Mark Rippetoe Squat Philosophy

[MadDogMalesh]

The only long term effect(negative) that Im really seeing here is the one babyslayer brought up. The fact of the lack of more pos chain work, specifically the lower back and hamstrings. I have to somewhat agree that having stronger hammies and a low back will never as who really wants to have imbalances? Trust me you don't as it causes loads of problems.

Now to combat the posterior chain imbalances that may or may not exist couldn't one still do typical oly front/back squats and just do reasonable work for the low back and hamstrings to condition it and keep everything in balance. This would obviously come in accessory work such as GHR's, proper rows, good mornings etc would all help with those issues and at least allow balance to be maintained without having to spend more time squatting.

Just thinking' like a PL'er.

[gewaltiger]

i like how every pl'er has to throw their 2 cents in and thinks they have revolutionary new ideas about how ol'ers should train.. just leave us alone. there's certain systems in places for precise reasons. it works.
and i think my lower back gets worked enough doing heavy cleans, thx

[crackyflipside]

My post on another topic just about this argument:

Go ahead and squat low bar as an Oly lifter, I could use less competition... you will take longer to recover and the exaggerated eccentric movement in that type of squat will decrease your explosive strength although increase your slow strength. We squat high bar to minimize the eccentric and focus most on the concentric of the movement as explosively as possible. You want a strong posterior chain, do more pulls and lots of weighted hypers.

[gewaltiger]

i love you cracky

[olyw8lifter]

My post on another topic just about this argument:

Cracky, you nailed it!!

[Blitzk]

Kolecki squats "high bar", he just holds the bar lower on his back. By that, I mean he is squatting normally, not with the mechanics that rippetoe teaches.

I found this the best style when I did Oly lifting as well, just for the fact that the bar felt better there.

[ViKtoricus]

Please keep in mind that elite level lifters are training in a BALANCED WAY. I swear. Although I know that lots of training programs involve MAINLY the snatch, clean+jerk, and high-bar back squat, this does not mean that these training programs don't have HEAVY PULLS and Romanian deadlifts to balance it out. The low-bar back squat is simply inefficient in training an olympic lifter to squat a weight up in an upright manner.

Mark Rippetoe teaches people how to be generally strong. He is NOT a sport-specific coach. He is a general strength-training coach.

[MadDogMalesh]

i like how every pl'er has to throw their 2 cents in and thinks they have revolutionary new ideas about how ol'ers should train.. just leave us alone. there's certain systems in places for precise reasons. it works.
and i think my lower back gets worked enough doing heavy cleans, thx

I was NEVER disagreeing with you and actually Im ditching PL completely because Im sick of it so thats why I said I was thinking like a PL'er... I don't know much about o training so thats why I was asking.

[marshalljman]

Kolecki squats "high bar", he just holds the bar lower on his back. By that, I mean he is squatting normally, not with the mechanics that rippetoe teaches.

I watched a few Kolecki squat videos. He doesn't do high bar and he doesn't do PL squats either. He does a hybrid squat of the two, very similar to how the european IPF guys squat. Low bar position, upright torso, with olympic lifting shoes.

[slowman41]

I watched a few Kolecki squat videos. He doesn't do high bar and he doesn't do PL squats either. He does a hybrid squat of the two, very similar to how the european IPF guys squat. Low bar position, upright torso, with olympic lifting shoes.

yeah, like I said: an olympic squat, just with the bar lower on his back.

He squats just like any other weightlifter does, just doesn't have the bar on his traps. Some suggest this may be due to his past back injury, long torso, personal preference, etc.

[marshalljman]

yeah, like I said: an olympic squat, just with the bar lower on his back.

He squats just like any other weightlifter does, just doesn't have the bar on his traps. Some suggest this may be due to his past back injury, long torso, personal preference, etc.

To each his own. As anyone could tell from some of my previous posts, I have experimented with all different types of squatting. However, the hybrid type just doesnt work for me. With olympic squats, I can spring out of the bottom but the top of the squat is more difficult but my positioning is such that I can still make it through. With PL squats if I make it 2 inches above parralel, I've made the lift but with the hybrid "IPF" type squat I spring out of the bottom but potentially miss high.

[J.L.C.]

Another factor to consider is that PL'ers compete in the squat - weightlifters don't.

Weightlifters use squats to assist the contested lifts.

If you want to move the most weight to increase your PL total, squatting low bar is probably a good call - since that's how almost everyone competing in the squat is doing it.

Difficulty with the top of the squat using a high bar probably indicates some weakness in maintaining an upright torso. Training to improve that postural weakness would likely add more to your weightlifting total than switching to a squat style that avoids the difficulty would.

[ViKtoricus]

To each his own. As anyone could tell from some of my previous posts, I have experimented with all different types of squatting. However, the hybrid type just doesnt work for me. With olympic squats, I can spring out of the bottom but the top of the squat is more difficult but my positioning is such that I can still make it through. With PL squats if I make it 2 inches above parralel, I've made the lift but with the hybrid "IPF" type squat I spring out of the bottom but potentially miss high.

Who cares? Why don't you pick one and progress? There have been guys who have gotten stronger doing whatever lifts with a good program.

[marshalljman]

Another factor to consider is that PL'ers compete in the squat - weightlifters don't.

Weightlifters use squats to assist the contested lifts.

If you want to move the most weight to increase your PL total, squatting low bar is probably a good call - since that's how almost everyone competing in the squat is doing it.

Difficulty with the top of the squat using a high bar probably indicates some weakness in maintaining an upright torso. Training to improve that postural weakness would likely add more to your weightlifting total than switching to a squat style that avoids the difficulty would.

I know. You are right. I guess, since I spent the majority of my lifting life as a powerlifter, I am a sucker for numbers and I like to treat the squat as a primary excercise. I should mention, for the purpose of giving credit where credit is due, that after tinkering with low bars the other day I have irriatated an old lower back tendon issue. I'm getting too old to jump into this intense training too soon.

[olyw8lifter]

Another factor to consider is that PL'ers compete in the squat - weightlifters don't.

Weightlifters use squats to assist the contested lifts.

If you want to move the most weight to increase your PL total, squatting low bar is probably a good call - since that's how almost everyone competing in the squat is doing it.

Difficulty with the top of the squat using a high bar probably indicates some weakness in maintaining an upright torso. Training to improve that postural weakness would likely add more to your weightlifting total than switching to a squat style that avoids the difficulty would.

Well said JLC!! I think most people who think that low-bar squatting is too worried about numbers rather than getting stronger in the lifts. There is a good thread on pendlay's forums where Glenn says that he had experimented with low bar squatting for his lifters and, although the squat numbers went up, their lifts did not!! That is good enough anectdotal evidence for me. In addition, as has been said ad nauseum, if the low bar squat was really all that, then the elite lifters from many other countries would be doing them, BUT THEY ARE NOT!!!

Have to spread the rep around!!

[John Prophet]

side issue, the top oly coaches arent trying to get "balanced" strength in the legs etc. It is understood that in top lifters the extensors are going to be way stronger than the flexors.

for example in Vorobyev's Textbook on Weightlifting (1978) it is stated:

"In weightlifters a high level of development of the strength of extensor muscles was noted. It exceeds the level of development of the flexor muscles by 2.86 times."


He goes on the explain that for example that thigh and hip extensors are 4.3x as strong as the flexors.

One reason why they do not expect there to be "balanced" strength is because the lifters are in weight classes and they only develop mass where it is needed to best do the lifts. So if a 85kilo lifter set about to really build up his "posterior chain" like a powerlifter would, he would be adding mass in certain areas and would probably get bumped up to the next weight class, yet he added that mass in an area that wont really give him better lifts.



He also said that low class lifters and high class lifters have about the same strength in the flexor muscles but that obviously the high class lifters are way stronger in the extensors

[J.L.C.]

for example in Vorobyev's Textbook on Weightlifting (1978) it is stated:

"In weightlifters a high level of development of the strength of extensor muscles was noted. It exceeds the level of development of the flexor muscles by 2.86 times."


He goes on the explain that for example that thigh and hip extensors are 4.3x as strong as the flexors.

One reason why they do not expect there to be "balanced" strength is because the lifters are in weight classes and they only develop mass where it is needed to best do the lifts. So if a 85kilo lifter set about to really build up his "posterior chain" like a powerlifter would, he would be adding mass in certain areas and would probably get bumped up to the next weight class, yet he added that mass in an area that wont really give him better lifts.

It's probably worth mentioning that thigh and hip extensors ARE the posterior chain.

Hip flexors need to be fast and efficient (for pulling the thighs up in order to move under the bar. But, because you aren't flexing the thighs against resistance, excessive strength there isn't likely necessary.

I think most people are misinterpreting this info as weightlifting being quad dominant. The quads are a knee extensor (leg extensor, where leg = tibia+fibula in anatomical terms).

The quads are a thigh flexor. The hams, glutes, and low back (i.e., posterior chain) are thigh extensors.

The information you posted actually shows that weightlifters are posterior chain dominant.

This isn't news to anyone who weightlifts or works with weightlifters, but it seems to be misinterpreted quite often by powerlifters, strength coaches, and people uniformed with regard to weightlifting.

[gewaltiger]

i just know i have a huge ass, so my posterior chain is probably efficient.

[J.L.C.]

i just know i have a huge ass, so my posterior chain is probably efficient.

All these guys who say the lifts don't work the posterior chain really need to attend a weightlifting meet.

Seriously.

[John Prophet]

It's probably worth mentioning that thigh and hip extensors ARE the posterior chain.

Hip flexors need to be fast and efficient (for pulling the thighs up in order to move under the bar. But, because you aren't flexing the thighs against resistance, excessive strength there isn't likely necessary.

I think most people are misinterpreting this info as weightlifting being quad dominant. The quads are a knee extensor (leg extensor, where leg = tibia+fibula in anatomical terms).

The quads are a thigh flexor. The hams, glutes, and low back (i.e., posterior chain) are thigh extensors.

The information you posted actually shows that weightlifters are posterior chain dominant.

This isn't news to anyone who weightlifts or works with weightlifters, but it seems to be misinterpreted quite often by powerlifters, strength coaches, and people uniformed with regard to weightlifting.

True true, I was looking at things backwards, lol. My fault.

but then he also says that the extensors of the "shin" exceed the antagonist by 5.4x one assumes he is referring to quad=5.4x ham there isnt he?

[marshalljman]

Who cares? Why don't you pick one and progress? There have been guys who have gotten stronger doing whatever lifts with a good program.

Your posts are starting to irritate me and from what I can tell some other people in different posts. You act like a know it all. Anything I have posted is relative to the question I was asking, which type of squat will be best for my lifting goals? So unless you have something purely informative to say, without the commentary, please don't comment on my posts.

[ViKtoricus]

Your posts are starting to irritate me and from what I can tell some other people in different posts. You act like a know it all. Anything I have posted is relative to the question I was asking, which type of squat will be best for my lifting goals? So unless you have something purely informative to say, without the commentary, please don't comment on my posts.

Don't get butthurt. The iron game isn't for pussies.

Plus, I do know better than you so shut up. I am incredibly weak and yet I have better technique than you with the olympic lifts.

[marshalljman]

Don't get butthurt. The iron game isn't for pussies.

Plus, I do know better than you so shut up. I am incredibly weak and yet I have better technique than you with the olympic lifts.

First of all, I never claimed to know better than you. Second, I'm sure you do have better technique then me. Why the hell do you think I'm on here asking for advice? Third you just proved your immatuity to everyone. All I asked for was less unneccesary commentary.

I can't stand people that talk ****(eg Don't get butthurt. The iron game isn't for pussies) when I know you would be significantly reluctant to say in person.That's what I call E-balls. For your information, I have been lifting since you were 6 years old and I know what serious lifting entails. Just because I am new to olympic lifts is no reason to discount my credibility.

[boykid28]

clicked on the thread expecting one thing and got another. dude if u want to get better at this then u got to just do the lifts.

ohhh and i dont understand how or why guys are jumping on the quad dominant bandwagon and posting literature. if im not mistaken, dont you have to lift the weight off the floor 1st? i was wondered why my @$$ was getting fatter.

- @gewalter: ill race you to a fatter @$$.

[ViKtoricus]

Settle down kiddo. I thought you were a 'super genius?' Geniuses have self-control and open-mindedness. OP is asking oly-related question because maybe he is contemplating joining the dark side. Ain't nuttin wrong with that. I'd love to see our ranks grow in number.

We would love to see your level of expertise, oh highness, so how about posting some vids? Many of us here have posted vids.

I would but I'm really weak to be honest. I know I'd be able to clean+jerk at least 225 pounds within a year or two of consistent training, but I'm really weak right now...

[ViKtoricus]

First of all, you are nowhere near an expert in olympic weightlifting!! That's fact, no question!! There are people on this board much more knowledgable than you in all things related to Oly lifting!!

Second, you don't deserve respect when you post sh$t like this, and I will in no way give it to you!!

[marshalljman]

Let's look at it this way.

YOU = GOOD LIFTER OF STUFF. HAVE GREAT OVERALL EXPERIENCE IN POWERLIFTING/WHATEVER.

ME = EXPERT IN OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING.

YOU = POSTING AT OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING FORUM. SHOW SOME ****ING RESPECT.

ME = THE EXPERT IN THE OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING FORUM. I DEMAND RESPECT. YOU ARE MY UNDERLING.

I never discounted your opinions and in fact, I have thanked you in other posts for your advice. What I don't appreciate is your horrible attitude. You've done it to me and I have seen you do it in other posts. I would never **** on you if you had a question for me that I had knowledge in.

Ohh and I hardly think there is anyone besides yourself that would credit you as being an EXPERT in olympic weightlifting. Frankly, you sound like a Low IQ, arrogant waste of air to me.

[NorwichGrad]

I would but I'm really weak to be honest. I know I'd be able to clean+jerk at least 225 pounds within a year or two of consistent training, but I'm really weak right now...

That's okay. We understand.

Here is link to the video you posted in the powerlfiting section showing those guys how to squat. Be careful next time. You could get hurt.

[jcameron28]

I would but I'm really weak to be honest. I know I'd be able to clean+jerk at least 225 pounds within a year or two of consistent training, but I'm really weak right now...

lol not sure if srs

[Retardo-pex]

I would but I'm really weak to be honest. I know I'd be able to clean+jerk at least 225 pounds within a year or two of consistent training, but I'm really weak right now...

Then what exactly makes you think you can go around telling other people the iron game isn't for pussies when you seem to have a very limited experience in said game?