This whole homosexual thing...

**Enoptix** · 05-22-2003, 05:16 PM

now that we all are talkinga bout religion now.. ill say this

i dont believe in the bible.
i dont believe in organized religion.

I believe church is for those who need it to get by. everyone can find god within themselves, because god is a part of us. We are god. God is everything. God is life. I don't think of god as a person or a single thing. God is, once again, everything.

If the bible is the real deal... i know for a fact that there is nothing in there that relates to religion or churches... Religion is a man made thing, and nowadays i believe it's totally corrupt..

**ChaosJester** · 05-22-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Enoptix
and nowadays i believe it's totally corrupt..

Pretty much so, there are a "few" real places left...

**CalcioFreak** · 05-22-2003, 09:36 PM

'If God dwells inside of us like some people say... I sure hope he likes enchiladas, cuz that's what he's getting.'
-Jack Handey-

**CalcioFreak** · 05-22-2003, 09:40 PM

'The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow on the moon and I have more faith in the shadow than in the Church.'
-Ferdinand Magellan-

**BDHugh** · 05-22-2003, 09:53 PM

You can not depend onan organized religion for spiritual development. This is because organized religion disempowers the individual and empowers the established religious hierarchy. The only way an individual acquires any true spiritual development is when they empower themselves and walk away from the hierarchy and look past the dogmatism that is in EVERY religion including Christianity.

**Ihateeveryone** · 05-22-2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by CalcioFreak
'The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow on the moon and I have more faith in the shadow than in the Church.'
-Ferdinand Magellan-

'Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot, that even he couldn't eat it?'

Homer Simpson to Ned Flanders, after smoking weed.

**Ihateeveryone** · 05-22-2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Enoptix
ihateeveryone, so you don't enjoy having sex with women? you just choose to? its because you want to! Same thing with gay people...

I choose to do it because it I enjoy it - if I chose to do something I didn't enjoy, it would be a bit stupid wouldn't it? You are not born to be gay, you choose to be gay. Stop trying to manipulate my words to mean something else - it won't work, cubby.

**phreak** · 05-23-2003, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
He is actively doing so. You notice he lives differently, that is enough. ... He is following Mattew 5:16, "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. "

If the definition is just leading by example, then yes. But mind you: I didn't even know he was religious at all until we were having a discussion on careers and I asked what line of work he was in. And as for living differently: not so much different from me, actually. In fact he agrees with me that I probably will go to heaven (if it should exist), even though I do not believe in it. According to him, my lifestyle would qualify me for a place there. Might have to go to purgatory first, because I haven't always been a good boy...

Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
Please define zealot and continue to explain how my point of view of religion puts a bad taste in your mouth.

Zealot: a zealous person; especially: a fanatical partisan
with fanatical being taken as:
marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion
So don't get me wrong: it is not your points of view that worry me, but rather the hubris of missionaries in general. Assuming that your view is the only correct one implies that other people's views by definition cannot be. But what if the roles are reversed? What if all atheists and agnostics spent their life actively trying to convert religious people to their way of thinking (or, if you will, believing)?

But we are each basing all argumentational premises on an assumption which neither of us is willing to revise. So if we cannot agree on the frame of reference of a discussion, how can we ever agree on the content?

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-23-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by ChaosJester

Although I slightly agree with you on this point, I do not believe that God will punish us for being gay. I am not gay nor bi, but I do not believe that what they do is wrong. I believe that many parts of the bible are misinterpreted or written in to serve a purpose of a leader. I am a Christian thick and through, but I believe the bible has been altered and warped by the wicked hand of man to achieve means left to their own vices.

A good argument in for your side though...
If a man is attracted to under-age women, like per say 12-14 year olds, would it make it right in the eyes of god to act upon those impulses "just" because he is attracted to those girls? It is not "HIS" fault he attracted to them... Just a good piece of argument.

The bible thumping thing though, JCFREAK, I have to say is a definite negative for our Christian cause. I am very much often turned away from my beliefs from bible thumpers. Sharing your views, is by no means wrong, but being unyielding, not willing to see another persons beliefs or chastising them (saying you will burn if you do not think this way or act this way) is the WORST way to bring others into the church. Who wants to embrace an ideal where they think they can never have any fun and will probably go to hell anyway??? Just my opinion!

Points taken. I do not recall condeming anyone. I usually use scripture when people say that a subject is not covered in the Bible, so I point it out where and what is says. Back on the Bible thumping part, read Levitcus... between 15 and 17 it covers all kinds of nasty stuff.
I don't know if this sounds any better, but to those woho share you personal opinions, I do think about them. I just think they are wrong. I am not trying to offend anyone. Only proclaim what I believe to be True.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-23-2003, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by jon84
here is the thing.
The Bible does say that God calls gay people unrighteous.
And he also mentions that they will not inherit his kingdom.
At 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 this mentions many of the things that
God hate, among those its mentions"men who lie with men".
So according to the Bible which was inspired by God it show that God doesn't approve of it. but it mention in verse 11 that They can change there ways. But this is only if people want to follow Gods standards and make that change because they love God to the full that they are willing to make those changes. The fact is people will do what they want it's there choice. Even if it is agains Gods laws.

True that.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-23-2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Enoptix
now that we all are talkinga bout religion now.. ill say this

i dont believe in the bible.
i dont believe in organized religion.

I believe church is for those who need it to get by. everyone can find god within themselves, because god is a part of us. We are god. God is everything. God is life. I don't think of god as a person or a single thing. God is, once again, everything.

If the bible is the real deal... i know for a fact that there is nothing in there that relates to religion or churches... Religion is a man made thing, and nowadays i believe it's totally corrupt..

Ok... I don't doubt that there is still corruption in the church. I am sorry that you have such a bad taste in your mouth for organized religion. The best thing I can say is that people fail.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you use to decide right and wrong?

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-23-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by BDHugh
You can not depend onan organized religion for spiritual development. This is because organized religion disempowers the individual and empowers the established religious hierarchy. The only way an individual acquires any true spiritual development is when they empower themselves and walk away from the hierarchy and look past the dogmatism that is in EVERY religion including Christianity.

There is some truth to that. There are organizations of religion that hinder spiritual growth, but there are a few that help spiritual growth. In my experiance, the organization of the church can get you only so far. It gets really deep when it is just you and God.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-23-2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by phreak
If the definition is just leading by example, then yes. But mind you: I didn't even know he was religious at all until we were having a discussion on careers and I asked what line of work he was in. And as for living differently: not so much different from me, actually. In fact he agrees with me that I probably will go to heaven (if it should exist), even though I do not believe in it. According to him, my lifestyle would qualify me for a place there. Might have to go to purgatory first, because I haven't always been a good boy...

Zealot: a zealous person; especially: a fanatical partisan
with fanatical being taken as:
marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion
So don't get me wrong: it is not your points of view that worry me, but rather the hubris of missionaries in general. Assuming that your view is the only correct one implies that other people's views by definition cannot be. But what if the roles are reversed? What if all atheists and agnostics spent their life actively trying to convert religious people to their way of thinking (or, if you will, believing)?

But we are each basing all argumentational premises on an assumption which neither of us is willing to revise. So if we cannot agree on the frame of reference of a discussion, how can we ever agree on the content?

Being that I do not believe in Purgatory ( I am almost certain the concept of Purgatory was entirely made up by the Catholic Church to get more people in the doors), I cannot say that I am as opptumistic about your eternal destination. Only God knows though.
With the following definition of zealot, I take that as a compliment. I think that moral reltavists and atheists do try to convert religous people, they do it in a far more covert way. Not to get too deep, the life of a Christian is and will always be an uphill battle as long as Satan is free.

**el cid** · 05-23-2003, 10:07 PM

I do not believe in god, or the bible. We are all animals, we have evolved to what we are today, and eventually the human race will cease to exist. You know, I'm pretty sure scientist and their "facts" can prove this. The bible contradicts itself hundreds of times, and is obviously a huge fairytale written by men who think they know what their talking about. Take a look around this world that we live in before you praise "god" for being so blessed, or are you blind to the other people not as lucky as you? Take a look at other places in the world, where children die everyday witout ever even hearing the word "Jesus", or "Christianity". Would people really have to suffer so much if their really was a God? If you say yes, then you have never truely suffered. The sad thing is, people like my parents think that by forcing me to go to church or face punishment is going to make me change my beliefs. They won't even listen to me when I questions the church. The same thing goes for every other Christian I have tried to have a conversation with. I always get the same, "you just have to have faith" speech, or something along those lines.

**sqweezer** · 05-24-2003, 01:18 AM

then why would a gay man have sex with a women then, . Gay men are spreading aids like wildfires. Giving it to men, then the men giving it to women. Get rid of gays you get rid of aids. Anyone remember ayde's candy, it had the aids symbol on it, trippin

**phreak** · 05-24-2003, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by sqweezer
Gay men are spreading aids like wildfires. ..... Get rid of gays you get rid of aids.

*sigh* Sure. That's why the vast majority of new cases are in heterosexual people... Do some research before posting any stupidity.

**phreak** · 05-24-2003, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
Being that I do not believe in Purgatory ( I am almost certain the concept of Purgatory was entirely made up by the Catholic Church to get more people in the doors), I cannot say that I am as opptumistic about your eternal destination. Only God knows though.

And here's me thinking I still had a chance...

What a cruel god you have. Just because I honestly say that I cannot believe in him/her for want of proof of existance, I automatically get sent to hell, without any consideration for the kind of life I lead! Seems a trifle unfair.

With the following definition of zealot, I take that as a compliment.

You take being excessive and uncritical in your devotion as a compliment?

Not to get too deep, the life of a Christian is and will always be an uphill battle as long as Satan is free.

So maybe now you can imagine what the life of non-heterosexuals must be like? And you've actually chosen your religion, we have not chosen our sexual preference.

**supersize77** · 05-24-2003, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by el cid
I do not believe in god, or the bible. We are all animals, we have evolved to what we are today, and eventually the human race will cease to exist. You know, I'm pretty sure scientist and their "facts" can prove this. The bible contradicts itself hundreds of times, and is obviously a huge fairytale written by men who think they know what their talking about. Take a look around this world that we live in before you praise "god" for being so blessed, or are you blind to the other people not as lucky as you? Take a look at other places in the world, where children die everyday witout ever even hearing the word "Jesus", or "Christianity". Would people really have to suffer so much if their really was a God? If you say yes, then you have never truely suffered. The sad thing is, people like my parents think that by forcing me to go to church or face punishment is going to make me change my beliefs. They won't even listen to me when I questions the church. The same thing goes for every other Christian I have tried to have a conversation with. I always get the same, "you just have to have faith" speech, or something along those lines.

If you are certain that the bible contradicts itself hundreds of times then you can easily give me 5 examples of this, right? I'm sure you have read the bible thouroughly and are therefore in a position to reject its contents, right? So please, name 5 contradictions out the hundreds that you say are in the bible.

**supersize77** · 05-24-2003, 04:31 AM

I would definitely argue that homosexuality is indeed a choice and not a genetic thing, but then I try to put myself in your shoes and for the life of me I can't understand how you guys get off on some nasty dudes smelly a-hole and hairy cockandballs over a nice tan longlegged babe with a killer body. What you guys do is not just fornication, it goes against nature itself. So since I have no tendency and cannot even understand the tendency to desire my own sex, I assume you guys are definitely born with a predisposition (at least some my be) but you CHOOSE to act upon that perversion so the responsibility and thus the consequences of your lifestyle lie with you. C'mon if your lifestyle was normal than dudes would be poppin kids out of their crappers.

**CalcioFreak** · 05-24-2003, 08:18 AM

'Beware the man of a single book'
-Bertrand Russell-

**CalcioFreak** · 05-24-2003, 08:36 AM

For all of you who want to continue to base you lives around the anachronistic beliefs in the bible, perhaps you should delve in there and follow more of the things that god told you to do. On Sunday for instance you should probably smelt a bull with you neighbors so the smoke will rise to heaven, this makes god happy, and those of you with girl children don't forget, as soon as they turn thirteen god says it's a perfect time to sell them to whomever you see fit, he didn't discuss price however, this is apparently still up to you. I recommend getting at least a dozen sheep or one ox, ask for more than that if she's got good child bearin' hips.

**phreak** · 05-24-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by supersize77
I would definitely argue that homosexuality is indeed a choice and not a genetic thing, but then I try to put myself in your shoes and for the life of me I can't understand how you guys get off on some nasty dudes smelly a-hole and hairy cockandballs over a nice tan longlegged babe with a killer body.

Straight men only have sex with hot women? And here's me thinking all the fat ugly chicks get boned too... And of course we all know women NEVER smell like rotting tuna and are always properly shaved. I always wonder why people think gay men will have sex with just any other man.

Originally posted by supersize77
What you guys do is not just fornication, it goes against nature itself.

Go tell that to John H.

Originally posted by supersize77
So since I have no tendency and cannot even understand the tendency to desire my own sex, I assume you guys are definitely born with a predisposition (at least some my be) but you CHOOSE to act upon that perversion so the responsibility and thus the consequences of your lifestyle lie with you. C'mon if your lifestyle was normal than dudes would be poppin kids out of their crappers.

At least you realise sexual preference is a given, not a choice. But how can it be a perversion if one does not choose to be that way? If it is genetic, then it must be natural.

But yes, acting upon those (or any other) urges is a choice. Why does that give people the right to judge? As long as no laws are broken and everyone respects other's rights, what are we doing wrong? Do gays & bisexuals deserve to be discriminated against for doing what feels normal to them?

**el cid** · 05-24-2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by supersize77
If you are certain that the bible contradicts itself hundreds of times then you can easily give me 5 examples of this, right? I'm sure you have read the bible thouroughly and are therefore in a position to reject its contents, right? So please, name 5 contradictions out the hundreds that you say are in the bible.

Search for "Bible Contradictions" anywhere on the internet, and I'm sure you will find your five. And no these arn't people making up things, they are real, look them up if you have to.

**supersize77** · 05-25-2003, 01:00 AM

But yes, acting upon those (or any other) urges is a choice. Why does that give people the right to judge? As long as no laws are broken and everyone respects other's rights, what are we doing wrong? Do gays & bisexuals deserve to be discriminated against for doing what feels normal to them? [/B][/QUOTE]

You do have the right to be gay, and I have the right to tell you why I believe that its wrong. I believe in the Bible and its condemnation of homosexuality. I take the Bible as a whole and do not believe it contradicts itself (at least the original text written in Greek in Hebrew). So I beleive that God's laws are being broken and I have a right to say that, and you have a God given right to ignore that and keep having sex with men and whomever else you can. I believe there are serious consequences for that type of behavior, and you probably do not. Only time will prove one of us right and the other dead wrong, but the way I see I don't have much to lose in this wager and quite a bit to gain.

**phreak** · 05-25-2003, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by supersize77
You do have the right to be gay, and I have the right to tell you why I believe that its wrong. I believe in the Bible and its condemnation of homosexuality. I take the Bible as a whole and do not believe it contradicts itself (at least the original text written in Greek in Hebrew). So I beleive that God's laws are being broken and I have a right to say that, and you have a God given right to ignore that and keep having sex with men and whomever else you can. I believe there are serious consequences for that type of behavior, and you probably do not.

Fine. But I would urge all christians to rephrase their statement. Please do not say: "homosexuality is wrong". Say: "homosexuality is wrong for people who want to / claim to believe in god" -- although John H might disagree with me on that one.

But that is an intra-religious dispute and not one I want to be involved in.

Originally posted by supersize77
Only time will prove one of us right and the other dead wrong, but the way I see I don't have much to lose in this wager and quite a bit to gain.

If that thought is what gets you through life: go for it.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-25-2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by el cid
I do not believe in god, or the bible. We are all animals, we have evolved to what we are today, and eventually the human race will cease to exist. You know, I'm pretty sure scientist and their "facts" can prove this. The bible contradicts itself hundreds of times, and is obviously a huge fairytale written by men who think they know what their talking about. Take a look around this world that we live in before you praise "god" for being so blessed, or are you blind to the other people not as lucky as you? Take a look at other places in the world, where children die everyday witout ever even hearing the word "Jesus", or "Christianity". Would people really have to suffer so much if their really was a God? If you say yes, then you have never truely suffered. The sad thing is, people like my parents think that by forcing me to go to church or face punishment is going to make me change my beliefs. They won't even listen to me when I questions the church. The same thing goes for every other Christian I have tried to have a conversation with. I always get the same, "you just have to have faith" speech, or something along those lines.

If we are all animals then why should we not act like animals? Or is that a justification for acting however you like? Science has still failed to show any transition fossils, evolution on the macro scale has not yet been proven. With the more recent developments, the phylogenic tree is showing that there are many more original sources of DNA than previously thought. Science is pointing to intelligent design. Why is there suffering in the world? God gave man the free will to do this to each other, simple as that. I have been to a third world country to help those people you speak of. They have even greater faith in God than I. I will answer your questions for that others will not.
Oh yeah, bump on show me the contradictions.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-25-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by phreak
And here's me thinking I still had a chance... What a cruel god you have. Just because I honestly say that I cannot believe in him/her for want of proof of existance, I automatically get sent to hell, without any consideration for the kind of life I lead! Seems a trifle unfair.

You take being excessive and uncritical in your devotion as a compliment?

So maybe now you can imagine what the life of non-heterosexuals must be like? And you've actually chosen your religion, we have not chosen our sexual preference.

One gets sent to Hell with complete consideration of how they have lived life. If you have sinned once, that is all it takes. It is not like if you have done more good to "cancel out" the bad then you get in. Who are you to compare doing good, compared to Mother Teresa I have come nowhere close. Compared to Hitler, I am a very good person. I can quote you the scripture about the cost of sin. The only way to get rid of sin is to accept Christ as Lord, then he becomes your Saviour.
I don't think it is possible to be excessive in my devotion. Uncritical... I try to understand you guys, but part of my beliefs is that all others are wrong. That goes under the whole One Truth doctrine.
Even if you were born to be homosexual, you can still change. All you need is the desire to.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-25-2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by CalcioFreak
For all of you who want to continue to base you lives around the anachronistic beliefs in the bible, perhaps you should delve in there and follow more of the things that god told you to do. On Sunday for instance you should probably smelt a bull with you neighbors so the smoke will rise to heaven, this makes god happy, and those of you with girl children don't forget, as soon as they turn thirteen god says it's a perfect time to sell them to whomever you see fit, he didn't discuss price however, this is apparently still up to you. I recommend getting at least a dozen sheep or one ox, ask for more than that if she's got good child bearin' hips.

Deep quotes. It is always funny when people take things out of context from the Old Testament. The Old Covenant. Jesus set the new covenant.

**Jcfreak_02** · 05-25-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by phreak
But yes, acting upon those (or any other) urges is a choice. Why does that give people the right to judge? As long as no laws are broken and everyone respects other's rights, what are we doing wrong? Do gays & bisexuals deserve to be discriminated against for doing what feels normal to them?

I am completely against hate crimes for any reason. My main problems with concerning homosexuals are the political lobby. They are increasingly forcing themselves into public school programs to tell school children that it is okay, that is for them to decide. I do not like the "life partner" idea. Marriage was, is and always shall be between a man and a woman.
If your going to do it, fine, don't tell us about it. I don't want to walk around the street and see two guys making out anymore than a striaght couple. I am getting off too much of a tangent. Keep your stuff in private just like straight people.

**phreak** · 05-25-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Jcfreak_02
If your going to do it, fine, don't tell us about it. I don't want to walk around the street and see two guys making out anymore than a striaght couple. I am getting off too much of a tangent. Keep your stuff in private just like straight people.

At least on this we agree. Especially your last line.

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