IF Question

[CottageChz]

I am a bit confused about a few different things regarding intermittent fasting. I saw a post Karla made last week where she told someone that she follows that a few times a week, especially when planning on eating out that day. I have sort of tried to start adopting IF principles and incorporating them into my lifestyle because, mostly, it just works better for me. It was music to my ears when I started reading how you DO NOT have to eat every 2-3 hours to "save muslce" or keep metabolism up. But I train first thing in the AM. I know most of what the experts preach is that timing of nutrients is not important. But what about training fasted (assuming only BCAAs are taken) and then not eating again for HOURS after a training session??? Again, assuming BCAAs are taken after training as well. I know the IF advocates say this is just fine but I really wanted some of the other experts take on it ??

A little background on me ~ I am 5'5" 130 lbs and ~23% BF. I am trying to lose fat while preserving the muscle that I have managed to build. Right now I am lifting 4x/week and running or doing HIIT 3x/week. I try to eat around 1500 cals/day while getting at least 130 grams of pro and 40-60 grams of fats. I've read the stickys on the macro calcs and I am pretty sure that is about where I should be at but I am not 100% confident about that either.

I have really been kicking my training into high gear and I get so nervous that I am wasting my time but not eating properly before and after.

Thank you so much for your input in advance!!

[KaraPhoto]

I get so nervous that I am wasting my time but not eating properly before and after.

Ok first thing is that I think people overthink everything waaaaayyyyyyy too much. The idea that what you're doing is "wasting time" is an all-or-nothing mentality - which is silly. What you're basically saying is that watching your calories and macros and working out is doing nothing because what ... you're not eating by the clock? Really?? For the vast majority of people out there, meal timing is nothing more than personal preference. Do you really think that all the work you do in the gym is just thrown away for lack of a post-workout snack? If you think about it rationally, you know that's not true.

Yes there is a period post workout where your body uses protein and carbs a little more efficiently and you can help feed the muscle and boost fat burning by having something that's balanced protein and carbs. But not doing so is not going to automatically negate any other effort you've put in. If you want to have a snack, then have one. If you feel it'll benefit you, great. If you don't want a snack, then don't have one. Neither one is magic.

As far as your cals and macros, using the calculations in Emma-Leigh's sticky, I get this:
Harris-Benedict Equation
BMR Calories 1317
Maintenance Calories 2042
Diet -25% 1531

Mifflin-St Jeor Equation
BMR Calories 1250
Maintenance Calories 1937
Diet -25% 1453

Katch-McArdle Equation
BMR Calories 1353
Maintenance Calories 2097
Diet -25% 1573

[CottageChz]

First, thank you for your response!
Secondly, I know timing is not as important as I once thought it was. I have finally been able to wrap my brain around that after years of thinking and practicing otherwise. But if you follow the IF protocol for early morning "fasted" training, I still get somewhat nervous not eating anything at all (even a protein shake) until 4 hours after my workout is done. I have begun to actually enjoy eating and training this way, but because I have really been stepping up my lifting routine, lifting much heavier and what not, I want to make sure I am doing everything else right so that I am not either making no progress, or (god forbid) making myself worse off.
And lastly, thank you for those macro calcs. A couple weeks ago I saw a post on here in which you gave a link to a spreadsheet you made and that is what I have been basing my cals and macros on!
I have actually been trying to lose 10 lbs (really I don't care about the #, I care more about how I look in the mirror and what my clothes feel like, but I am estimating it would be about 5-10 lbs where I would be happy) for 4 years now. And I have been getting no where. I think I my calories have been WAY too low. But it's still really hard for me to eat 1500...and when I say 'hard' I actually mean scary. If I haven't been losing eating less than that it's really hard for me to believe I will lose eating more. But I have read these boards for quiet sometime now and I am really trying so hard to follow the advice of all the people on here who seem to (and look like) they know what they are talking about~

[KaraPhoto]

But if you follow the IF protocol for early morning "fasted" training, I still get somewhat nervous not eating anything at all (even a protein shake) until 4 hours after my workout is done. I have begun to actually enjoy eating and training this way, but because I have really been stepping up my lifting routine, lifting much heavier and what not, I want to make sure I am doing everything else right so that I am not either making no progress, or (god forbid) making myself worse off.

I guess my point is ... don't get so obsessed with "doing it right". There is no absolute right out there - we're all different. When you boil it down to it's very basics - it's calories in vs. calories out and a proper balance of nutrients. Everything else is just details. If it works for you within the framework of eating the right amount of calories (not too many and not too few) and making sure you're getting the right balance of nutrients ... everything else is personal.

If IF works for you 90% of the time but you really feel the need for a snack either pre- or post- workout ... then have a snack. Adhering 100% to some protocol that makes you uncomfortable because you're afraid you're not Doin' it Rite! is counterproductive in the long run.

If you do GREAT on fasted cardio - go for it.
If you (like me) get dizzy and pukey if you don't eat something about 30 mins prior to a workout - eat!
If you try IF and find that your lifts are increasing and you feel fantastic - keep doing it.
Etc.

These are the details that YOU have to figure out for you. There is no right or wrong here and what you do isn't going to negate the exercise and healthy eating that you're doing.

[kfisherx]

Intermittent Fasting is very useful to even beginners because it can help them stay on target wrt overall calories and allows for more "normal" eating when going out. I am a HUGE proponent of it and practice it regularly.

With respect to pre and post workout meals. Well.... That is more of a fine tuning issue IMHO (I think that is what Kara is pointing out as well) BUT in your case it is much more important than it is in Kara's case because you are much closer to your ideal scale weight. Preserving muscle becomes more of a challenge as you dip closer and closer so worrying about the details is more important and as you get sick lean it is where it's all at.

I haven't done my homework on the reason that post workout is so important but I know that Alan recommends a pretty high number of my overall calories surround my workouts. He gives a guideline of 1.5 hours before and within an hour after (or it may be 30 min) In any case I do what he says more than do what I know is right so take that for what it is. (My humble appeal to authority) So my recommendation would be to at least do the post workout meal if you can manage to do that. Obviously if that screws with your ability to stay within your calories it is not a good return on investment as post workout meals is a detail whereas cals and macros are THE big picture....

Now all this said, I have to suggest that you may get even bigger bang for your buck (detail wise) by dropping all the cardio and preserving energy for heavier lifting. Make sure you are on a real program (not one you made up) and lifting as heavy as you can. THAT will go much further for you wrt the details IMHO.

Dug up Alan's article on this topic. Don't think it addresses your question but is a good read anyway..

http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objecti...t-fasting.html

[CottageChz]

Thank you both for your responses and input.

I am currently on a 8 wk program that I found in Muscle & Fitness Hers made by Kim Oddo. This will be my 4th wk. Once it's done I am going to start NROLF4W...already have the book. I would start it now but I hate not finishing things I have started and I really want to just follow the 8 week program through. But I already know I will probably get better results (for my goals) with NROL.

I am glad to hear you say you think IF is good for beginners. I am not a true "beginner" as I have been weight lifting, 'trying' to eat right, etc for years....BUT I am a beginner in the sense that I think I might finally be doing this the 'right' way for a change. I used to eat way too low cals, and do waaayyy too much cardio. But since I started IF a couple weeks ago, it has really really helped me stay better on track with my diet. I have never liked eating many small meals all day long. This just works better for me AND I am finding I have more energy at the gym, which I never would have imagined before. And, like you said in that post last week, it REALLY helps me when I have a day or night where I am going out with friends, fam, my BF, etc, when I can't follow my typical diet. I love that part!! I don't stress about eating out or going to a party NEARLY as much as I used to. Not that I feel I can go crazy now, I just don't have to feel guilty or worry about going over my daily cals.

And thank you, Karla, for the link to Alan's article...I am defintely going to check it out!!

[birdiefu]

Do what works best for you! I will say that when cutting, I did best with a tiny bit pre-WO (I feel awful with more than just a couple bites at least an hour prior) and afterwards had a PWO shake and breakfast (~400 cals). Then for the rest of the day I was fine and happy not to eat until many hours later. Usually my "lunch" would be quite late in the day, only about 2 hours before "dinner", which was then shortly (30 min-1 hour) before "desert/last snack of the day". So, in effect, it was like splitting up IF to a bit of food in the AM, to the bulk of my food in the PM.

[CottageChz]

Do what works best for you! I will say that when cutting, I did best with a tiny bit pre-WO (I feel awful with more than just a couple bites at least an hour prior) and afterwards had a PWO shake and breakfast (~400 cals). Then for the rest of the day I was fine and happy not to eat until many hours later. Usually my "lunch" would be quite late in the day, only about 2 hours before "dinner", which was then shortly (30 min-1 hour) before "desert/last snack of the day". So, in effect, it was like splitting up IF to a bit of food in the AM, to the bulk of my food in the PM.

I never used to be able to workout on an empty stomach...it was awful. It made me hate working out when I normally love it. But after reading a lot about IF I decided to try it again and was hoping my body would adjust to that change. Well, adjust it did and now my workouts on an empty stomach are amazing. It also works better for me because my pre workout supp is supposed to be taken on an empty tummy. So I guess I am just going to stick with this schedule for a bit and reevaluate in a month or so. If I am not making any progress I'll make some changes. Thanks for your input!!