Should i just always go to failure?

[basejester]

Do you think the guy going to failure is going to maintain his form just as well?

Let's say that he does, so that we can isolate the other alleged detrimental effects of failure in our discussion. I think it's clear that bad form can hurt people and failing in certain exercises can cause bad form. But I don't really think that getting hurt is what people mean when they say failing can cause a plateau or regression.

Nervous system fatigue.

Yeah. This is the thing I would like to understand. Can we quantify this? Is it real? How do we know?

Form breakdown.

Understood.

[gomez26]

Yeah. This is the thing I would like to understand. Can we quantify this? Is it real? How do we know?
.

thats something each individual has to judge for themselves by the way they feel, cns fatigue tolerance varies a lot between ppl.

i agree there shouldnt be too much scientific debate about this, there really is no need to be coz each person can easily try it for themselves.

over the decades, most long term successful ppl doing moderate volume & above, train close to failure but not to total failure apart from the odd set or 2.

also note that single joint moves with small muscles can be pushed to failure more often with less consequence.

oh rly? take a look at my profil pic buddy, and tell me again theres no benefit.

btw whats up with germi why is he banned? someone told me he was gonna stalk someone lol.

[MWheatley]

Yeah. This is the thing I would like to understand. Can we quantify this? Is it real? How do we know?

Can you quantify something to prove otherwise?

I think the best way to determine something like this is to try for yourself. Not to mention CNS fatigue from training to failure and/or high intensity training has been established for a long time.

[chazzy1864]

Yeah. This is the thing I would like to understand. Can we quantify this? Is it real? How do we know?

Lift for awhile, especially to failure a lot. You'll burn out, trust me.

If you ever experience overtraining/overreaching and then rest enough and let your body recuperate; you will see a difference. It is night and day.

[GreenWave1]

Lift for awhile, especially to failure a lot. You'll burn out, trust me.

If you ever experience overtraining/overreaching and then rest enough and let your body recuperate; you will see a difference. It is night and day.

Listen to this man.

[basejester]

Can you quantify something to prove otherwise?

Can you prove that invisible pink unicorns don't cause plateaus?

I'm not even looking for some sort of mathematical proof, just a reason to believe it at all. It's clear to me that a person can overtrain in a program that includes going to failure and that a person can train successfully without going to failure. It's the negative effects of failure (a nebulous concept to begin with) itself that I doubt.

[Farley1324]

Can you prove that invisible pink unicorns don't cause plateaus?

Stupid argument is stupid.

No wonder we can't take you seriously

[LukeN]

I made a thread about this in the teen section and got many good replies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16410373

Strength training leading to RF resulted in reductions in resting concentrations of IGF-1 and elevations in IGFBP-3, whereas NRF resulted in reduced resting cortisol concentrations and an elevation in resting serum total testosterone concentration. This investigation demonstrated a potential beneficial stimulus of NRF for improving strength and power, especially during the subsequent peaking training period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19211941

"These results indicate that when intensity and volume are equated, failure or nonfailure training results in similar gains in lower body muscular endurance."

Although this is about endurance, it does support the fact that training to failure does not elicit significantly better gains.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530977

"Furthermore, training to failure should not be performed repeatedly over long periods, due to the high potential for overtraining and overuse injuries."

[chazzy1864]

I made a thread about this in the teen section and got many good replies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16410373



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19211941



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530977

But what about the f*cking unicorns?!?!

F*cking negged!

[LukeN]

But what about the f*cking unicorns?!?!

F*cking negged!

The 4th article talks about unicorns..

[shaneee]

Lift for awhile, especially to failure a lot. You'll burn out, trust me.

If you ever experience overtraining/overreaching and then rest enough and let your body recuperate; you will see a difference. It is night and day.

i still haven't.
even with high volume with alot of failure training.
not saying i won't some time, but so far it hasn't even almost an issue, so ill just keep training this way

[stackums]

what I started doing, and I actually feel like Im finally making some gains is...

work my heavy stuff first, squats, deads, presses, stuff like that a pre-determined amount of reps/sets (4x 8-10) last couple reps being hard to achieve w/out help from a spotter

when im done these types of exersizes I then choose a couple others for that body part such as body weight squats or light weighted lunges, assisted dips/pull-ups and crank out a bunch to failure (about 30-50 reps) of these types just to fully fatigue that muscle at the end of the workout....works great!!!

picked up that idea from Lyzabeth Lopez on here (fitness model/trainer) she kicks some serious **s!!

[MWheatley]

Stupid argument is stupid.

No wonder we can't take you seriously

Exactly. Im not going to dig up some article that puts it into words that suits your liking. I think anyone that has trained for a period of time can come to the same conclusion on this.

[jdjprimer19]

i still haven't.
even with high volume with alot of failure training.
not saying i won't some time, but so far it hasn't even almost an issue, so ill just keep training this way

Maybe you lift like a girl?

[shaneee]

Maybe you lift like a girl?

Definitely not the case or i wouldn't be making such rapid gains, i def push myself....lol

[basejester]

I made a thread about this in the teen section and got many good replies.

Good stuff. Thank you.

[chazzy1864]

i still haven't.
even with high volume with alot of failure training.
not saying i won't some time, but so far it hasn't even almost an issue, so ill just keep training this way

I first noticed the difference (and effects of overtraining) when I was doing a cut, doing a full body routine 3x a week (with lots of failure training) and doing high intensity cardio (sometimes HIIT and others just HISS). I was getting 8 hours minimum a night and had carefully planned out meals, calories, macros, etc. Within an hour of getting to work I had multiple poeple coming up to me (regularly) making comments like "Wow, late night out?" and my answer was always "Nope, in bed by 10pm." I was always in bed no later than 10pm on the dot and woke up no earlier than 6am. Yet by 8am I was completely exhausted and had no energy.

I had a PT test coming up (it was on a Friday) so I made Tuesday my last training day, cut out all exercise Wednesday and Thursday and pretty much had an impromptu "refeed". That Friday I scored better than I ever had on my PT test and felt amazing. Energetic, aware/alert, etc. That was when I noticed the night & day difference. Now i can spot the signs of overreaching long before they are set in like stated above.

[shaneee]

I first noticed the difference (and effects of overtraining) when I was doing a cut, doing a full body routine 3x a week (with lots of failure training) and doing high intensity cardio (sometimes HIIT and others just HISS). I was getting 8 hours minimum a night and had carefully planned out meals, calories, macros, etc. Within an hour of getting to work I had multiple poeple coming up to me (regularly) making comments like "Wow, late night out?" and my answer was always "Nope, in bed by 10pm." I was always in bed no later than 10pm on the dot and woke up no earlier than 6am. Yet by 8am I was completely exhausted and had no energy.

I had a PT test coming up (it was on a Friday) so I made Tuesday my last training day, cut out all exercise Wednesday and Thursday and pretty much had an impromptu "refeed". That Friday I scored better than I ever had on my PT test and felt amazing. Energetic, aware/alert, etc. That was when I noticed the night & day difference. Now i can spot the signs of overreaching long before they are set in like stated above.

Yeah bro i understand where you're coming from though..everyone is different with this stuff, im sure ill feel signs of it sometime as i just go ridiculous with high volume and failure training alot lol
but also you said that was on a cut so you're recovery is way down from that...last time i cut and here in another couple months when i decide to i don't train to failure nearly as much..maybe the last set of an exercise..i also lower the volume and train heavier..i def think doing what im doing now on a cut would be pushing it haha

[JordanBoisvert]

I've come to realize that it doesn't matter what type of workout you do, but just how hard you do it.

So i'm thinking that maybe i can do some not so dangerous lifts always to failure since that means i've worked so hard and therefore i cant go any longer.

So should i just do this no matter what kind of workout i do or should i be satisfied with following a certain number or reps and sets?

IN MY OPINION, if you are trying to gain lean size shoot for 7 to 8 reps and by the 8th rep.. you should basically be at failure. Don't set a number like oh im doing 8 then just stop when you had a few more in you. If your GOAL is 8 for a set, and do 12, just add a little more weight so your 8th is failure. you can 'burn it out' and go a crazy amount of reps once in a while but i can't imagine its too beneficial if you do it every exercise.

[jgreystoke]

Can you prove that invisible pink unicorns don't cause plateaus?

Bollocks again.

Did you get the bit about millions of weightlifters and powerlifters having experience we simply can't ignore?

Obviously not.

You just keep looking for those unicorns.

[Iime]

Working out with high reps causes more blood flow into your muscles, which will make them look big.. for a short period of time. Real muscle definition is caused by residual tension in the muscles, so I highly recommend training strength, not how much of a pump you can get =)

Implement failure exercises into your strength training.

GOOD LUCK!!

[basejester]

Bollocks again.

Did you get the bit about millions of weightlifters and powerlifters having experience we simply can't ignore?

Obviously not.

You just keep looking for those unicorns.

The point of the unicorn comment is that believing all things until they are proven false is unworkable. It's not my original metaphor. I thought it would be a short-hand for a straight-forward concept that people might have already seen.

I think the thing that millions of lifters have established is that failure isn't necessary for progress and that excessive fatigue is counter-productive. Even the study referenced in this thread doesn't really control total fatigue very carefully, so I don't expect people to do it by accident.

[Farley1324]

The point of the unicorn comment is that believing all things until they are proven false is unworkable. It's not my original metaphor. I thought it would be a short-hand for a straight-forward concept that people might have already seen.

I think the thing that millions of lifters have established is that failure isn't necessary for progress and that excessive fatigue is counter-productive. Even the study referenced in this thread doesn't really control total fatigue very carefully, so I don't expect people to do it by accident.

You have absolutely no reason to believe the damn unicorn thing.

However, a lot of people have a lot of reasons to believe what they have stated about going to failure and fatigue, burnout, overreaching, injuries, etc.

Only a fool would ignore this.

[gomez26]

The Russians have over a million registered competing weightlifters. They avoid failure like the plague, or they burn out. Same with olympic lifters all over the world.

Did you get the bit about millions of weightlifters and powerlifters having experience we simply can't ignore?

i agree that most ppl should train close to, but not to failure on most exercises. but using olympic weightlifters is actually not a good example of this issue in this context, they only avoid failure like the plague for their big lifts done for low reps - singles or doubles.

im not meaning to throw a spanner in the works here, just to encourage extra discussion from various ppl that may have more insight on this, but zatsiorsky (researcher & coach for the soviets) actually believes that when using the method of repeated efforts (ie several reps in a set), that it should be done to failure. of course all nations were using anabolics, but anyway...

"If the method of repeated efforts is used, the weight must be lifted with sincere
exertions to failure (maximum number of times). This requirement is very
important. The popular jokes among coaches are: “Lift the barbell as many times
as you can and after that three more times,” and “no pain, no gain” I reflect the
demand very well. With this method, only final lifts in which a maximal number of
MU’s are recruited are actually useful. If an athlete can lift a barbell 12 times but
lifts only 10, the exercise set is worthless."

(see page 19 of attachment).

now it should be mentioned, as zat explains in pages 4-7, that as the exercise they are doing becomes less complex (less compound) the higher the repetitions they use in training. so for snatches & clean/jerks they train 1-5 reps with most workload around 2 reps, for squats 1-10 reps with most workload around 4 reps, for weighted hyper-extensions 2-12 reps with most workload around 6 reps. altho not mentioned here ive read elsewhere that they do also train shoulder press (centered around 7 reps from memory) & reverse curl (centered around 12 reps), basically all simple components of clean & jerk compound.

also worth mentioning is that their athlete's fulltime job is to train & do various recovery therapies (massage, hold/cold treatments etc) as well as having expert supervision during training so injuries from form breakdown would not be an issue. this obviously is limited in how much it would apply to the average trainee.

Right on,

Depends on the exercise, and its contribution of risk/reward for muscle fiber breakdown vs CNS detriment.

For some exercises, I'll go to failure on every set;
For other exercises I'll go to failure on the last set;
And finally, for some of the most effective exercises, and hence most CNS afflicted, I probably haven't gone to failure since around the time of the Harry S. Truman administration.

i prefer this approach, together with simply working things out for urself, i do believe cns recovery varies a lot b/w ppl & some guys can consistently take many sets to failure. naturally, the guys who would make it to be on the olympic teams would be one of these, again limited assumptions can be made for the general public.

[nzgs]

I go to positive failure on squats/barbell bench, failure on most other exercises. Positive failure is stopping before you begin a rep that you know you can't complete. But I don't use a spotter usually, so it's just for safety. The thing is that people have different definitions of failure. A lot of guys will go to form failure and then start swinging around like a monkey getting an extra rep in, that's how injuries happen. I say go to failure and do a really slow negative on your last rep. Or even do as many forced negatives as you can immediately afterward to get true failure without risking injury (on something like bicep curls).

The problem with not training to failure, is that although you can still make progress, it becomes much harder to gauge your progress if each workout your sets finish at arbitrary points. If you go to positive failure or failure then you know exactly where you are.

[Farley1324]

I go to positive failure on squats/barbell bench, failure on most other exercises

. But I don't use a spotter usually, so it's just for safety.

Even if you had a spotter s/he isn't going to make it safe to miss a squat rep.

If you are in a rack or cage that is 100x better than any spotter.

[Orlando1234977]

Positive failure is stopping before you begin a rep that you know you can't complete.

Not true,

positive failure is failing on the concentric motion
negative failure is failing on the eccentric motion
static failure is failing to hold the weight.

Not attempting a rep that you assume you can't complete (though sometimes/usually a good idea) does not define any definition of failure.

[Franco300992]

Woa man! lot of replies i hadnt checked this in a bit. Still havent even got to the 3rd page but looks like a lot of good info from everyone!

[Farley1324]

Not true,

positive failure is failing on the concentric motion
negative failure is failing on the eccentric motion
static failure is failing to hold the weight.

Not attempting a rep that you assume you can't complete (though sometimes/usually a good idea) does not define any definition of failure.

This

[jgreystoke]

im not meaning to throw a spanner in the works here, just to encourage extra discussion from various ppl that may have more insight on this, but zatsiorsky (researcher & coach for the soviets) actually believes that when using the method of repeated efforts (ie several reps in a set), that it should be done to failure. of course all nations were using anabolics, but anyway...

"If the method of repeated efforts is used, the weight must be lifted with sincere
exertions to failure (maximum number of times). This requirement is very
important. The popular jokes among coaches are: “Lift the barbell as many times
as you can and after that three more times,” and “no pain, no gain” I reflect the
demand very well. With this method, only final lifts in which a maximal number of
MU’s are recruited are actually useful. If an athlete can lift a barbell 12 times but
lifts only 10, the exercise set is worthless."

I know that the repeated effort method is usually stated as something like "lift a number of repetitions to failure". But I think that guys like Zatsiorski don't mean anything like the guys on bb.com mean, ie Arthur Jones style failure. Especially if it is an exercise like squat(which for a weightlifter, is assistance to the snatch and jerk)

AMAP, As Many As Possible.....in halfway decent form, might be a better description. That is very effective, because form breakdown is not a serious issue. I do that all the time on 5 3 1.

And I have been known to go to real failure on my grip machine, lat pulldown, curls etc. Form breakdown is no harm on stuff like that. And the CNS isn't fried at all, so even an ol' codger recovers.

Westside guys use repeated effort(as well as max effort and dynamic effort methods)and they are pretty conservative about "failure".

I think Orlando said it well(as well as defining the different types for us):

"For some exercises, I'll go to failure on every set;
For other exercises I'll go to failure on the last set;
And finally, for some of the most effective exercises, and hence most CNS afflicted, I probably haven't gone to failure since around the time of the Harry S. Truman administration."