DOMS - Where does it come from?

[Marius_Ursus]

This question has been surfacing in my mind for years. Conventional wisdom, which isn't really wisdom at all, is that it's lactate (usually mislabeled as "lactic acid") build-up in the muscle. The real truth of the matter is that no one knows what causes it. However, I hit on an idea last night that I'd like some others to chime in on.

One of my friends asked me why his hamstrings were so sore from pushing a wheelbarrow when he'd previously been doing much harder work and thought he shouldn't have been sore. I explained how adaptation has to do with how the muscle is used, and then like a flash it occurred to me that since DOMS is inevitably connected to doing something different that the pain is actually nerve inflammation and has nothing to do with the muscle fibers themselves.

That's about as far as I've taken the thought so far.

For all I know this could be another one of those, "It's long been known..." ideas that I seem to have from time to time...

[dazlittle]

I was always lead to believe that "Lactate" "Lactic Acid" build up in muscles dissipated within the hour so couldn't be a contributing factor to DOMS.

Other than that I have no other input!!!

On a side note, I have been blasting my legs for the last 12 months with gradually decreasing DOMS to the point where I don't really get anything that is noticable however on Sunday I decided I'd do a couple of sets of walking lunges, Monday morning I got out of bed and could hardly walk my glutes were killing me and still are now!

[WonderPug]

At least six hypothesized theories have been proposed for the mechanism of DOMS, namely: lactic acid, muscle spasm, connective tissue damage, muscle damage, inflammation and the enzyme efflux theories. However, an integration of two or more theories is likely to explain the sensation of delayed onset muscle soreness.

[murfeedee]

i comes from lifting weights yae yaaeee



ur welcome op hope this helped

[angimal]

DOMS are a gift from God...other than that, I got nuthin'.
I do know when I'm on a program, after about 4 weeks I will not experience leg DOMS. Switching up the program invariably brings those bad boys back though, so your nerve inflammation theory certainly makes sense.
In summation, I realize I had nothing constructive to add to the discussion, I just wanted to chime in

[ironwill2008]

I'm with the Pug; the cause has yet to be defined.

The only certainty so far is that Lactic Acid isn't the cause, since it dissipates so rapidly.

[BestYearEver]

Why does DOMS not affect all muscle groups? And have nothing to do with going to failure? Is this just me, or true for everyone? And what does that say about the possible cause? Maybe different mechanisms -- why pick just one -- at different times, or maybe no one factor is the cause, but only a combination?

I have never had DOMS in arms or chest. Rarely shoulders and upper back. But much more frequent for hamstrings -- switching from good mornings to RDL or vice versa will cause DOMS almost every time. The kind where you have to use your arms to lower yourself to the toilet (guys have it much easier in this regard ). And it takes several workouts for this to subside, with DOMS shorter and less intense each time.. Always seems disproportionate compared to the difficulty of the work. Maybe certain muscle fiber types react differently?

All of these tend to be 6-12 rep exercises. Can't attribute DOMS to very heavy, low rep work. That soreness shows up earlier, like the same evening of a workout day, even if worse the next day. Has anyone else noticed this?

[bigtallox]

Why does DOMS not affect all muscle groups?

Most likely it's a result of your specific training routine. After my last strongman show, I can promise you DOMS can and does occur in every muscle, there is not some sort of physical law that says it cannot ( if there was, I just disproved it ).

And have nothing to do with going to failure? Is this just me, or true for everyone?

Yes, it doesn't necessarily have to do with going to failure.

The kind where you have to use your arms to lower yourself to the toilet (guys have it much easier in this regard ).

You're mistaken. I'm 6'8" tall, do you realize how far down toilets are for me when I'm sore from squatting?

Can't attribute DOMS to very heavy, low rep work. That soreness shows up earlier, like the same evening of a workout day, even if worse the next day. Has anyone else noticed this?

No, for me DOMS caused by going for 1 rep max PR's always takes several days to show up.

[brizey]

I have never had DOMS in arms or chest.

!!!!

Those are two locations I am most likely to get it. Especially chest if I have taken some time off. There is pretty much nothing in my non-gym life that I use my chest for, so it takes a beating when I get back to the gym after a time off.

You have not lived until you took a vike so you could straighten your arm enough to wipe your butt (true brizey college story!).


And on topic: wonder why they don't know? It is pretty easy to induce in a subject, and is pretty much a universally experienced phenomenon.

[ironwill2008]

Why does DOMS not affect all muscle groups? And have nothing to do with going to failure? Is this just me, or true for everyone? And what does that say about the possible cause? Maybe different mechanisms -- why pick just one -- at different times, or maybe no one factor is the cause, but only a combination?

IMO, the extreme differences in the variations that cause DOMS in some trainees, and none at all in others (and indeed there are some, like myself, who hardly ever get DOMS), is the reason why the cause(s) have yet to be nailed down.



One other thing about DOMS is certain though; it's not at all necessary for it to be present for growth to occur.

[bigtallox]

and indeed there are some, like myself, who hardly ever get DOMS

I never did until I switched to strongman.

[Marius_Ursus]

I get DOMS every time I do anything different. After years of lifting, even playing Whiffle Ball is enough of a change in recruitment for me to get DOMS in my lats and arms.

[Karl_Hungus]

I've read that although the cause is unknown, that one cause might be micro-tears in the muscle tissue.....

[flat6nut]

Most likely it's a result of your specific training routine. After my last strongman show, I can promise you DOMS can and does occur in every muscle, there is not some sort of physical law that says it cannot ( if there was, I just disproved it ).




Yes, it doesn't necessarily have to do with going to failure.




You're mistaken. I'm 6'8" tall, do you realize how far down toilets are for me when I'm sore from squatting?



No, for me DOMS caused by going for 1 rep max PR's always takes several days to show up.

Public sinks should be your friend.

[tmonkey]

squats
my legs are killing me and i have been doing them the same way for about a year now


let me know when you have it all figured out, i would like to cut down on the days for squat doms

[Marius_Ursus]

The mystery's been solved. I turned my DOMS over and found, "Made in China" stamped on it.

[candyflip69]

I get DOMS every time I do anything different. After years of lifting, even playing Whiffle Ball is enough of a change in recruitment for me to get DOMS in my lats and arms.

Same - ever tried weight training and cardio for 12 months and then in Winter, heading up for some snowboarding or skiing and thinking "I'm gonna handle this no trouble", and then next day after the first day on the snow, EVERYTHING hurts?

Every muscle has been recruited here, and they have all been pushed to temporary failure, usually a couple of times or more, during this prolonged, harsh exercise period.

So my thoughts are, DOMS can be caused by new stresses on well trained muscles. The question, and the relativity part is, what kind of training did they have before the new stress was applied to them?. If it was the same type of stress, DOMS may not occur. If it is unknown, or has been absent for some time, DOMS will most probably occur in that muscle(s).

[_XYDREX_]

Although not proven, I'd say it is fiber damage that causes it.

Here are some pics of fiber damage-


Normal sarcomeres


Moderate disruption


Severe disruption.


The difference in some people feeling it while not others, &/or or some people feeling more soreness in certain areas while less/none in others, I believe comes from differences in the feedback receptors that let you know there has been damage. Just like damage in any other part of the body is reported to the brain as pain signals, DOMS is the same. Different people have different pain thresholds, with DOMS the sensitivity between people varies much more I think.

After a training session many people report more soreness if they haven't slept or eaten properly, this can mean delay of fiber repair. A reduction in inflammation (which is the immune system reducing its response) can happen even without adequate nutrition & rest, while increased protein synthesis for repair of fibers cannot.

The reason why some people do not feel any soreness till a few days later is simply because the signal transmission is impeded by some of the metabolic by-products. Some people need the inflammation to drop before the signal get transmitted properly for the brain to start to register the soreness, but again some are more sensitive than others.

So to summarize, there are differences between people in how many feedback receptors they have & also there are differences in how the metabolic by-products interfere with the signal transmission of these receptors.

[thomasale]

I'll tell you this much I squatted on monday and cant wait til they fade a little!

[taylor9569]

I get DOMS after every workout. Usually they don't really set in until the second day after I've worked the body part.
Even at the moment, although the weight I am using is around half what I usually lift (rehabbing an MCL tear ) I still get DOMS.

[2nd_chance]

DOMS comes from the Iron gods.

[taylor9569]

DOMS comes from the Iron gods.

The gods must be pleased with me

[NYkarate]

It is pretty amazing that they haven't isolated and proved the cause of DOMS yet, but they sure use a lot of "science" to sell supplements.

[candyflip69]

It is pretty amazing that they haven't isolated and proved the cause of DOMS yet, but they sure use a lot of "science" to sell supplements.

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. I DO know how to substanitally reduce DOMS using supplements, for myself, however.

[mitch9518]

[QUOTE=_XYDREX_;687776811]Although not proven, I'd say it is fiber damage that causes it.

Here are some pics of fiber damage-


Normal sarcomeres


Moderate disruption


Severe disruption.




So does this give weight to the argument that have DOMs means future muscle growth?

[jdonyx]

Very timely question as I was wondering the same thing myself. But for me it is more of an issue having to do with inconsistence and working out. Since I fail to keep myself on track of 4-5 days at least working out, it takes me weeks to feel better and lose some of the effects of DOMS.

I am just looking for recovery methods to help get over them. Besides the obvious point of being consistent. It feels good and bad to have them....

[Marius_Ursus]

Although not proven, I'd say it is fiber damage that causes it.

Here are some pics of fiber damage-


So does this give weight to the argument that have DOMs means future muscle growth?

No. Muscle tissue disruption is not the conclusive cause of DOMs and when you train consistently for long enough, DOMs may disappear completely only to return if you do something different (like my lifting weights v. Whifflw ball example), but you won't stop getting bigger and stronger in the absence of DOMs.

[JerryB]

Although not proven, I'd say it is fiber damage that causes it.

I have read that micro tears in muscle fibers may contribute to DOMS. The disruption in the muscles cell as moderate disruption appears to be along the Z-line, dark line.




Combine the above with the mechanism of Z disk splitting micro tears may contribute to DOMS.




I also found the following:

The myofibrillar and cytoskeletal alterations observed in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) caused by eccentric exercise have generally been considered to represent damage (e.g. Clarkson and Hubal 2002, Proske and Allen 2005). One basis for this assumption is the pioneering work by J Friden (1983) “Exercise induced Muscle Soreness”. Fridén performed ultrastructural studies on biopsies from volunteering students who either performed downhill running or reversed biking, both events leading to eccentric muscle actions that gave rise to substantial delayed onset muscle soreness. He observed that the myofibrillar Z discs, the anchoring structure for the thin actin filaments of subsequent sarcomeres were altered. They were broadened and irregular and it appeared as if the material of the Z discs had become extended into the sarcomeres, giving name to the term Z disc streaming and Z disc disruption.

Source: http://www.icsspe.org/bulletin/bulle...o=56&l=2&par=1


Is there an expert on muscle cell physiology in the house?

[_XYDREX_]

So does this give weight to the argument that have DOMs means future muscle growth?

No. Tearing down fibers is a necessary but not sufficient condition for stimulating growth. You have to tear them down more than you did before while remaining within your recovery parameters. This means progression and of course with adequate nutrition. This may or may not give soreness depending on the person.

You can have soreness with no growth - You can do an activity that tears down fibers, creates soreness & the body is simply re-built to its previous state with no new growth.

The body's first priority is to recover to its previous state, you have to exceed your previous limits for gains in strength & size to occur. The fact that doing something that maintains your current state can make you sore is irrelevant to the argument.

No. Muscle tissue disruption is not the conclusive cause of DOMs and when you train consistently for long enough, DOMs may disappear completely only to return if you do something different (like my lifting weights v. Whifflw ball example), but you won't stop getting bigger and stronger in the absence of DOMs.

Yes I know its not conclusive, just a theory.
I never implied you can't get bigger without soreness, & I never implied that you don't have fiber damage if you don't feel soreness, this is one sore strawman. The mystery is all in the pain receptors & the thresholds for triggering these receptors.

Doing something very different will give anyone soreness initially, then perhaps never again. The body can adjust its thresholds for these pain receptors, some people more than others.

For example if you never do endurance stuff (e.g. 50 rep sets or activity equivalent to this), then initially there will be soreness because fibers that normally are never challenged are now significantly disrupted. The body lets you know something unusual has happened, from never pushing them to suddenly disrupting them considerably. After a few session the soreness may completely go away & never return if you continue the activity, even with gradual progression. The reason for this is that the threshold has been adjusted, there is no longer the same need to signal the brain that something very unusual has happened.

Even if you gradually make performance progress to guarantee gains (e.g. add weight to the bar in any rep range), the differences in disruptions will never be as great as the difference from not training at all (in a certain way) to training the first time, or after a long break. So no training to session 1 gives a difference much greater than say session 49 to session 50 doing the exact same thing even though you may have added 5lbs in session 50 . Thresholds can be adjusted based on relative differences.

These threshold vary a lot between people. The pain receptors detecting short-term wear damage from physical exertion are not as consistent in the population compared to say pain receptors for injury & disease. This makes perfect sense form an evolutionary point of view because far more people have perished from impact injury or illness than from overtraining LOL. Human senses are far more refined & consistent for impact injury, severe strain/tear & illness, not as much for short-term recoverable wear which is what training targets.

*Soreness is from muscle fiber damage.
*There is big variation in the population in the pain receptors for muscle fiber damage.
*Pain receptor signals for soreness can be delayed by metabolic by-products for a day or so (DOMS).
*Everybody gets sore when they first start training.
*Everybody gets sore when they do something very different that they don't normally do.
*With consistent training, the threshold in some people for pain receptors is adjusted more than others & they never again feel soreness even with gradual incremental progress.
*For gains performance progress is required, this may or may not give soreness.
*Soreness can still occur in some people just maintaining with no progress.

[ntrllftr]

I'd like some others to chime in.

I really want to believe that it's from the torn fibers repairing over old repaired scared tissue making me bigger.