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  1. #31
    Olympic Lifter & Coach GqArtguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by raffiki View Post
    Do you really think it is likely that a guy with sound technique will not see results by increasing his squat from 150 to 250? Provided of course he puts in reasonable practice on the competition lifts.
    I didnt say 150 to 250, I said 300 to 400.
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  2. #32
    PhD in Broscience crackyflipside's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GqArtguy View Post
    I didnt say 150 to 250, I said 300 to 400.
    Even the case with MSIC qualified SHW lifters the mean back squat was 135.5% [+/- 5.5%]. So let's go crazy with a 270kg clean and jerk, even though the data for world record holders was not published but it states their results were higher than MSIC lifters. Assume the high range of the MSIC number of 135% + 5.5% = 141% to get us close to WR results. That would give us a back squat of 380kg and if we take low range of MSIC that is still 350kg.
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  3. #33
    Olympic Lifter raffiki's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GqArtguy View Post
    I didnt say 150 to 250, I said 300 to 400.
    I know, but that really has nothing to do with the discussion. Nobody squats 300 on this board. A lot of people do squat about 150. How important is the back squat to our progress? Very important.
    "However, the strength of the hamstring muscles is crucial to fully exploit the strength potential of the quads and ultimately the vertical force that the athlete is able to impart to the barbell." - Andrew Charniga, Jr.
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  4. #34
    Olympic Lifter & Coach GqArtguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by raffiki View Post
    I know, but that really has nothing to do with the discussion. Nobody squats 300 on this board. A lot of people do squat about 150. How important is the back squat to our progress? Very important.
    I wasnt talking about 'everybody' I was talking about the examples being discussed (i.e. the Russian superheavies). You need to reread my post again: "You can if you know their totals with earlier maxes. For example, if the lifters squatted 300kg and cleaned 260, but then raised their squat max to 400kg and still cleaned 260, then obviously that extra 100kg didnt have an impact." Im addressing another poster who said theres no way to tell if the extra squat strength was beneficial and provided an example of a way.

    The rest of you are arguing about whether back squats are overhyped, which given the videos that are posted here and if what you say is true in terms of squat strength, everyone here would be wise to work on technique and strength.
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  5. #35
    KNEES GO PAST TOES GoJu's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by someonefat View Post


    130lb men do more then that at pro level probably couldn't even deadlift 500lbs.




    .
    You think Shi Zhiyong can't deadlift 500lbs?!

    Zhang Ghouzeng is a 69kg lifter and does clean pulls with over 500lbs and he isn't the only one, this whole post is absurd but this one part took the cake.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by agvares View Post
    not much
    no obvious correlation
    just spit water all over my keyboard lulz.

    repped.
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  7. #37
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    IMO there's a much bigger correlation between the front squat and the comp lifts.
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  8. #38
    Registered User agvares's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CelticTheTruth View Post
    IMO there's a much bigger correlation between the front squat and the comp lifts.
    well, it greatly depends on HOW you squat more than on HOW MUCH you squat.
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  9. #39
    Registered User someonefat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GoJu View Post
    You think Shi Zhiyong can't deadlift 500lbs?!

    Zhang Ghouzeng is a 69kg lifter and does clean pulls with over 500lbs and he isn't the only one, this whole post is absurd but this one part took the cake.
    whole point is that he is nowhere near as strong as him but because he is very technically proficient can lift much more weight. The guy responding to saying someone with no technique who just strong will out lift guy weaker with amazing technique which is absurd.

    speaking of zhang he has like a 200kg clean and jerk yet video of him bs 220kg which looked fairly difficult for him.
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  10. #40
    Olympic Lifter & Coach GqArtguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by someonefat View Post
    speaking of zhang he has like a 200kg clean and jerk yet video of him bs 220kg which looked fairly difficult for him.

    You think these looked difficult?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI

    Seems pretty damn easy to me.
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  11. #41
    Registered User disgorge89's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by someonefat View Post
    I kind of agree with this

    higher bs doesn't mean bigger numbers in the lifts

    there have been plenty of top lifters with 'weak' squats relative to other lifters yet would still put up bigger competition lifts

    or lifters that would have world record type sqauts put up weak competition totals-shane hamman 1k+ squat with loose old single ply. His total was like 40kg lower then say anatoly pisarenko who only had about 620lb sqaut nearly 400lbs less then shane-yet totaled significantly higher-.

    yes its important to an extent that you need certain level of strength to move the weight yet I don't think its the most important thing.

    more emphasis on bs isn't necessarily going to produce better results for you.


    "1. Squats alone do not address the technique of the clean. Technique has a significant effect on the bio – mechanical efficiency of the clean and consequently the effort required of the recovery phase.
    2. The legs generate the most productive power in weightlifting (or for that matter in most of athletics) over a relatively small range of motion at the knee, hip and ankle joints. The hamstring muscles (within that relatively small range of motion at the knee, ankle and hip, where the lifter generates the greatest forces on the barbell) are not strengthened by squatting. '



    'Alexander Kurlovich, said he witnessed Pisarenko miss a squat of 260 kgs in training; only to clean and jerk it 5 days later. According to Taranenko, “if he (Pisarenko) had to stop at the bottom of a clean, he would not be able to get up”

    'Yuri Zakharevich apparently is between the two extremes of the examples cited. His best front squat was 250 kgs, done at the time of his best clean of 265 kgs. His best back squat was 300 kgs x 2; power clean 235 kgs; and, snatch from blocks – 215 kgs. '
    Ivan Chakarov had kind of bad technique but he could back squat 330-350kg at 90, he did alright. Rezazadeh had just plain awful technique but he did quite well too. Pisarenko/Kolecki are outliers. A reasonable majority of the time, I'm guessing the people with the highest totals are also capable of out-backsquatting the competition. Superheavyweights are also a special consideration in that they will have a higher ratio of slow strength/speed strength than light lifters; the backsquat has a diminishing marginal impact on results in the clean and jerk, on average, as bodyweight increases.

    Hammon trained the lifts for like 4 years, there's no way he would have made those totals if he'd only been able to squat 600lbs prior to entering the sport. Comparing him to guys like pisarenko is kind of ridiculous, try comparing him to pisarenko after only 4 years of doing the lifts.


    As one gets further along toward their genetic potential in any athletic endeavor, specialization needs to be increased to mandate progress. None of us are world class Olympic lifters and will therefore likely experience a higher impact on results in the clean and jerk and snatch given an increase in the backsquat than individuals with decades of full-time training. The backsquat also helps the pulling mechanics of both lifts in addition to helping you stand up from the clean, which is why its going to have a more dramatic impact than the front squat unless there's a large discrepancy between one's pulling and squatting abilities. (If you can rack much more than you can stand up with, maybe front squatting is more beneficial than backsquatting, otherwise it's unlikely.)
    Last edited by disgorge89; 12-03-2010 at 02:20 AM.
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  12. #42
    Olympic Lifter raffiki's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by someonefat View Post
    whole point is that he is nowhere near as strong as him but because he is very technically proficient can lift much more weight. The guy responding to saying someone with no technique who just strong will out lift guy weaker with amazing technique which is absurd.

    speaking of zhang he has like a 200kg clean and jerk yet video of him bs 220kg which looked fairly difficult for him.
    Once again the topic was normal local-level lifters and the discussion turned to freakish elite levels. What he said was that lifters who don't have much experience, therefore poor technique, will beat lifters with good technique when there is a big difference in general strength. So a lifter who squats 200 will beat lifters who squat 130, even if the strong guy can only power snatch/clean. Nobody with real experience would argue with that.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by someonefat View Post
    Technique and also the explosive power is much different then pure brute strength. Someone with amazing technique will almost always out lift brute strength guy with no technique.
    And still there are weightlifters who have pressed over 200 kg, squatted near 400 kg, rack pulled 500 kg. I mean, how much stronger could you possibly get!?

    To say "Technique and also the explosive power is much different then pure brute strength." just doesn't make much sense.
    Last edited by Squinky; 12-03-2010 at 10:55 AM.
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  14. #44
    KNEES GO PAST TOES GoJu's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by someonefat View Post
    whole point is that he is nowhere near as strong as him but because he is very technically proficient can lift much more weight. The guy responding to saying someone with no technique who just strong will out lift guy weaker with amazing technique which is absurd.

    speaking of zhang he has like a 200kg clean and jerk yet video of him bs 220kg which looked fairly difficult for him.
    I highly doubht 220kg is a hard squat for him on a regular basis, we all have bad days.

    edit: that was a stupidly easy double btw, I don't know what squat you're looking at

    stop reading so many bud charniga articles
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  15. #45
    Registered Nutcase eyeoftheworld's Avatar
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    Squats are important for strength (or almost any) athletes.

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  16. #46
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    The back squat is the most important exercise of all since it engages almost all of the muscles for balance & strength. It takes a lot of weight & reps to make the quads grow. They are the largest muscle group in the body!
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  17. #47
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    Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post
    Too often.



    I still don't understand how backsquat has no correlation to some of you guys. You need to squat about 130% of your best clean and jerk, less than that and you are pushing the limits of your own absolute strength and your technique is probably pretty awesome but won't see bigger gains on your competition lifts until you push your squat higher.

    Edit: Here we go, had to speed read through a few of my books to find the correlation for the OP and others. These are averages from all weight classes taken in 1976, A.T. Ivanov.

    Class 3 (50% of world record): Back squat 125.5% of max clean and jerk
    Class 2 (55%): 126%
    Class 1 (60%): 127%
    Candidate to Master of Sport (70%): 127.7%
    Master of Sport (75%): 128.7%
    Master of Sport International Class (95%): 133%
    Cracky... there you go with math and statistics and being analytical instead of using "I feel like..." ;-)

    Back squat is as important to lifting as breathing is. As is Front Squat. That said, back squat is directly proportional to your front squat, therefore an increase in back squat generally translates into a higher front squat which will in turn mean beter ability to stand up in the rack position.

    Now this assumes that you are back squatting in the high bar... low bar will do nothing for your lifts. (enter disagreement about using low bar for hamstring recruitment here... you do RDLs and good mornings in my book for hamstring development)

    So yeah... BS
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  18. #48
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    Back squats are good for general weightlifting strength because it strengthens the posture, the pulling muscles, and the clean recovery muscles. Front squats train position and clean recovery muscles, and less general strength. If your pull is lagging behind your recoveries, back squats should be emphasized. If your pull is stronger than your recovery, front squats should be emphasized. If you are balanced, I have been told back squats should be emphasized in non-competition cycles and front squats emphasized in competition cycles.
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  19. #49
    Registered User Greco-Roman's Avatar
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    This thread is a lot of BS.
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    Originally Posted by gymadviser View Post
    Great thread.
    Stop bumping ancient threads with empty one liners
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