the number of repetitions per set, the various regimes of muscular activity, the optimum proportions of the volume and the intensity, and other factors. The aforementioned components should be periodically changed in order to create the optimum conditions for the sportsman's adaptation."



So going by their own logic, it seems that low bar back squats could be used at some point in the yearly plan if nothing else just for variety so that they dont go stale on the regular hi-bar back squats. Heck, they use tons of exercises that dont match the exact motor pattern of this and that blah blah. Why would low bar squats be any different?

There are points in the yearly plan when variety is needed and a wider assortment of exercises are used, for instance after a brief layoff after a major competition period. Seems low bar squats would fit in nicely there. I mean, heck, they do flat benches and overhead presses. Its hard to see how a phase of low back squats would actually hurt anything. (and I dont mean bar halfway down the back, I mean off the traps down on the rear delts)


I imagine to a degree its habit and perhaps a bit of snobbery. If low bars are looked upon as a "powerlifting" exercise, the oly coaches might not want to use them. Same goes for powerlifters who wont use certain moves because they are "oly" moves

[J.L.C.]

Why do people who don't weightlift care what kind of squats weightlifters do?

[John Prophet]

one could go even farther. With all the wear and tear and abuse the shoulder region takes, its amazing they dont use a safety squat bar to keep from having to reach back around and grab the bar on thousands of sets per year

I mean, a safety bar squat would be like a cross between a hi bar back squat and a front squat. Again, why dont they do this??? Lack of familiarity might be one reason

[J.L.C.]

one could go even farther. With all the wear and tear and abuse the shoulder region takes, its amazing they dont use a safety squat bar to keep from having to reach back around and grab the bar on thousands of sets per year

I mean, a safety bar squat would be like a cross between a hi bar back squat and a front squat. Again, why dont they do this??? Lack of familiarity might be one reason

Or maybe because they use a high bar placement they don't have to reach back around to grab the bar....

With a high bar placement the bar is well supported by the torso. So well supported that some lifters can even remove the hands.

[John Prophet]

Why do people who don't weightlift care what kind of squats weightlifters do?

same reason Oly coaches comment on the training of bodybuilders and powerlifters. Human nature