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  1. #541
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    Originally Posted by johnmlodynia View Post
    Not sure if srs on this one.
    Originally Posted by jsalazar92 View Post
    You're clueless but this thread isn't about anabolics
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  2. #542
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    Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    npc competitors= IFBB pros? hmmmm......
    Successful NPC competitors = future IFBB pros.
    NPC = untested association.

    I'll abstain from elaborating on this topic further before I get negged into oblivion.
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  3. #543
    Registered User J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    Successful NPC competitors = future IFBB pros.
    NPC = untested association.

    I'll abstain from elaborating on this topic further before I get negged into oblivion.
    Julie, don't sweat it, IM not gonna neg ya lol....I just didnt want you to think i was referring to some pro that is on a whole different level...I am sure we can agree that a 5'9" 200 lb light heavyweight is a far cry from anybody in say, the arnold lineup.

    furthermore, my point of reference to that was not to say "I know someone that blah blah blah and this makes them right" but more to point out the fact that if someone can be at that level of competition by using "broscience" (eating 6-7 meals a day, "clean food", etc) then can the actual difference in results really apply to someone such as myself, who has a much farther way to go to achieve their goals?

    I hope this makes sense.
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  4. #544
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    Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    furthermore, my point of reference to that was not to say "I know someone that blah blah blah and this makes them right" but more to point out the fact that if someone can be at that level of competition by using "broscience" (eating 6-7 meals a day, "clean food", etc) then can the actual difference in results really apply to someone such as myself, who has a much farther way to go to achieve their goals?

    I hope this makes sense.
    IMO, you will be much better off using common sense, science and figuring out what works for you personally.
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  5. #545
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    IMO, you will be much better off using common sense, science and figuring out what works for you personally.
    common sense and figuring out what works for me, I hope come naturally for me on my own

    as for the science...I will let you guys point me in the right direction for reference points.
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  6. #546
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    Originally Posted by JohnBrowne View Post
    You really do give me **** every chance you get don't you? Leave me alone. I have the right to have an opinion.

    Note that I did NOT say that Bateman is unimpressive... I used the word jawdropping - JAWDROPPING. That's significant.

    Oh and stop discrediting IFBB pros' work ethic because they use anabolics. If anything drugs make bodybuilding as a whole MUCH more difficult. Your insecurity is pitiful and disrespectful.

    Negs on spread

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  7. #547
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    Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    Julie, don't sweat it, IM not gonna neg ya lol....I just didnt want you to think i was referring to some pro that is on a whole different level...I am sure we can agree that a 5'9" 200 lb light heavyweight is a far cry from anybody in say, the arnold lineup.

    furthermore, my point of reference to that was not to say "I know someone that blah blah blah and this makes them right" but more to point out the fact that if someone can be at that level of competition by using "broscience" (eating 6-7 meals a day, "clean food", etc) then can the actual difference in results really apply to someone such as myself, who has a much farther way to go to achieve their goals?

    I hope this makes sense.

    That's really the point of this thread... that nutrient timing really makes very little difference in the scheme of things to the vast majority of people (99.99%). If, however, you're near the peak of human potential or one of the greatest olympians who has lived the rules might be slightly different for you as your body is obviously not "typical".
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  8. #548
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    Okay 1st off -- Everyone please do not argue over whose physique is better than what. It's focking OBVIOUS that PBateman & Layne both have outstanding physiques, so we're here to discuss the science of things rather than ruminate over personal opinions & other observational stuff. That said, I do have a number of contentions that I'll address regarding the postworkout anabolic window, & some of the other views Layne relayed. I gotta go train & get some work done, I'll be back later.
    Originally Posted by t1ger View Post
    ^ The INTERNETWARRIOR™ has finally arrived.
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  9. #549
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    Originally Posted by ko300zx View Post
    New nightmare. Thanks a lot bro.
    *Unaesthetic Crew* Disregard V-Taper, Acquire PRs.

    My 5/3/1 log - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=142349681
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  10. #550
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    Kusok and ko300zx will be repped for most awesome gifs.
    Thanks to bb.com I have quite a collection now .
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  11. #551
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    Originally Posted by ko300zx View Post
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  12. #552
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    Originally Posted by ko300zx View Post
    Nutrition and Supp Science FAQ:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=139153843&p=849049173&viewfull=1#post849049173
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  13. #553
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    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    i actually disagree with that quite heavily as far as optimizing protein synthesis goes.

    8 meals per day is nonsense. But my research specifically showed that multiple stimulations of muscle protein synthesis per day vs 1 or 2 is superior for body composition and muscle mass. And consuming protein at a meal past a certain point (probably 30-50g depending upon the source and your weight/age) does not further increase the peak anabolic response or duration so you'd be better off dosing it at other times to optimize anabolism. That said, you don't want to do it too frequently either, else you actually can impede anabolism as well.

    I'd recommend reading my scientific review on protein intake and frequency here
    To Layne specifically:

    I read your article, and it was very well-done. However, I disagree with the idea that 1) 8 meals per day will evoke the refractory response and thus inhibit optimal muscle growth, and 2) 2 meals per day would significantly hinder muscle retention/growth. We'll take these one at a time.

    1) The "protein stat hypothesis" which is the source of your concern for the inhibition of muscle growth by constant AA elevation is exactly that - a hypothesis. It's based on preliminary & circumstantial evidence. The work you cited by Bohe et al is intravenous infusion of AAs examined acutely (in the short-term). This research did not measure effects on muscular size or strength over the long-term. At best, this data is hypothesis-generating, and far from conclusive. To translate this data into a recommendation against high meal frequency is quite a large leap of faith. The other work you cited by Paddon-Jones et al in support of inter-meal AA dosing had some serious treatment imbalance. The experimental group consumed a total of 45g EAA + 90g carbs above & beyond the control group, so the results were not surprising. Furthermore, the control group's protein intake totaled 64g for the day, while the supplemented group averaged 109g. It not only was a matter of treatment imbalance, but it essentially became a comparison of insufficient protein intake versus barely adequate intake, even by sedentary standards.

    2) Aside from individual variations in gastric tolerance, the idea that 2 meals per day is not optimal for muscle growth is sort of a slippery slope for a couple of main reasons. First off, most people eating 2 meals a day do not have size gains as their main goal. Their priority is usually fat oxidation, and 2 meals per day in many cases works great for this. Secondly, even if the main goal was muscle retention, there are human studies lasting several weeks showing the muscle-preserving superiority of 1 meal/day instead of 3 (Stote et al, 2008), and 3 meals instead of 6 (Oyvind et al, 2007). In addition, human research has also shown no difference in LBM retention despite 20-hr fasting cycles compared to a conventional eating pattern (Soeters et al, 2009). Furthermore, in young women, no difference in muscle retention was seen between consuming most of the day's protein in one meal, versus the same amount spread across four meals (Arnal et al, 2000). Elderly women put through the same protocol actually had better muscle retention on the large pulse rather than the spread-out pattern (Arnal et al, 1999).

    Keep in mind, NONE of these studies involved the abundance of protein that BBers typically ingest, which would actually make differential effects of meal frequency even more miniscule. So... Given the existence of human data to the contrary, a compelling case cannot be made from rodent research - despite the flaws of the existing human research compared to the meticulous execution of the critter designs. The latter is still up for human confirmation at best.


    To no one in particular:

    The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept (which I believe Layne agrees with). Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

    So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

    Sorry about the length of this post, I tried to keep it concise, but sh!t happens. I might not be able to come on for a while (the weekend calls). And by the way, there are even more compelling data against the standard practice of neurotic micromanagement of meal timing, but it's not my intention to write a book here.
    Last edited by alan aragon; 05-09-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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  14. #554
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    Thumbs up

    Damn, I waited for this.
    Applauding.
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    What I take from this is that if the knowledgable people are still not quite certain about all of this, it's probably not worth worrying about anyway... as in, any changes will be negligible. So I just do what I like best
    My recommended reading

    http://www.alanaragonblog.com/ - great research review /w practical considerations!

    http://www.biolayne.com.com/ - natural bodybuilder Layne Norton!

    http:://www.bodyrecomposition.com - Lyle McDonald's site - tons of great articles!
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    It's important to realize that Layne & I (& other practitioners in the field) probably agree on 99% of the program variables with the most impact on results.
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    That post was like a free Research Review post. Thanks AA. Well written too. It's good that AA and Layne can have a civilized debate and they each have great respect for each other, which is rare to see in an online forum debate.
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    I agree, we disagree on minute things.

    but for the sake of disagreement

    1) I"m not sure how you would expect someone to run a test on hypertrophy testing long term outcomes of a refractory response. Shall we infuse people 24/7 with amino acids? It's just not viable. As you said, it's a hypothesis, but we have since followed it up with another paper I talked about that will be coming out soon that has data which supports this 'stat' hypothesis. I agree it would be great to get a long term study, but sometimes when you are actually writing grants and doing the research in the lab, there is a disconnect between what you'd like to do, and what is actually practical to get done.

    2) Our data indicates the more bouts of muscle protein synthesis you can stimulate per day, the more hypertrophy you will experience and the data in my thesis backed this up. Hardly conclusive at this point, but I think if you can stimulate protein synthesis 4-5 times per day as oppossed to 2, you are better off. Additionally, it's not as if 4 or 5 meals per day is a huge impedement.

    In all likelyhood we are arguing over a 5-10% difference in gains, if that and so for most people who are super meticulous, it won't mean much. But for a competitor, it might mean everything.

    Again, it is just a hypothesis, but that doesn't mean it's not viable either
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  19. #559
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    Thank you both for some very interesting and valuable information (free research review FTW). In the end it seems like it depends on whether you are in great need of those 5-10% difference in gains (e.g. competitive bodybuilders).

    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    Again, it is just a hypothesis, but that doesn't mean it's not viable either
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  20. #560
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    Great posts guys! thanks a lot for that.


    To add to the discussion: supporting evidence (empirical data) is found which backs up the claim that individuals who perform resistance training and adhere to a solid diet vs. individuals who don't (and mostly sit on their couch and/or office chair all day), run greater risks of gaining muscle tissue. Comparing both groups, little to non shredded 220lbs men were found in the latter.

    This almost makes you think you should just pay your dues in the gym and adhere a solid diet that supports your physical activities. I wonder .. could that be.. The Secret?
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    In some ways I actually like that everything isn't carved in stone when it comes to nutrition and training. Obviously, it would give some peace of mind to know that you are being optimal in your approach, but imo a lot of the "charm" of the sport also lies in trying different protocols, experimenting and seeing how your body and strength is affected. Bodybuilding (fitness) to me is also about adding to a personal, cumulative body of knowledge that is not rigidly formed around a standing consensus, but rather built on sound and tested principles without ever getting "stuck".
    Last edited by Jenslyn17; 02-26-2011 at 08:26 AM.
    My recommended reading

    http://www.alanaragonblog.com/ - great research review /w practical considerations!

    http://www.biolayne.com.com/ - natural bodybuilder Layne Norton!

    http:://www.bodyrecomposition.com - Lyle McDonald's site - tons of great articles!
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    Originally Posted by Dexter3000 View Post
    Great posts guys! thanks a lot for that.


    To add to the discussion: supporting evidence (empirical data) is found which backs up the claim that individuals who perform resistance training and adhere to a solid diet vs. individuals who don't (and mostly sit on their couch and/or office chair all day), run greater risks of gaining muscle tissue. Comparing both groups, little to non shredded 220lbs men were found in the latter.

    This almost makes you think you should just pay your dues in the gym and adhere a solid diet that supports your physical activities. I wonder .. could that be.. The Secret?
    yes we are ignoring here distribution of work load... it seems all these studies assume you work out once a day and sit on your ass the rest.

    what about the guy who works construction all day and lifts at night?

    what about the guy doing double lifting sessions per day, or cardio for one and lifting for the other, or dual cardio sessions?

    what about the guy who works out hard in the morning, but does 120 push ups or .5 mile walk every 1.5 hours (me) after the work out? (i do this because i have a seditary job)
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    To Layne specifically:

    I read your article, and it was very well-done. However, I disagree with the idea that 1) 8 meals per day will evoke the refractory response and thus inhibit optimal muscle growth, and 2) 2 meals per day is insufficient for optimal muscle retention/growth. We'll take these one at a time...
    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    I agree, we disagree on minute things.

    but for the sake of disagreement...
    Awesome stuff guys.

    Originally Posted by Jenslyn17 View Post
    In some ways I actually like that everything isn't carved in stone when it comes to nutrition and training. Obviously, it would give some peace of mind to know that you are being optimal in your approach, but imo a lot of the "charm" of the sport also lies in trying different protocols, experimenting and seeing how your body and strength is affected. Bodybuilding (fitness) to me is also about adding to a personal, cumulative body of knowledge that is not rigidly formed around a standing consensus, but rather built on sound and tested principles without ever getting "stuck".
    100% agree. If everything in life was a "gimme", what would life be?

    Originally Posted by synthetic View Post
    yes we are ignoring here distribution of work load... it seems all these studies assume you work out once a day and sit on your ass the rest.

    what about the guy who works construction all day and lifts at night? Eat more to compensate.

    what about the guy doing double lifting sessions per day, or cardio for one and lifting for the other, or dual cardio sessions? Just curious but why double lifting/cardio sessions? I can understand lifting one session, and cardio the other but like AA said, as long as your not lifting and then running a marathon shortly after there's no need to get all worked up over it.

    what about the guy who works out hard in the morning, but does 120 push ups or .5 mile walk every 1.5 hours (me) after the work out? (i do this because i have a seditary job)That's just ludicrous.
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    Originally Posted by synthetic View Post
    yes we are ignoring here distribution of work load... it seems all these studies assume you work out once a day and sit on your ass the rest.

    what about the guy who works construction all day and lifts at night?

    what about the guy doing double lifting sessions per day, or cardio for one and lifting for the other, or dual cardio sessions?

    what about the guy who works out hard in the morning, but does 120 push ups or .5 mile walk every 1.5 hours (me) after the work out? (i do this because i have a seditary job)
    I believe the point was that the timing of your meals is largely exaggerated with the exception of those individuals who are performing multiple high intensity work bouts in a single day (such as those athletes who compete in multiple track events over a single day). I doubt precisely timing your meals after your workout would have much of an impact on your ability to perform push-ups and walk a half mile. There may be some minor benefits of precisely timing your meals "x" number of minutes pre/post workout, but there are far greater things to concern yourself with in the end and other factors which would contribute far greater to your overall success.

    To the guy above me: There may be reasons why someone does double lifting/cardio sessions during a day. One of my friends from grad school runs a lot of marathons and he did two cardio sessions on the same day. It was a way for him to get his mileage up while minimizing the affects of muscular fatigue. Also, some people do double lifting sessions so that they can maintain the intensity of the workout. Typically the lifting sessions will be brief, but this allows you to increase the intensity. It is not a philosophy I would prescribe someone to do all the time, but it is viable within specific parts of the training program depending on one's goals.
    Last edited by SumDumGoi; 02-26-2011 at 10:22 AM.
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    I'm here for the post-exercise carb orgy.
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    Originally Posted by Holyspokes View Post
    I'm here for the post-exercise carb orgy.
    IIFYM, then go for it.

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    Originally Posted by SumDumGoi View Post
    To the guy above me: There may be reasons why someone does double lifting/cardio sessions during a day. One of my friends from grad school runs a lot of marathons and he did two cardio sessions on the same day. It was a way for him to get his mileage up while minimizing the affects of muscular fatigue. Also, some people do double lifting sessions so that they can maintain the intensity of the workout. Typically the lifting sessions will be brief, but this allows you to increase the intensity. It is not a philosophy I would prescribe someone to do all the time, but it is viable within specific parts of the training program depending on one's goals.
    Good point, Makes sense now. Thanks
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    Had one of these pre-workout yesterday, hit a PR on Romanian deadlifts.



    It was, of course, clean and home-made
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    Had one of these pre-workout yesterday, hit a PR on Romanian deadlifts.



    It was, of course, clean and home-made
    Wow, those look damn good.
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    Had one of these pre-workout yesterday, hit a PR on Romanian deadlifts.



    It was, of course, clean and home-made
    this post would be 100 times better with a recipe
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