Clean Bulk vs Clean Cut......bodyfat dropping

[sicktght311]

Ok so i'm finishing up my 3 month cut at the end of april, and i've done pretty damn well. Lost over 13lbs so far on my way to my goal of 10% bodyfat. Getting very close. Now my GOAL once i hit that milestone is to start a clean bulk so i can start putting on nothing but Lean Mass. Eat super clean, eat 500cals over your maintenace, and lift hard. This is the general consensus of the way to do things.

BUT

I always hear comments about how people are suggesting you clean bulk on say 3000 calories or whatever, and the more mass you put on, the more fat will come off. Ok so if Joe Schmoe is at 14% body fat, with an ultimate goal of 10%, isnt that to say then that he should just eat above his maintenance super clean, lift hard, build muscle, and his body will drop to 10% anyway? Then why do people cut calories to cut their bodyfat, and always prescribe to the belief that "calories under maintenance = lower your bodyfat, calories over your maintenance = Gain more mass". Couldnt you just get within a few % of your goal, and start clean bulking to put on mass while cutting fat still?

I dunno, the whole thing just confuses me. Obviously i've been cutting utilizing reduced cals, high protein, and lifting hard. Id love to start clean bulking now as i need more mass on my frame, but i also do want to continue down to 10% six pack territory as well. To me mass means nothing if you arent cut. But thats just my personal viewpoint on where i'd want to be physically speaking. Not speaking for others

[TrueBDB]

It is highly doubtful that someone eating over maintenance will continue to drop bodyfat.

[sicktght311]

It is highly doubtful that someone eating over maintenance will continue to drop bodyfat.

I pretty much agree. It goes against conventional logic. But then again, literally everywhere i go i read this, whether its mags (yes its a lot of broscience), posters here, or just in general with diet/workout articles. I always hear, "eat clean, lift hard, and you'll grow while still burning fat". I mean it makes somewhat sense. Your body needs energy to grow and get you through the workout, it turns to your excess calories, and also your fat stores for fast expendable energy. But still, something isnt right

[del35blvd]

same question as op

[cyco85]

Your BF% is unlikely to drop if you're eating at a surplus--e.g. gaining mass (the composition of that mass is yet to be determined). For this to happen, your lean mass gain must be at a rate much higher than fat gain.

Playing with some numbers. Take me for example:

185 @ 18% BF = 33.3 lbs of fat.
Say, I bulk to 190 pounds. To remain at 18% BF or under:
190 @ 18% BF = 34.2 lbs of fat.

So, of the 5 pounds of mass gained, less than 0.9 lbs of that can be fat if I am to drop BF%. This is very unlikely to happen.

[sicktght311]

Your BF% is unlikely to drop if you're eating at a surplus--e.g. gaining mass (the composition of that mass is yet to be determined). For this to happen, your lean mass gain must be at a rate much higher than fat gain.

Playing with some numbers. Take me for example:

185 @ 18% BF = 33.3 lbs of fat.
Say, I bulk to 190 pounds. To remain at 18% BF or under:
190 @ 18% BF = 34.2 lbs of fat.

So, of the 5 pounds of mass gained, less than 0.9 lbs of that can be fat if I am to drop BF%. This is very unlikely to happen.

Yeah i gotta agree with those numbers. To be honest, part of the reason i havent started bulking yet, is because i know that once i hit 10% or lower, its not gonna stay there long once i bulk. I just wanna try to get the mass i put on as LEAN as possible. I'm planning on an 8 week bulk to see what kind of mass i can put on. If my maintenance will be around 2200 cals, i'll be bulking around 2700, but i *plan* to have all of that diet come from clean foods. Absolutely nothing processed, or minimal at best.

[tven]

Same dilemma here.


PrimaryGoal: Want to lose love handles completely , which would mean BF has to drop further.
SecondaryGoal: Put on some lean mass and not look so skinny.

Current:
Tried to cut for 3 months at around 1600-1800 calories/day.
Cross fit/ Cardio(Cycling) workouts for 90 days (6days/week). Occasional lifting. Each workout would burn anywhere between 500 to 600. Sometimes twice a day.
Down from around 17-18% to 12-14% .


But at 5'10" and 150 LBS now, i am a skinny guy. And I dont want to become any skinnier.

Next Phase: ?

Would the following help drop BF further and gain some Lean Mass?

Add 400 to 500 calories (clean ofcourse). So total around 2000-2200 calories.
4 days of lifting
2-3 days of cardio

Pic attached.

[Electricheadd]

Yeah i gotta agree with those numbers. To be honest, part of the reason i havent started bulking yet, is because i know that once i hit 10% or lower, its not gonna stay there long once i bulk. I just wanna try to get the mass i put on as LEAN as possible. I'm planning on an 8 week bulk to see what kind of mass i can put on. If my maintenance will be around 2200 cals, i'll be bulking around 2700, but i *plan* to have all of that diet come from clean foods. Absolutely nothing processed, or minimal at best.

The cleanliness of your bulk is a function of how many calories over maintenance you eat. The slower you do it the less fat you will gain. A recomp would be the ultimate in clean bulk since you are gaining no additional weight but its slower. The pro's are you get to look good all the time and have very little cutting to do. The con's are its recognized as a lot slower way to progress compared to a bulk/cut cycle.

[stillhot]

Your BF% is unlikely to drop if you're eating at a surplus--e.g. gaining mass (the composition of that mass is yet to be determined). For this to happen, your lean mass gain must be at a rate much higher than fat gain.

Playing with some numbers. Take me for example:

185 @ 18% BF = 33.3 lbs of fat.
Say, I bulk to 190 pounds. To remain at 18% BF or under:
190 @ 18% BF = 34.2 lbs of fat.

So, of the 5 pounds of mass gained, less than 0.9 lbs of that can be fat if I am to drop BF%. This is very unlikely to happen.

well if most of the mass that a person gains while bulking will probably be mass then why eat over maintainence? shouldnt ur body just use ur current body fat for energy to build lean mass? this way ur burning fat and building muscle at the same time. this makes the most sense.

[sicktght311]

well if most of the mass that a person gains while bulking will probably be mass then why eat over maintainence? shouldnt ur body just use ur current body fat for energy to build lean mass? this way ur burning fat and building muscle at the same time. this makes the most sense.

Pretty sure the body doesnt actually use the fat it burns to in turn build muscle. It uses the fat to power you through whatever stress you're putting on your body in the form of energy, but the muscle building comes from the nutrition IE protein, carbs, and fat. The actual fact stores in the body are for energy purposes

[cyco85]

well if most of the mass that a person gains while bulking will probably be mass then why eat over maintainence? shouldnt ur body just use ur current body fat for energy to build lean mass? this way ur burning fat and building muscle at the same time. this makes the most sense.

For your body to even attack the fat stores in the first place it needs to be in a deficit. There are certain exceptions given specific conditions, especially in the beginning. Your statement is equivalent to "Why do we even store body fat?" Cuz of evolution. As stated above, think about a recomp in terms of structure and functionality. You don't gain mass but the composition of the mass changes... which is extremely important. It also takes much longer and is not as rewarding because you don't see weekly (or so) progress. However, it makes the most sense long term.

[stillhot]

For your body to even attack the fat stores in the first place it needs to be in a deficit. There are certain exceptions given specific conditions, especially in the beginning. Your statement is equivalent to "Why do we even store body fat?" Cuz of evolution. As stated above, think about a recomp in terms of structure and functionality. You don't gain mass but the composition of the mass changes... which is extremely important. It also takes much longer and is not as rewarding because you don't see weekly (or so) progress. However, it makes the most sense long term.

it makes more sense to workout within same calorie range and be patient you mean? i understand how its annoying weighting to see the scale say 210 when ur only at 170, that i get. i just dont want to get to 190 and be like damn im fat, now i gotta lose all this fat and hope i keep some of the little muscle i gained.

[cyco85]

it makes more sense to workout within same calorie range and be patient you mean? i understand how its annoying weighting to see the scale say 210 when ur only at 170, that i get. i just dont want to get to 190 and be like damn im fat, now i gotta lose all this fat and hope i keep some of the little muscle i gained.

If you gain 20 pounds over a 6 month period with a strong lifting routine, you will not be fat at 190, you will look a little inflated but follow it up with a 6-8 week cut and you should look phenomenal. If you gain it over a 2-3 month period, you will probably be fat. It's not as complex as so many people make it. The overwhelming principle here is this:

If you eat 500 calories over maintenance per day you're going to gain about 1 lb per week of MASS. Now, the issue is the composition of said mass. If you're not lifting regularly and working to build muscle, nearly 100% of that mass will be fat. However, if you're lifting and stressing the muscle, then a good portion of the mass is going to be composed of lean tissue. That's how our bodies work through thousands of years of evolution.

As far as muscle loss during your cut, I wouldn't worry about it. That doesn't become an issue until you're treading into single digit BF% when the rate of your cut needs to be very slow (read Lyle McDonald's book on "Stubborn Fat")

[stillhot]

If you gain 20 pounds over a 6 month period with a strong lifting routine, you will not be fat at 190, you will look a little inflated but follow it up with a 6-8 week cut and you should look phenomenal. If you gain it over a 2-3 month period, you will probably be fat. It's not as complex as so many people make it. The overwhelming principle here is this:

If you eat 500 calories over maintenance per day you're going to gain about 1 lb per week of MASS. Now, the issue is the composition of said mass. If you're not lifting regularly and working to build muscle, nearly 100% of that mass will be fat. However, if you're lifting and stressing the muscle, then a good portion of the mass is going to be composed of lean tissue. That's how our bodies work through thousands of years of evolution.

As far as muscle loss during your cut, I wouldn't worry about it. That doesn't become an issue until you're treading into single digit BF% when the rate of your cut needs to be very slow (read Lyle McDonald's book on "Stubborn Fat")

thanks