New Study on Arachidonic Acid! (More Good News)

[SwolenONE]

Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2010 Dec 29. [Epub ahead of print]

Prostaglandin F2{alpha} stimulates PI3K/ERK/mTOR signaling and skeletal myotube hypertrophy.
Markworth JF, Cameron-Smith D.

Abstract

Cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes mediate the synthesis of pro-inflammatory prostaglandin (PG) species from cellular arachidonic acid. COX/PGs have been implicated in skeletal muscle growth/regeneration; however the mechanisms by which PGs influence skeletal muscle adaptation are poorly understood. The present study aimed to investigate PGF(2α) signaling and its role in skeletal myotube hypertrophy. PGF(2α) or the FP receptor agonist fluprostenol increased C2C12 myotube diameter. This effect was abolished by the FP receptor antagonist AL8810 or the mTOR inhibitor rapamycin. PGF(2α) stimulated time and dose dependant increases in the phosphorylation of ERK1/2 (Thr202/Tyr204), p70S6K (Thr389 & Thr421/Ser424) and eIF4G (Ser1108) without influencing Akt (Ser473). Pre-treatment with the phosphoinositide 3-kinase (PI3K) inhibitor LY294002 and the extracellular receptor kinase (ERK) inhibitor PD98059 blocked FP receptor signaling responses whilst rapamycin blocked heightened p70S6K/eIF4G phosphorylation without influencing ERK1/2 phosphorylation. These data suggest that activation of the FP receptor is coupled to C2C12 myotube growth and intracellular signaling via a PI3K/ERK/mTOR dependant pathway.

[rhizome]

Don't feel like reading the study now but the real question is whether or not the concentration used is even physiological. Because if it's not the study and any susbsequent claim or extrapolation to in vivo effects is irrelevent.

[GeneGnomeX]

Don't feel like reading the study now but the real question is whether or not the concentration used is even physiological. Because if it's not the study and any susbsequent claim or extrapolation to in vivo effects is irrelevent.

I can't find in vivo concentrations of PGF2alpha after oral administration with a quick search (maybe it has never been studied).

Studies examining molecular signaling are interesting but like rhizome said of little relevance to real life.

I still maintain that there is no evidence that AA works, considering the major limitations in the Baylor study (see here). Positive testimonials could easily be explained by placebo effect; consider this study that found subjects who thought they were taking an anabolic steroid but were actually taking a placebo increased their bench press ~20-30 pounds over only a month. Considering MN advertises AA as a "steroid alternative" and all of the other mass and strength increasing claims, it isn't surprising that some people improve a lot (and this goes for any supplement). And this is why we need double-blinded studies.

It could work, but there simply isn't sufficient objective evidence yet.

[whitesox23]

Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2010 Dec 29. [Epub ahead of print]

Prostaglandin F2{alpha} stimulates PI3K/ERK/mTOR signaling and skeletal myotube hypertrophy.
Markworth JF, Cameron-Smith D.

Abstract

Cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes mediate the synthesis of pro-inflammatory prostaglandin (PG) species from cellular arachidonic acid. COX/PGs have been implicated in skeletal muscle growth/regeneration; however the mechanisms by which PGs influence skeletal muscle adaptation are poorly understood. The present study aimed to investigate PGF(2α) signaling and its role in skeletal myotube hypertrophy. PGF(2α) or the FP receptor agonist fluprostenol increased C2C12 myotube diameter. This effect was abolished by the FP receptor antagonist AL8810 or the mTOR inhibitor rapamycin. PGF(2α) stimulated time and dose dependant increases in the phosphorylation of ERK1/2 (Thr202/Tyr204), p70S6K (Thr389 & Thr421/Ser424) and eIF4G (Ser1108) without influencing Akt (Ser473). Pre-treatment with the phosphoinositide 3-kinase (PI3K) inhibitor LY294002 and the extracellular receptor kinase (ERK) inhibitor PD98059 blocked FP receptor signaling responses whilst rapamycin blocked heightened p70S6K/eIF4G phosphorylation without influencing ERK1/2 phosphorylation. These data suggest that activation of the FP receptor is coupled to C2C12 myotube growth and intracellular signaling via a PI3K/ERK/mTOR dependant pathway.

So long story short...?

[PinchTheBear]

So long story short...?

Nothing new here.

[whitesox23]

Nothing new here.

ArA is still good stuff? Sweet...

[PinchTheBear]

ArA is still good stuff? Sweet...

Yep

[JornT]

So long story short...?

It could work, but there simply isn't sufficient objective evidence yet.

That

[rhizome]

Concentration used in the study is 100-1000x greater than physiological. Is this real life?

[PinchTheBear]

Concentration used in the study is 100-1000x greater than physiological. Is this real life?

They also spelled "dependent" incorrectly in the abstract.

[fitcopforlife]

I still maintain that there is no evidence that AA works, considering the major limitations in the Baylor study (see here). Positive testimonials could easily be explained by placebo effect; consider this study that found subjects who thought they were taking an anabolic steroid but were actually taking a placebo increased their bench press ~20-30 pounds over only a month. Considering MN advertises AA as a "steroid alternative" and all of the other mass and strength increasing claims, it isn't surprising that some people improve a lot (and this goes for any supplement). And this is why we need double-blinded studies.

It could work, but there simply isn't sufficient objective evidence yet.

So your saying all of the positive feedback that ArA has gained is from a "placebo effect." Come on, most of these testamonial's clearly state what the consumer is visually seeing as well. Muscle fullness, increased vascularity, improved body comp.etc..

I do agree some of the strength claims (from any supplement) can be a placebo effect but that is not the only positive aspect being heard from supplementing with ArA.

[Sldge]

I can't find in vivo concentrations of PGF2alpha after oral administration with a quick search (maybe it has never been studied).

Studies examining molecular signaling are interesting but like rhizome said of little relevance to real life.

I still maintain that there is no evidence that AA works, considering the major limitations in the Baylor study (see here). Positive testimonials could easily be explained by placebo effect; consider this study that found subjects who thought they were taking an anabolic steroid but were actually taking a placebo increased their bench press ~20-30 pounds over only a month. Considering MN advertises AA as a "steroid alternative" and all of the other mass and strength increasing claims, it isn't surprising that some people improve a lot (and this goes for any supplement). And this is why we need double-blinded studies.

It could work, but there simply isn't sufficient objective evidence yet.

PGF2a is injected so I doubt there is any oral info out there but then again I havent looked at PGF2a in about 7 years. IIRC it has a half life of about 5mins when injected and a single tab of tylenol completely negates its effects.

So your saying all of the positive feedback that ArA has gained is from a "placebo effect." Come on, most of these testamonial's clearly state what the consumer is visually seeing as well. Muscle fullness, increased vascularity, improved body comp.etc..

I do agree some of the strength claims (from any supplement) can be a placebo effect but that is not the only positive aspect being heard from supplementing with ArA.

What he is saying that if you use ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC data which is measurable instead of just people's responses there isnt enough information to suggest it works beyond what a placebo effect could give.

[halberstram]

Used it 4 caps preworkout, noticed nothing. No extra soreness, or extra gains. Waste of $50 imo.

[GoldenGains]

Used it 4 caps preworkout, noticed nothing. No extra soreness, or extra gains. Waste of $50 imo.

red

[GoldenGains]

Wasn't there validity in the Baylor Study?

[MJ1331]

Wasn't there validity in the Baylor Study?

That's going to to depend on what you consider "good" research.

[velocityrob]

Used it 4 caps preworkout, noticed nothing. No extra soreness, or extra gains. Waste of $50 imo.

Anything else valid to add?

Oh please. I rather the FDA start regulating supplements because 99% of them are worthless anyway and won't be missed.

Thanks again for your quality input.

[halberstram]

Anything else valid to add?



Thanks again for your quality input.

I'd like to see you refute both those statements then. FOR ME, AA did nothing. I noticed literally not a single thing. Nothing good or bad.

[halberstram]

PGF2a is injected so I doubt there is any oral info out there but then again I havent looked at PGF2a in about 7 years. IIRC it has a half life of about 5mins when injected and a single tab of tylenol completely negates its effects.


What he is saying that if you use ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC data which is measurable instead of just people's responses there isnt enough information to suggest it works beyond what a placebo effect could give.

Which are utterly worthless as we all know.

[GoldenGains]

I'd like to see you refute both those statements then. FOR ME, AA did nothing. I noticed literally not a single thing. Nothing good or bad.

Not everything works for everyone but I detect a troll. I'm guessing this was the result of a poor diet.

[halberstram]

Not everything works for everyone but I detect a troll. I'm guessing this was the result of a poor diet.

lol typical answer. Poor diet. Thanks, but my diet was pristine as always.

[GeneGnomeX]

Over/under for how long it takes until this study is used to sell fish oil as a muscle builder http://www.ajcn.org/content/93/2/402.abstract

[MJ1331]

i just got a copy from my library. Does anybody want the full article?

[Sldge]

Over/under for how long it takes until this study is used to sell fish oil as a muscle builder http://www.ajcn.org/content/93/2/402.abstract

It isnt already?

[De__eB]

Which are utterly worthless as we all know.

You know....there are a lot of intelligent very critical people on these boards, and all of them manage to dismantle bad products while staying in the green, some of them very much so.

They also typically come up with intelligent arguments for/against ingredients/products.

You're doing it wrong.

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Still a firm believer due to my training limitations and noted progress.

[halberstram]

You know....there are a lot of intelligent very critical people on these boards, and all of them manage to dismantle bad products while staying in the green, some of them very much so.

They also typically come up with intelligent arguments for/against ingredients/products.

You're doing it wrong.

I got mod negged on the misc, not on this section.

[MJ1331]

my only concern is that consuming a pro inflammatory supplement will cause increase in inflammatory cytokines systemically and in all muscle, not just skeletal muscle. Short term maybe no big deal, but the long term effects have not been studied. Also, having a pro inflammatory state can lead to many morbidities. Yeah, im young and healthy now but i want to think about having a healthy future.

No bash, just discussing.

[PinchTheBear]

my only concern is that consuming a pro inflammatory supplement will cause increase in inflammatory cytokines systemically and in all muscle, not just skeletal muscle.

The inflammatory response is the other way around, i.e., the cytokine/PG cascade is upstream rather than downstream; however, adding substrate (ArA) under the right conditions does potentiate the pro-inflammatory effects of cytokines.

[MJ1331]

The inflammatory response is the other way around, i.e., the cytokine/PG cascade is upstream rather than downstream; however, adding substrate (ArA) under the right conditions does potentiate the pro-inflammatory effects of cytokines.

I have attached a diagram & table. ArA is ingest then is biotransformed into PGs and LTs which have their effects carried out by chemical mediaters. Taking more of ArA will lead to more PG and LT. What do you mean by it is upstream?

Edit: i realize the table is too involved for the conversation, but its just to give the gist of my opinion.