What happens if you dont eat enough fats and eat low carbs, can u still be keto?

[alex2363]

aw come on now, i've never called anyone names. that little scrap i had with alexl before, well.. he started it
i know, i was neutral,lol
way to go man. i also had hypertension that has since been cured.

thanx....

[alex2363]

aw come on now, i've never called anyone names. that little scrap i had with alexl before, well.. he started it

way to go man. i also had hypertension that has since been cured.

i know, i was neutral on that debate,lol

[alex2363]

if you dont go into ketosis, however still hold a minimal carbohydrate intake and a 500cal deficit.. does the depletion workout and subsequent carbup / weekend load have the same effect?

good question................

[Inthearena]

if you dont go into ketosis, however still hold a minimal carbohydrate intake and a 500cal deficit.. does the depletion workout and subsequent carbup / weekend load have the same effect?

I'm going to go with no. If your body isn't in ketosis this means you aren't creating ketones which means you aren't fat adapted. When you then deplete and refeed most of the carbs may go to glycogen but I would bet more is stored than if you were previously in keto. Also, any excess fat consumed will be more easily stored because of lack of fat adaptation.

[Psyfactor312]

You would deplete muscle/liver glycogen and carb up just fine.

Although, that would suggest impaired fat usage and you would likely see more lbm lost to gluconeogenesis. That is just a swag though.

Sorry I didn't get the last thing you said; if you eat a bit more than 30g of carbs and the next day, do a brutal depletion work out till you cannot lift a finger...do you have more risk of a carb overspill (because you were not in ketosis the day before) ?

[Atavis]

No, I have seen no evidence that you would see that.

[alex2363]

I'm going to go with no. If your body isn't in ketosis this means you aren't creating ketones which means you aren't fat adapted. When you then deplete and refeed most of the carbs may go to glycogen but I would bet more is stored than if you were previously in keto. Also, any excess fat consumed will be more easily stored because of lack of fat adaptation.

isnt there a timing thing, as i understand you must deplete and then take protien and wait 2 hrs before carb up.

[FattyBastard]

So if i eat 180grams of protein, 20 grams of carbs and only 50 grams of fat -> no ketosis for me?

[Atavis]

So if i eat 180grams of protein, 20 grams of carbs and only 50 grams of fat -> no ketosis for me?

That would lead to ketosis.

[FattyBastard]

thanks Atavis for the answer!

i tried to rep you, but not sure if i succeeded :/

[alex2363]

That would lead to ketosis.

thanks Atavis for the answer!

i tried to rep you, but not sure if i succeeded :/

good answer, i didnt know that

[alex2363]

So if i eat 180grams of protein, 20 grams of carbs and only 50 grams of fat -> no ketosis for me?

reped for good question

[MikeK46]

i see. i skimmed thru the study and it looks good.

Low carb or ketogenic diets work for one or more of the following reasons:

1. Most people get better results from low carb diets for the simple fact that their diets improve when they make the switch. Protein and veggie intakes tend to go up a lot and this leads to much better satiety and diet compliance compared to a generic high carb diet.

2. Is there a metabolic advantage to low carb diets? Of course there is. As protein intake makes up a larger percentage of calories consumed, diet induced thermogenesis (DIT) increases. A 2000-calorie diet compromised of 40% protein is superior to a 2000-calorie diet compromised of 20% protein. The difference would roughly be on the order of 95 calories in favor of the first diet. A small difference (small enough to not be detected in studies), but a difference nonetheless. However, the metabolic advantage is due to protein and not specifically related to the carb content of the diet like some people want to believe. If we compare a high carb, high protein (40%), low fat diet to low carb, high protein (40%), high fat diet we wouldn't see a detectable difference in DIT.

3. Some people do in fact feel better on low carb diets and it has nothing to do with the greater satiety from increased protein or veggie intakes. Just like some people feel better on higher carb diets. Problem is a lot of people tend to place themselves in the low carb-category without really having tried the middle ground. My experience is that a lot of people who readily label themselves as "carb-sensitive" do very well on a moderate carb-approach with the great majority of carbs coming from tubers, fruit, veggies and the occasional starch source.

http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html
http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/mal...arb-diets.html

[alex2363]

Low carb or ketogenic diets work for one or more of the following reasons:

1. Most people get better results from low carb diets for the simple fact that their diets improve when they make the switch. Protein and veggie intakes tend to go up a lot and this leads to much better satiety and diet compliance compared to a generic high carb diet.

2. Is there a metabolic advantage to low carb diets? Of course there is. As protein intake makes up a larger percentage of calories consumed, diet induced thermogenesis (DIT) increases. A 2000-calorie diet compromised of 40% protein is superior to a 2000-calorie diet compromised of 20% protein. The difference would roughly be on the order of 95 calories in favor of the first diet. A small difference (small enough to not be detected in studies), but a difference nonetheless. However, the metabolic advantage is due to protein and not specifically related to the carb content of the diet like some people want to believe. If we compare a high carb, high protein (40%), low fat diet to low carb, high protein (40%), high fat diet we wouldn't see a detectable difference in DIT.

3. Some people do in fact feel better on low carb diets and it has nothing to do with the greater satiety from increased protein or veggie intakes. Just like some people feel better on higher carb diets. Problem is a lot of people tend to place themselves in the low carb-category without really having tried the middle ground. My experience is that a lot of people who readily label themselves as "carb-sensitive" do very well on a moderate carb-approach with the great majority of carbs coming from tubers, fruit, veggies and the occasional starch source.

http://www.leangains.com/2009/02/low-carb-talibans.html
http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/mal...arb-diets.html

nice to know this, repps

[Ralph Wiggum]

Ketosis is a side effect not a primary determinant of the diet's success.

dude.. up until i read this post i wasn't going to say anything, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[alex2363]

dude.. up until i read this post i wasn't going to say anything, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

it seems right to me, why not?

[Ralph Wiggum]

it seems right to me, why not?

the entire goal of ketogenic diet is to get into ketosis. switching from your brain's primary source (carbohydrates: glucose, etc.) to fat (lipids).

maybe he is just not coming across correctly, but i dont know what he is talking about.


you will not lose tons of fat without being in ketosis. thats the entire point of the diet.

[alex2363]

the entire goal of ketogenic diet is to get into ketosis. switching from your brain's primary source (carbohydrates: glucose, etc.) to fat (lipids).

maybe he is just not coming across correctly, but i dont know what he is talking about.


you will not lose tons of fat without being in ketosis. thats the entire point of the diet.

true, but any calories deficit will do that, wat he says is that keto diet or any diets are just pathways to that.

[Atavis]

dude.. up until i read this post i wasn't going to say anything, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Actually I am pretty well known for knowing what the f*ck I am talking about.

the entire goal of ketogenic diet is to get into ketosis. switching from your brain's primary source (carbohydrates: glucose, etc.) to fat (lipids).

maybe he is just not coming across correctly, but i dont know what he is talking about.


you will not lose tons of fat without being in ketosis. thats the entire point of the diet.

No. Ketosis is a correlary effect, not a causal effect. Calorie deficit is a causal...

[Atavis]

true, but any calories deficit will do that, wat he says is that keto diet or any diets are just pathways to that.

Correct

[Ralph Wiggum]

true, but any calories deficit will do that, wat he says is that keto diet or any diets are just pathways to that.

my understanding is that he is saying

"ketosis is a byproduct of a ketogenic diet."

[alex2363]

my understanding is that he is saying

"ketosis is a byproduct of a ketogenic diet."

in general its a way of losing weight, its not byproducts. its an approach of using your body's metabolism or make-up to enhance the weight loss process

[Ralph Wiggum]

No. Ketosis is a correlary effect, not a causal effect. Calorie deficit is a causal...

it depends on what you are talking about. it's entirely possible to maintain and bulk on a ketogenic diet.

[Atavis]

it depends on what you are talking about. it's entirely possible to maintain and bulk on a ketogenic diet.

Well now I kind of feel like this is a circular conversation. You are now repeating what I said. Ketosis is a corollary effect stemming from carb deprivation. It is not required to lose fat. While eating low carb you can gain or lose or maintain weight.

[alex2363]

Well now I kind of feel like this is a circular conversation. You are now repeating what I said. Ketosis is a corollary effect stemming from carb deprivation. It is not required to lose fat. While eating low carb you can gain or lose or maintain weight.

i concur

[FattyBastard]

The Ketogenic Diet, Lyle McDonald page112;

"All of this data suggests that dietary fat is not a anecessary part of a ketogenic dier from a metabolic or adaptational standpoint as ketosis will readily develop without the consumption of dietary fat.From a strictly metabolic standpoint,there appears to be no difference in a ketogenic diet which contains fat and one which does not contain fat"

/thread ?

[alex2363]

The Ketogenic Diet, Lyle McDonald page112;

"All of this data suggests that dietary fat is not a anecessary part of a ketogenic dier from a metabolic or adaptational standpoint as ketosis will readily develop without the consumption of dietary fat.From a strictly metabolic standpoint,there appears to be no difference in a ketogenic diet which contains fat and one which does not contain fat"

/thread ?

sooo, in general as long as you dont consume carbs you can be in ketosis?

[FattyBastard]

I guess fat is there to keep you full and it's necessary to produce hormones.. And with no fat in your diet you will be depressed, but no need to eat 200 grams of fat so you "eat fat to burn fat." Judging from Lyle McDonald is like the god of ketogenic diets and his books are the bibles of it,i doubt any broscience around the forums can prove him wrong.

[TonyBear]

Another great premise and argument of why the low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diets should and must be higher in fat intake, moderate in protein and low in carbs is because in order for the body to be in a efficient state of fat burning insulin levels should remain low. And according to nutrition science fats is the only macronutrient that doesn't have any rising effect on insulin, while protein and carbohydrates both rise the insulin levels. Before i thought that carbohydrates was the only macronutrient that elevated insulin. But from what i read in this website, protein can rise insulin levels. So that's why we can come to the conclusion that to be in a very efficient fat burning physiological state fat intake has to be higher, protein moderate, and carbs real low.


.

Here are a few posts that mention it but there are more. Just wondering if this is true and I thought the whole point of ketosis was to switch fuel sources to fat then why the need to enter ketosis if you can do it without the process of ketosis

[Atavis]

No. Bad conclusion.