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  1. #31
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Survive View Post
    Yes, I would agree that CKD is optimal, but it doesn't agree with me. I personally don't like the feeling associated with jumping in and out of ketosis. The 5 to 10lb jump in weight is not desirable either, in my case. Densely packed power in a small frame is my ideal in my sport. I'm building my career in and out of Thailand and China, where fighters are all fairly light. If I were anywhere else, I would go for size.

    Going 30+ days on no carbs gives me a cutting edge sensation. I think more quickly and I become more creative with my combinations. It's quite nice. Will I ever jump from 160lb to 175? I'm hoping for a breakthrough
    Who are you? You train/fight in Thailand?

    Honestly, I've never gone that long with 0 carbs. Most I've gone is 12 days on the Rapid Fat Loss Diet.
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  2. #32
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    excellent place to go for keto information, thanks for the hard work!
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  3. #33
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    REALLY good post. Thanks for all the info!
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  4. #34
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    I saw what you said to bootchie but I'm wondering what you woulD have changed about that section? I too am curious. I'm 172 hovering around 17% bf 18 years old and workout 3-4 times a week INTENSELY. I'd like to start Keto, what would you recommend for refeeding? Goal is cutting fat, have decent muscle and will worry about gaining size once I'm cut, cutting is my only concern right now. I also consume 100 grams of whey protein a day, comes it to about 480 calories a day for 100 grams of protein (according to ON's label at least) if that matters. Basically I've been working out intensely seeral times a week, keeping calories under maintenance and consuming needed protein, if I keep this routine up with Keto how often should I refers and for how long? What should my refeed consist of? Thanks a ton man awesome guide and epic cartoons haha
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by Tw1tcHy View Post
    I saw what you said to bootchie but I'm wondering what you woulD have changed about that section? I too am curious. I'm 172 hovering around 17% bf 18 years old and workout 3-4 times a week INTENSELY. I'd like to start Keto, what would you recommend for refeeding? Goal is cutting fat, have decent muscle and will worry about gaining size once I'm cut, cutting is my only concern right now. I also consume 100 grams of whey protein a day, comes it to about 480 calories a day for 100 grams of protein (according to ON's label at least) if that matters. Basically I've been working out intensely seeral times a week, keeping calories under maintenance and consuming needed protein, if I keep this routine up with Keto how often should I refers and for how long? What should my refeed consist of? Thanks a ton man awesome guide and epic cartoons haha
    i updated that section in the link. hopefully this makes it a bit clearer:

    A glycogen refeed is simply the ingestion of carbohydrates for a set period of time with the main intention of replenishing the glycogen-muscle stores.

    If you are unsure whether or not you should undergo a glycogen refeed, then you must ask yourself two questions:

    Question 1:
    Is your primary goal to increase muscle-mass, to decrease body-fat, or to simply maintain your current body composition and health?

    Question 2:
    Do you exercise and/or weight-train with high-intensity sometimes-often, low-moderate intensity sometimes-often, or do you not exercise at all?

    If your answer to question 1 was that your goal is to increase muscle-mass and/or your answer to question 2 was that you exercise or train with high-intensity sometimes-often, then a glycogen refeed every week once you have become fat-adapted would benefit you greatly. Fat-adaption usually occurs after 2-3 weeks of maintained ketosis. Here is an in-depth article on everything you need to know about glycogen refeeding written by Lyle Mcdonald himself: Training on the Ketogenic Diet

    If your answer to question 2 was that you do not exercise or weight-train, then you should not employ a glycogen refeed.

    If your answer to either question has not yet been addressed, then a glycogen refeed is unnecessary. If your main goal is to rid yourself of body-fat, then a glycogen refeed is counterproductive. If you exercise with low-moderate intensity sometimes-often, then a glycogen refeed is unnecessary though if you'd really like to refeed then a small refeed once every month should be more than sufficient.

    ...

    so basically to address you personally, yeah your goal is to lose body-fat, but you also train intensely sometimes-often so you probably should do a refeed every 1-2 weeks once you've become fat-adapted. check the article that Lyle wrote for any specifics on glycogen refeeds.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    i updated that section in the link. hopefully this makes it a bit clearer:

    A glycogen refeed is simply the ingestion of carbohydrates for a set period of time with the main intention of replenishing the glycogen-muscle stores.

    If you are unsure whether or not you should undergo a glycogen refeed, then you must ask yourself two questions:

    Question 1:
    Is your primary goal to increase muscle-mass, to decrease body-fat, or to simply maintain your current body composition and health?

    Question 2:
    Do you exercise and/or weight-train with high-intensity sometimes-often, low-moderate intensity sometimes-often, or do you not exercise at all?

    If your answer to question 1 was that your goal is to increase muscle-mass and/or your answer to question 2 was that you exercise or train with high-intensity sometimes-often, then a glycogen refeed every week once you have become fat-adapted would benefit you greatly. Fat-adaption usually occurs after 2-3 weeks of maintained ketosis. Here is an in-depth article on everything you need to know about glycogen refeeding written by Lyle Mcdonald himself: Training on the Ketogenic Diet

    If your answer to question 2 was that you do not exercise or weight-train, then you should not employ a glycogen refeed.

    If your answer to either question has not yet been addressed, then a glycogen refeed is unnecessary. If your main goal is to rid yourself of body-fat, then a glycogen refeed is counterproductive. If you exercise with low-moderate intensity sometimes-often, then a glycogen refeed is unnecessary though if you'd really like to refeed then a small refeed once every month should be more than sufficient.

    ...

    so basically to address you personally, yeah your goal is to lose body-fat, but you also train intensely sometimes-often so you probably should do a refeed every 1-2 weeks once you've become fat-adapted. check the article that Lyle wrote for any specifics on glycogen refeeds.
    Thank the lord !!

    I have been waiting for this answer.

    I also just read the forum "Case of eating fat on a carb up" and it was going in depth about how eating dirty actually helps you. This caused another stir in my brian like, "Now, what is this ?" What is that all about now ? And, I want to know when people carb up why does liquid intake have to be limited?

    thoughts?
    The scientific and practical amount of carbohydrate needed in the diet is ZERO -- NONE. Dietary carbohydrates are not a requirement in any body function. In fact it appears that the lower the carbohydrate level in the diet the better the long-term health. Age-related degenerative diseases are caused by high levels of carbohydrates in the diet. One can be on a very low or zero-carbohydrate diet indefinitely as has been shown by the study of many primitive societies.
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  7. #37
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    Awesome post. Thank you!
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post

    so basically to address you personally, yeah your goal is to lose body-fat, but you also train intensely sometimes-often so you probably should do a refeed every 1-2 weeks once you've become fat-adapted. check the article that Lyle wrote for any specifics on glycogen refeeds.
    The second seems to apply to me, my workouts aren't as intensive as they could be, hopefully here in the summer I will be able to start running and lifting, should definitely hit the refeeds.. But until then I will stay on low carb for as long as I can..
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  9. #39
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Boochie21 View Post
    Thank the lord !!

    I have been waiting for this answer.

    I also just read the forum "Case of eating fat on a carb up" and it was going in depth about how eating dirty actually helps you. This caused another stir in my brian like, "Now, what is this ?" What is that all about now ? And, I want to know when people carb up why does liquid intake have to be limited?

    thoughts?
    well, the method this guy used to ascertain the effectiveness of "dirty" foods versus clean foods on a carb up is incredibly unscientific and doesn't say much on the truth of the matter. i doubt there are any studies on this, so i can't give you any cold-hard facts. the fact that people really want this to be true though will inevitably lead to confirmation biases, self-fulfilling prophecies, and placebo effects so (if you want to be scientific) you can't really trust anecdotes on this one.

    Here is my guess for what would happen if you ingested a lot of fat during carb-ups (remember, this is just a guess):

    the gargantuan insulin spikes would activate enzymes that will shuttle all of the already present free fatty acids back into adipose tissues, so any dietary fatty acids that are in your blood-stream will also be captured in adipose tissue. in other words, the dietary fat that you consume on a carb-up will most likely be stored as fat.

    but then again, maybe something weird will happen and eating a lot of fat will somehow be good.

    with that said, you're seriously over-thinking these carb-ups. 1 carb-up won't be disastrous. it's possible to lose body-fat incredibly rapidly under ketosis, so if you need a carb-up to help your sanity, then just do it. stop over-thinking this.

    also, if you're not aware of dreamfield's pasta, breyer's low carb icecream, pepperidge farm's carb-style bread, low-carb tortillas, etc etc then you can eat all of these things and actually remain under ketosis.

    edit: and i have no idea where you heard that you aren't supposed to drink a lot of water on a carb-up but ignore that piece of helpful advice.
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  10. #40
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    hell yea man, great thread! thanks for the input
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    well, the method this guy used to ascertain the effectiveness of "dirty" foods versus clean foods on a carb up is incredibly unscientific and doesn't say much on the truth of the matter. i doubt there are any studies on this, so i can't give you any cold-hard facts. the fact that people really want this to be true though will inevitably lead to confirmation biases, self-fulfilling prophecies, and placebo effects so (if you want to be scientific) you can't really trust anecdotes on this one.

    Here is my guess for what would happen if you ingested a lot of fat during carb-ups (remember, this is just a guess):

    the gargantuan insulin spikes would activate enzymes that will shuttle all of the already present free fatty acids back into adipose tissues, so any dietary fatty acids that are in your blood-stream will also be captured in adipose tissue. in other words, the dietary fat that you consume on a carb-up will most likely be stored as fat.

    but then again, maybe something weird will happen and eating a lot of fat will somehow be good.

    with that said, you're seriously over-thinking these carb-ups. 1 carb-up won't be disastrous. it's possible to lose body-fat incredibly rapidly under ketosis, so if you need a carb-up to help your sanity, then just do it. stop over-thinking this.

    also, if you're not aware of dreamfield's pasta, breyer's low carb icecream, pepperidge farm's carb-style bread, low-carb tortillas, etc etc then you can eat all of these things and actually remain under ketosis.

    edit: and i have no idea where you heard that you aren't supposed to drink a lot of water on a carb-up but ignore that piece of helpful advice.
    Thank you !!!!
    The scientific and practical amount of carbohydrate needed in the diet is ZERO -- NONE. Dietary carbohydrates are not a requirement in any body function. In fact it appears that the lower the carbohydrate level in the diet the better the long-term health. Age-related degenerative diseases are caused by high levels of carbohydrates in the diet. One can be on a very low or zero-carbohydrate diet indefinitely as has been shown by the study of many primitive societies.
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    well, the method this guy used to ascertain the effectiveness of "dirty" foods versus clean foods on a carb up is incredibly unscientific and doesn't say much on the truth of the matter. i doubt there are any studies on this, so i can't give you any cold-hard facts. the fact that people really want this to be true though will inevitably lead to confirmation biases, self-fulfilling prophecies, and placebo effects so (if you want to be scientific) you can't really trust anecdotes on this one.

    Here is my guess for what would happen if you ingested a lot of fat during carb-ups (remember, this is just a guess):

    the gargantuan insulin spikes would activate enzymes that will shuttle all of the already present free fatty acids back into adipose tissues, so any dietary fatty acids that are in your blood-stream will also be captured in adipose tissue. in other words, the dietary fat that you consume on a carb-up will most likely be stored as fat.

    but then again, maybe something weird will happen and eating a lot of fat will somehow be good.

    with that said, you're seriously over-thinking these carb-ups. 1 carb-up won't be disastrous. it's possible to lose body-fat incredibly rapidly under ketosis, so if you need a carb-up to help your sanity, then just do it. stop over-thinking this.

    also, if you're not aware of dreamfield's pasta, breyer's low carb icecream, pepperidge farm's carb-style bread, low-carb tortillas, etc etc then you can eat all of these things and actually remain under ketosis.

    edit: and i have no idea where you heard that you aren't supposed to drink a lot of water on a carb-up but ignore that piece of helpful advice.
    i have low carb tortillas at home. huge tortilla, has 18g but 12g fiber. only 6 net carbs. so glad i can get my fix on taco night
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  13. #43
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    Updated the link with a sample meal plan and I added more foods to the food list. If there are any foods I missed let me know. Also let me know if you have an idea for a new section or a new question to add to the faq. I want to try to make this as complete as possible. Thanks.
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  14. #44
    Team MuscleTech Rep/EMT-B BlueRev's Avatar
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    Very glad they made this a sticky
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    Great post. Sadly this is the first time I have heard of Keto, but I am definately going to do it!
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    Great read man, repped.
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  17. #47
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    Great Post.

    I started the diet about two weeks ago and I just found this now. What a great reference tool for foods. I printed it out and I'm going to follow it.


    Thanks a lot man
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  18. #48
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    Originally Posted by BookNerd View Post
    Great Post.

    I started the diet about two weeks ago and I just found this now. What a great reference tool for foods. I printed it out and I'm going to follow it.


    Thanks a lot man
    no problem. glad you found it useful. also, if you mean you printed out the food list, it might be better to use the one in the link instead. it's more complete and i fixed some color errors.. for ex. eggs were colored orange at first, but they should be blue.

    but.. that's probably my obsessive compulsiveness haha. either one should be fine.
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  19. #49
    Watch the triangle brah JAGERBOY's Avatar
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    Moved to a regular Keto/CKD diet today after my carb up this weekend.As we talked about before, the RFLD only allows for fat from fish oil pills, so I had to eat only egg whites for 2 weeks if I wanted eggs. This morning I had 7 WHOLE eggs with pepperoni. Was glorious.
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    Originally Posted by JAGERBOY View Post
    Moved to a regular Keto/CKD diet today after my carb up this weekend.As we talked about before,the RFLD only allows for fat from fish oil pills, so I had to eat only egg whites for 2 weeks if I wanted eggs. This morning I had 7 WHOLE eggs with pepperoni. Was glorious.
    da fu*k. how many pills were you taking per day?

    eggs with pepperoni. now that sounds good.

    are you on a 50/50 fat/protein split now that you're fat-adapted? how's that going?
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    da fu*k. how many pills were you taking per day?

    eggs with pepperoni. now that sounds good.

    are you on a 50/50 fat/protein split now that you're fat-adapted? how's that going?
    You take only 6 pills per day. My total calories were around 1100 a day. That's why for people who are 15% bf or less only do the diet for 12 days. It sucks but I lost a lot of fat in a short period of time and maintained most of my muscle.

    I'm trying a 60/40 split and see how that works out. I may adjust it, we'll see how it goes first.
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    Originally Posted by JAGERBOY View Post
    You take only 6 pills per day. My total calories were around 1100 a day. That's why for people who are 15% bf or less only do the diet for 12 days. It sucks but I lost a lot of fat in a short period of time and maintained most of my muscle.

    I'm trying a 60/40 split and see how that works out. I may adjust it, we'll see how it goes first.
    oh okay. that's not too bad.

    60/40 is pretty decent.
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    oh okay. that's not too bad.

    60/40 is pretty decent.
    I'm surprised based on your knowledge and research of Keto you've never stumbled upon Lyle's RFL handbook. You should check it out.
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    Originally Posted by JAGERBOY View Post
    I'm surprised based on your knowledge and research of Keto you've never stumbled upon Lyle's RFL handbook. You should check it out.
    yeah i will for sure. i tend to focus on something to the point that i get tunnel vision.
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    Just skimmed the article but it has everything I'll ever need to know. Thanks OP gonna cut in summer with keto, gonna definitely use this guide. Repped (measly)
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    this thread is amazing thank you so much ! i have being on a keto diet for 7 weeks today. i have droped alot of bodyfat im now down to 13.5 percent. i like the idea of bulking on keto to, im planning on adding calories again once im down to around 11percent and try to clean bulk. My trainer said its ok to have a cheat meal every sunday night for 2 hours , and to eat whatever i want. i stuff my face with pizza and ice cream most weeks. what do you guys think about tha idea ?? i am stilldroping bodyfat everyweek but is this slowing me down ? i am eating 25 carbs per day i was told to keep it under 30 grams a day. my question is i think i have being adding fibers carbs into that 30 when i count my carbs am i not suppose to add fibre carbs ??? thanks for all the help !!
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    Originally Posted by mick01 View Post
    this thread is amazing thank you so much ! i have being on a keto diet for 7 weeks today. i have droped alot of bodyfat im now down to 13.5 percent. i like the idea of bulking on keto to, im planning on adding calories again once im down to around 11percent and try to clean bulk. My trainer said its ok to have a cheat meal every sunday night for 2 hours , and to eat whatever i want. i stuff my face with pizza and ice cream most weeks. what do you guys think about tha idea ?? i am stilldroping bodyfat everyweek but is this slowing me down ? i am eating 25 carbs per day i was told to keep it under 30 grams a day. my question is i think i have being adding fibers carbs into that 30 when i count my carbs am i not suppose to add fibre carbs ??? thanks for all the help !!
    1. in the other thread you said you're losing about 1% bf per week so i think you're okay. just keep it up.

    2. yeah, you don't add fiber into your carbohydrate count.
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    Thumbs up

    wow!! what a post..... read as much as i could, im at work right now (i live in the UK)

    shadowwalker do you have this as a zip file? id love to print it off and keep it to refer back to now and then, understand if not... you have put alot of time and effort into it but if your willing share ot as a zip file that would be GREAT!!
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    Originally Posted by midlands83 View Post
    wow!! what a post..... read as much as i could, im at work right now (i live in the UK)

    shadowwalker do you have this as a zip file? id love to print it off and keep it to refer back to now and then, understand if not... you have put alot of time and effort into it but if your willing share ot as a zip file that would be GREAT!!
    i only have the raw data in a few notepad files, but it wouldn't be nice and neat like it looks in the thread since it'll have a bunch of html and vbulletin code. (if you do want this to repost somewhere for example then just quote the post and you'll see it).

    maybe sometime in the future i'll make a pdf that people can download and print off. actually that might be a good idea.

    for now though why not just download the web page and print that out? just go to file and "save page as" and you can download web pages. then you can print that out. if you decide to do that then i suggest downloading the version in the link in the first post as that one is more complete (though the background is black so that might present a problem... maybe you can change the background to white somehow).
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    Hey ketoers, I figured I should let you know that I updated and revised the guide again at my site. I'm unable to edit the posts any further in this thread.

    I revised the section on polyunsaturated vs. saturated fatty acids.

    I edited a few more typos, added some new links, and fixed some poorly worded sections.

    I also added some new sections:

    - losing body-fat
    - building muscle-mass (still unfinished - haven't fully researched this)
    - aerobic exercise
    - sample meal plan

    edit: I was recently made aware that those who are colorblind wouldn't be able to use the keto list so I edited the list to make it colorblind friendly by adding corresponding symbols.

    I'm also thinking of adding some more sections like maybe a section that contains some before and after pictures of people that went on a ketogenic diet.
    Last edited by shadowwalker021; 03-29-2011 at 11:51 PM.
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