Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[neddo]

Thanks, what about C4 is that any good while fasting?

It's a stim, one I failed to mention as I feel it's rather mediocre; but the creatine nitrate per the formula is enough reason for me to run a tub (nigh the only reason, however).

[psiterror]

sorry I don't understand.What?

[neddo]

If you've already purchased it, go for it.

If not, I'd opt for one of those I mentioned.

[KevJr88]

My favorite pre workout is rockstar. I have tried so many. I don't think the itty bitty extra pump is worth the money they want for all the 'fancy' stuff. But that's just me.

[saw7988]

When I train fasted I've always taken 10g BCAAs per MB's recommendations. Today I came across this article though, which is pretty adamantly opposed to that idea: http://www.gulfcoastpersonaltraining...sted-training/

I have some strong thoughts on this, but I wanted to hear some responses from you guys first. Thanks.

[psiterror]

O ok thanks Neddo I did buy the small one but will it break my fast?

[neddo]

When I train fasted I've always taken 10g BCAAs per MB's recommendations. Today I came across this article though, which is pretty adamantly opposed to that idea: http://www.gulfcoastpersonaltraining...sted-training/

I have some strong thoughts on this, but I wanted to hear some responses from you guys first. Thanks.

Don't have time to read this, but I'm sure it's flawed. 5g leucine and call it a day.

O ok thanks Neddo I did buy the small one but will it break my fast?

Nope.

[KevJr88]

When I train fasted I've always taken 10g BCAAs per MB's recommendations. Today I came across this article though, which is pretty adamantly opposed to that idea: http://www.gulfcoastpersonaltraining...sted-training/

I have some strong thoughts on this, but I wanted to hear some responses from you guys first. Thanks.

It's an interesting read. But when it comes online articles I dont pay attention without references. He might be right, he might be wrong. But there's so much misinformation online that I am skeptical of almost everything posted in absence of good references.

[saw7988]

So I personally disagree with the article as well. IMO the article is vastly overstating the benefits of fasted training (whether or not BCAAs do hinder that is kiiiinda irrelevant IMO). Second, the article is countering what I believe to be an incorrect reason to take BCAAs in the first place. The article says it's for preventing protein catabolism, but I'm under the impression Martin recommends BCAAs for the metabolism boosting benefits of pre-workout protein: http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html

[KevJr88]

So I personally disagree with the article as well. IMO the article is vastly overstating the benefits of fasted training (whether or not BCAAs do hinder that is kiiiinda irrelevant IMO). Second, the article is countering what I believe to be an incorrect reason to take BCAAs in the first place. The article says it's for preventing protein catabolism, but I'm under the impression Martin recommends BCAAs for the metabolism boosting benefits of pre-workout protein: http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html

I've seen studies like the one he has sited as well:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21775557

"
Abstract

BACKGROUND:

The effects of essential amino acid (EAA) supplementation during moderate steady state (ie, endurance) exercise on postexercise skeletal muscle metabolism are not well described, and the potential role of supplemental leucine on muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and associated molecular responses remains to be elucidated.

OBJECTIVE:

This randomized crossover study examined whether EAA supplementation with 2 different concentrations of leucine affected post-steady state exercise MPS, whole-body protein turnover, and mammalian target of rapamycin 1 (mTORC1) intracellular signaling.

DESIGN:

Eight adults completed 2 separate bouts of cycle ergometry [60 min, 60% VO(2)peak (peak oxygen uptake)]. Isonitrogenous (10 g EAA) drinks with different leucine contents [leucine-enriched (l)-EAA, 3.5 g leucine; EAA, 1.87 g leucine] were consumed during exercise. MPS and whole-body protein turnover were determined by using primed continuous infusions of [(2)H(5)]phenylalanine and [1-(13)C]leucine. Multiplex and immunoblot analyses were used to quantify mTORC1 signaling.

RESULTS:

MPS was 33% greater (P < 0.05) after consumption of L-EAA (0.08 ± 0.01%/h) than after consumption of EAA (0.06 ± 0.01%/h). Whole-body protein breakdown and synthesis were lower (P < 0.05) and oxidation was greater (P < 0.05) after consumption of L-EAA than after consumption of EAA. Regardless of dietary treatment, multiplex analysis indicated that Akt and mammalian target of rapamycin phosphorylation were increased (P < 0.05) 30 min after exercise. Immunoblot analysis indicated that phosphorylation of ribo****l protein S6 and extracellular-signal regulated protein kinase increased (P < 0.05) and phosphorylation of eukaryotic elongation factor 2 decreased (P < 0.05) after exercise but was not affected by dietary treatment.

CONCLUSION:

These findings suggest that increasing the concentration of leucine in an EAA supplement consumed during steady state exercise elicits a greater MPS response during recovery. This trial is registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT01366924.

This one in particular speaks more favorably in regard to Leucine added to the drink.

[neddo]

Buy Genomyx Protocol v2; thank me later (seriously the best IF supplement, I'm thoroughly convinced due to the COP & Leucine alone, the other 2 studs are amazing in and of themselves as well). Dose at 1.5-2 servings 15 minutes before you lift your first weight.

[Daycrawler]

Buy Genomyx Protocol v2; thank me later (seriously the best IF supplement, I'm thoroughly convinced due to the COP & Leucine alone, the other 2 studs are amazing in and of themselves as well). Dose at 1.5-2 servings 15 minutes before you lift your first weight.

Thanks man. It's true. I'm a big fan of IF. I enjoy Protocol+Craze.

Hemavol+Protocol+Craze is also a given for back day as I need that endurance factor after getting my ass kicked by pulling deadlifts...

[Gabriel Anton]

Buy Genomyx Protocol v2; thank me later (seriously the best IF supplement, I'm thoroughly convinced due to the COP & Leucine alone, the other 2 studs are amazing in and of themselves as well). Dose at 1.5-2 servings 15 minutes before you lift your first weight.

How do you think it compares to the ubiquitous Xtend

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sv...cfece90a536c10
third party link edited out..

[neddo]

I'd unlink your competitor site, despite it being the site I go through for all of my needs, as it's against forum rules.

And also in accordance with the rep rules, I'm not able to issue bias but I will say I still prefer the latter you have linked at this time. If you are on the other boards, I would gladly explain it there (same handle on all of them, if you'd like to PM me). That said, Xtend is still an undoubtedly solid product standalone.

[KevJr88]

I would like to try Xtend + added leucine due to the study I posted above. Its definitely going to be one of my pet projects (come febuary during bulk).

[neddo]

BCAAs are significantly less important on a bulk, as you are already consuming an excess of calories and creating an anabolic environment in that regard alone. You would be better off spending that on food imo.

Recomps/cuts are the only times I'd use any type of leucine/BCAA supplement.

[KevJr88]

Yeah, I understand why you would do it in that way. I prefer them year round.

The only reason is because Leucine stimulates protein synthesis. If it doesn't, then the scientific community has had some seriously flawed results, over the course of several studies.

That's a favorable condition for my body regardless of nutrient intake or physique goals. Even on a crash diet increased protein synthesis couldn't be negative. Especially if it is in regard to muscle tissue.

Just my .02

[saw7988]

Agree with Neddo. Also, KevJr, any idea what the timespan is on measuring MPS in the study you posted? I know a very very common flaw in MPS studies is only measuring for a few hours or half a day or so, but often times studies with longer time periods show that the differences are negligible.

[KevJr88]

I'm not totally sure, posting from my mobile right now. When I get home I'll pull up the full article. Perhaps we can dig out some more information.

[saw7988]

So I personally disagree with the article as well. IMO the article is vastly overstating the benefits of fasted training (whether or not BCAAs do hinder that is kiiiinda irrelevant IMO). Second, the article is countering what I believe to be an incorrect reason to take BCAAs in the first place. The article says it's for preventing protein catabolism, but I'm under the impression Martin recommends BCAAs for the metabolism boosting benefits of pre-workout protein: http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html

Just wanted to clarify/edit things a bit here. I was re-reading 2 relevant LG posts just now (the pre-workout one I linked before as well as the "fasted training boosts muscle growth?" one) - and it seems like the two reasons for pre-workout protein are more closely tied than I thought. The speculation is that the metabolic boost from pre-workout protein is BECAUSE of increased protein synthesis.

So I guess this doesn't change too much though - because if the original article I posted is arguing that the increased protein synthesis is negligible then either they need to argue against the boosted metabolism as well or say more conclusively than Martin does that the two are 100% tied together.

[NBThing]

Hey guys,

How accurate is the IF calculator? http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Everything looks pretty good, and actually comes very close to my own calculations for Faster Weight Loss. Anybody else used it?

[jimsmith9999]

Hey guys,

How accurate is the IF calculator? http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Everything looks pretty good, and actually comes very close to my own calculations for Faster Weight Loss. Anybody else used it?

I haven't used it, but I've heard mixed reviews. I've heard it overestimates for for a lot a of folks. If you are doing a typical fasting program with 3 day/week training and no cardio, make sure you pick the lowest activity rating.

Like any calculator though, use it as a starting point and adjust based on results.

[NBThing]

Ah, I see, thanks!

Yeah, I've already lowered whatever there was said, but now you got me thinking and worried if I should lower it even more.

Calculator told me: 2100kcal on rest day, 2700kcal on workout day; that's on Faster Weight Loss (-30/-10) with Light Activity.
I'm 195lbs, 17% BF, 5'10. I lowered it to 1800kcal on rest, and 2400kcal on workout. 200g protein daily. Any suggestions guys?

[Troma99]

Didn't know this thread existed. Just posting so I can keep tabs on it. Looks solid

[bevans100fitnes]

IF works very well and I have utilized it successfully in the past.

It works via increases in HGH and thus IGF-1 as well as increased insulin sensitivity due to fasting.

Like all other advanced methods, athletes should READ EVERYTHING written by the person designing the diet, because sometimes if one piece is out of place, you can screw up the whole puzzle. (Had a friend end up looking like an anorexic person due to practicing a flawed version of Martin Berkhan's program)

[bevans100fitnes]

It is particularly good at eliminating "stubborn fat" (which for me was lovehandles)...

I would think this is due to fasting having a more pronounced effect on insulin sensitivity than simply low carbing due to absence of protein and thus even lower insulin secretion.

[coloBB]

I have IF'd for about 6 months now, can't imagine going back to the frequent feeding. I have only cut or maintained on it until a few weeks ago I started my first IF bulk.... So far so good, gaining muscle while staying lean FTW

[KevJr88]

It works via increases in HGH and thus IGF-1 as well as increased insulin sensitivity due to fasting.

Explain, you owe us one. This is pretty far out there, brah.

[determined4000]

Like all other advanced methods, athletes should READ EVERYTHING written by the person designing the diet, because sometimes if one piece is out of place, you can screw up the whole puzzle. (Had a friend end up looking like an anorexic person due to practicing a flawed version of Martin Berkhan's program)

Either that or trying to do everything perfectly causes you to develop a disorder
That is far more likely if you are being "obsessive" about the way you eat than if you adopt IF to fit your lifestyle

[Gabriel Anton]

I have IF'd for about 6 months now, can't imagine going back to the frequent feeding. I have only cut or maintained on it until a few weeks ago I started my first IF bulk.... So far so good, gaining muscle while staying lean FTW

Good to hear,

Frequent Feeding seems like even more work when you compare it to IFing.