Gaining muscle without caloric surplus

[DanX47]

I have been bulking for about a month now. My start weight was 175 and I finished with 185. My foods were a mix of clean and dirty. I am 6ft. I notice an increase in body fat. Right now I am trying to cut a little before bulking again. I am still lifting so my question is, with 1,500 to 2,000 calories a day, can I still gain muscle if I get enough protein 1g/1lb if not on a caloric surplus?
I'm also doing HIIT to get get best body fat loss results.

[MajorTwang]

I am still lifting so my question is, with 1,500 to 2,000 calories a day, can I still gain muscle if I get enough protein 1g/1lb if not on a caloric surplus?

As a general principle - no.

Muscle grows best in an environment of calorie surplus, with regular pulses of insulin driving carbs & amino acids into the muscle cells. This same enviroment promotes fat storage.

When you restrict calories enough to burn fat, your body deals with that stress first, and it stops putting down new muscle. Protein becomes a prime candidate for making up the shortfall in glucose, instead of pumping it into muscle tissue that - from a survival point of view - is fairly useless.

On the simplest level, your metabolism can either be anabolic or catabolic. It can't be both at once. Trainers just starting out, returning to training after a layoff or those just starting a course of steroids can manage it for a short while, but otherwise, you're chasing the end of a rainbow.

This is why bodybuilders cycle between bulking & cutting. Two steps forward, one step back.

[Tommy W.]

I have been bulking for about a month now. My start weight was 175 and I finished with 185. My foods were a mix of clean and dirty. I am 6ft. I notice an increase in body fat. Right now I am trying to cut a little before bulking again. I am still lifting so my question is, with 1,500 to 2,000 calories a day, can I still gain muscle if I get enough protein 1g/1lb if not on a caloric surplus?
I'm also doing HIIT to get get best body fat loss results.

Throwing out arbitrary calorie amounts is useless. You must figure your true maintenance before you really know if you're in a cal surplus or defecit or even. Your maintenance changes every day according to your activities so maintenance is a moving target and you have to really work to figure it all out.

If you were gaining fat just figure how many cals you were taking in and subtract 3,500 cals for each pound of fat you gained over how long it took to gain it. That's pretty close to your maintenance.

[DanX47]

As a general principle - no.

Muscle grows best in an environment of calorie surplus, with regular pulses of insulin driving carbs & amino acids into the muscle cells. This same enviroment promotes fat storage.

When you restrict calories enough to burn fat, your body deals with that stress first, and it stops putting down new muscle. Protein becomes a prime candidate for making up the shortfall in glucose, instead of pumping it into muscle tissue that - from a survival point of view - is fairly useless.

On the simplest level, your metabolism can either be anabolic or catabolic. It can't be both at once. Trainers just starting out, returning to training after a layoff or those just starting a course of steroids can manage it for a short while, but otherwise, you're chasing the end of a rainbow.

This is why bodybuilders cycle between bulking & cutting. Two steps forward, one step back.

So then what are the advantages of working out/cutting at the same time?

[hrdgain3r89]

Throwing out arbitrary calorie amounts is useless. You must figure your true maintenance before you really know if you're in a cal surplus or defecit or even. Your maintenance changes every day according to your activities so maintenance is a moving target and you have to really work to figure it all out.

If you were gaining fat just figure how many cals you were taking in and subtract 3,500 cals for each pound of fat you gained over how long it took to gain it. That's pretty close to your maintenance.

^^ this.

what are the benefits of working out and cutting at the same time? well for one lifting weights helps in the fat loss process BETTER than drawn out bouts of cardio anydays that much is proven. as for muscle lifting while cutting TO AN EXTENT will help you keep and tone your LBM to achieve a more ripped physique but to build mass your body pretty much must be in a caloric surplus.

[SEX]

As a general principle - no.

Muscle grows best in an environment of calorie surplus, with regular pulses of insulin driving carbs & amino acids into the muscle cells. This same enviroment promotes fat storage.

When you restrict calories enough to burn fat, your body deals with that stress first, and it stops putting down new muscle. Protein becomes a prime candidate for making up the shortfall in glucose, instead of pumping it into muscle tissue that - from a survival point of view - is fairly useless.

On the simplest level, your metabolism can either be anabolic or catabolic. It can't be both at once. Trainers just starting out, returning to training after a layoff or those just starting a course of steroids can manage it for a short while, but otherwise, you're chasing the end of a rainbow.

This is why bodybuilders cycle between bulking & cutting. Two steps forward, one step back.

dat dere great post

[AnabolicFyre]

It's possible to put on lean muscle while eating at maintenance but your diet would have to be 100% on point, you'd have to eat the highest quality foods in order to be hypernutrient while almost being hypocaloric.(Same goes for cutting)

[MajorTwang]

So then what are the advantages of working out/cutting at the same time?

Do I really need to answer this ?

[DanX47]

Do I really need to answer this ?

Hrdgain pretty much said it. Anything to add?

[duuuwork]

cant build a house with no bricks......i was once told that and it made alot of sense.

[seanb1979]

cant build a house with no bricks......i was once told that and it made alot of sense.

Can't use wood/drywall/siding/etc?

[Nick Helm]

This question is actually much more involved than most would think. In short, yes, you can build muscle while at the same time burning fat. In order to understand this though, you must have a deeper understanding of physiology. Building muscle and burning fat are both related to exercise, but not in the same way, and the answer is not as simple as punching numbers into a calculator. In order to build muscle, you need enough protein to rebuild damaged muscle. In order to burn fat, you need to induce lipolysis. In both cases, you need to provide your body with a stimulus. If no stimulus is provided, your body will not adapt. Resistance training is the stimulus used for gaining muscle, and cardiovascular exercise is the stimulus used for losing fat. Both of these stimuli will influence muscle and fat, but have a primary purpose. If you lift hard and get enough amino acids to the site to repair damaged muscle, your muscle will grow. Lifting weights also burns calories, but shouldn't be used as a replacement for cardiovascular exercise for the purpose of burning fat. During your cardio session, your body makes some adjustments such as the release of epinephrine and hormone sensitive lipase. These cause a release of fat from adipocytes and cause vasoconstriction to occur, specifically veno constriction. This causes blood to rush into your heart more quickly, and increases your stroke volume, allowing cardiac output to increase. The blood is being shuttled away from non-working muscles and your GI tract, and shuttled into the working muscles and your spinal cord for reflexive movement. Adenosine, inorganic phosphate, hydrogen ions and potassium cause dilation of the blood vessels in the working muscle, allowing more blood to come to that area. Anyway, the effect of cardio on your fat stores is much greater than weight training, and weight training uses much more carbohydrates that cardio does. So, in summary, it is possible for your muscles to have enough nutrients to grow, and your fat cells not enough nutrients to grow, although, if you eat much much more, your muscles will be able to grow faster. Watch your macros. Eat enough protein. Cut sugar out. Don't eat carbs late in the day. Make sure to have protein before and after sleep. You will be pleased with the results as long as you have a solid plan and stick to it.

I personally always get stronger while cutting, just not nearly as fast as when I eat like a horse and do no cardio.

[DanX47]

This question is actually much more involved than most would think. In short, yes, you can build muscle while at the same time burning fat. In order to understand this though, you must have a deeper understanding of physiology. Building muscle and burning fat are both related to exercise, but not in the same way, and the answer is not as simple as punching numbers into a calculator. In order to build muscle, you need enough protein to rebuild damaged muscle. In order to burn fat, you need to induce lipolysis. In both cases, you need to provide your body with a stimulus. If no stimulus is provided, your body will not adapt. Resistance training is the stimulus used for gaining muscle, and cardiovascular exercise is the stimulus used for losing fat. Both of these stimuli will influence muscle and fat, but have a primary purpose. If you lift hard and get enough amino acids to the site to repair damaged muscle, your muscle will grow. Lifting weights also burns calories, but shouldn't be used as a replacement for cardiovascular exercise for the purpose of burning fat. During your cardio session, your body makes some adjustments such as the release of epinephrine and hormone sensitive lipase. These cause a release of fat from adipocytes and cause vasoconstriction to occur, specifically veno constriction. This causes blood to rush into your heart more quickly, and increases your stroke volume, allowing cardiac output to increase. The blood is being shuttled away from non-working muscles and your GI tract, and shuttled into the working muscles and your spinal cord for reflexive movement. Adenosine, inorganic phosphate, hydrogen ions and potassium cause dilation of the blood vessels in the working muscle, allowing more blood to come to that area. Anyway, the effect of cardio on your fat stores is much greater than weight training, and weight training uses much more carbohydrates that cardio does. So, in summary, it is possible for your muscles to have enough nutrients to grow, and your fat cells not enough nutrients to grow, although, if you eat much much more, your muscles will be able to grow faster. Watch your macros. Eat enough protein. Cut sugar out. Don't eat carbs late in the day. Make sure to have protein before and after sleep. You will be pleased with the results as long as you have a solid plan and stick to it.

I personally always get stronger while cutting, just not nearly as fast as when I eat like a horse and do no cardio.

Thanks! Answer I was looking for!

[determined4000]

1.weight training uses much more carbohydrates that cardio does.
2. Cut sugar out.
3. Don't eat carbs late in the day. Make sure to have protein before and after sleep.

1. Not necessaily. WHy do you think runners, cyclists, swimmers eat so many carbs?
2. Y? 80 calories of fruit is less thrmognic than 80 calories of PB
3. Not needed. Meal timing means nothing

[Nick Helm]

1. Not necessaily. WHy do you think runners, cyclists, swimmers eat so many carbs?
2. Y? 80 calories of fruit is less thrmognic than 80 calories of PB
3. Not needed. Meal timing means nothing

I'm not sure where you are getting your information.
To address your number one: High intensity exercise uses ATP that comes from stored ATP, ATP created via ADP and inorganic phospate donated by creatine phosphate, and from glycolysis which uses glucose. Lower intensity exercise such as jogging, cycling, eliptical... use much lower amounts of energy per unit of time, but when prolonged use a greater total amount of energy. This ATP comes from beta oxidation.

2. 80 cal from fruit is NOT less thermogenic than 80 cal from peanut butter. Your body will spend about 10% of the calories from carbohydrates to digest and absorb them, and about 3% from fat. Peanut butter is high in fat. Fruits are not.

3. If you eat most of your carbohydrates early in the day, you will burn more of them than if you eat them later, and then go to bed. When you sleep with carbs in your stomach, more of them will be stored as fat than if you ate them earlier in the day. You will notice that if you eat more carbs early in the day, that when it is time for bed, you will be more hungary. This is because your blood glucose levels will be slightly lower, which will signal hunger.

[determined4000]

I'm not sure where you are getting your information.
To address your number one: High intensity exercise uses ATP that comes from stored ATP, ATP created via ADP and inorganic phospate donated by creatine phosphate, and from glycolysis which uses glucose. Lower intensity exercise such as jogging, cycling, eliptical... use much lower amounts of energy per unit of time, but when prolonged use a greater total amount of energy. This ATP comes from beta oxidation.

2. 80 cal from fruit is NOT less thermogenic than 80 cal from peanut butter. Your body will spend about 10% of the calories from carbohydrates to digest and absorb them, and about 3% from fat. Peanut butter is high in fat. Fruits are not.

3. If you eat most of your carbohydrates early in the day, you will burn more of them than if you eat them later, and then go to bed. When you sleep with carbs in your stomach, more of them will be stored as fat than if you ate them earlier in the day. You will notice that if you eat more carbs early in the day, that when it is time for bed, you will be more hungary. This is because your blood glucose levels will be slightly lower, which will signal hunger.

regarding #2
I know fruit is more thermogenic-->questioning your saying to cut all sugar
3. If I eat a larger portion of my carbs at night, to follow your logic, I am burning mor fat during the day

[Nick Helm]

regarding #2
I know fruit is more thermogenic-->questioning your saying to cut all sugar
3. If I eat a larger portion of my carbs at night, to follow your logic, I am burning mor fat during the day

cutting sugar is good to moderate insulin response. Fructose is better than glucose for this purpose, and sucrose (table sugar) falls right in the middle, as it is a molecule of each bonded together. Mono and disaccharides will influence insulin more than oligosaccharides, so I am just recommending that your carbs be complex.

Your next part, yes, you will be burning more fat during the day, but you will start your day with more of it to burn.

[Mr. Aries]

possible, but not the most efficient way of packing on lbm.

[determined4000]

Your next part, yes, you will be burning more fat during the day, but you will start your day with more of it to burn.

exactly
which is why meal timing means nada
everything evens out

[Ncsketch]

exactly
which is why meal timing means nada
everything evens out

.

[Ncsketch]

When you restrict calories enough to burn fat, your body deals with that stress first, and it stops putting down new muscle. Protein becomes a prime candidate for making up the shortfall in glucose, instead of pumping it into muscle tissue that - from a survival point of view - is fairly useless.

Protein does NOT become the prime candidate "for making up the shortfall in glucose."

Grade A in broscience.

[xbayrockx]

3. If you eat most of your carbohydrates early in the day, you will burn more of them than if you eat them later, and then go to bed. When you sleep with carbs in your stomach, more of them will be stored as fat than if you ate them earlier in the day. You will notice that if you eat more carbs early in the day, that when it is time for bed, you will be more hungary. This is because your blood glucose levels will be slightly lower, which will signal hunger.

What you are saying appears to be true, however you didn't state how it relates to not eating carbs later in the day. It has no implications for overall fat loss as already pointed out.

[hrdgain3r89]

I'm not sure where you are getting your information.
To address your number one: High intensity exercise uses ATP that comes from stored ATP, ATP created via ADP and inorganic phospate donated by creatine phosphate, and from glycolysis which uses glucose. Lower intensity exercise such as jogging, cycling, eliptical... use much lower amounts of energy per unit of time, but when prolonged use a greater total amount of energy. This ATP comes from beta oxidation.

2. 80 cal from fruit is NOT less thermogenic than 80 cal from peanut butter. Your body will spend about 10% of the calories from carbohydrates to digest and absorb them, and about 3% from fat. Peanut butter is high in fat. Fruits are not.

3. If you eat most of your carbohydrates early in the day, you will burn more of them than if you eat them later, and then go to bed. When you sleep with carbs in your stomach, more of them will be stored as fat than if you ate them earlier in the day. You will notice that if you eat more carbs early in the day, that when it is time for bed, you will be more hungary. This is because your blood glucose levels will be slightly lower, which will signal hunger.

Hope this settles a few things....

1. Lifting weights can easily move us into the high intensity exercise zone above the 75 percent effort required to get some afterburn, but it's only for short bursts. This is not consistent, steady-state effort and does not generally burn as much energy as a good run on the treadmill, cycle or row machine at moderate pace. For example, here are the energy expenditure calculations for weights versus cardio for one hour of exercise from the NAT Nutritional Analysis Tools web site. I've based this on a 150 pound person (just under 70 kilograms).

-Running at 8 minutes a mile pace (5 min/km) -- burn 852 calories (kilocalories)
-Weight lifting, vigorous, free weights or machines -- burn 409 calories (kilocalories)
I’ve tried to line these activities up for effort so that the comparison is worthwhile. Whenever I check these numbers it astounds me because I run and I lift weights, and sometimes I feel much fresher after a run than going for it in the gym with sub-10 RM (repetition maximum) and three sets of ten exercises. Nevertheless, the numbers always come out the same with any reputable energy calculator. Sustained aerobics always spends about twice the energy of weight training in a comparable comparison. You can see from this why cardio sessions are important for fat loss.


2. Consuming any sugar–including fructose–after exercising has been shown to dramatically decrease the fat-burning effect of human growth hormone that is associated with intense physical activity. But it still passes through the liver much quicker than peanut butter would due to its fat content, although i think its more dependent on HOW MUCH of what you consumed. If I ate 4 apples my thermic response would be greater than if i ate just a tablespoon of PB....

3. Its not about being more hungry at night and if that WAS the case then it would make even MORE sense to save some carbs for later in the day to prevent catabolism and hunger pains. I also think its dependent on whether your bulking/cutting as well.

[Nick Helm]

What you are saying appears to be true, however you didn't state how it relates to not eating carbs later in the day. It has no implications for overall fat loss as already pointed out.

Fat loss is going to be more pronounced if you are eating complex carbs, and eating them earlier in the day. I'm not sure what time of day you workout, but your metabolism will be elevated for a few hours after a cardio session. Since you will have limited availability of carbs in your blood, your body will begin to breakdown glycogen in your liver to get glucose for any activity that you may be doing. Also, since your insulin levels will be low, hormone sensitive lipase (HSL) will signal fat to be released (lipolysis) from to be used for the energy deficit. This will help you to get rid of fat more quickly as opposed to eating your carbs later in the day. If you do eat your carbs later in the day, not only will you not be losing as much fat via the system explained above, but your energy levels early in the day and while you are at the gym will be suffering, and you will not burn as many calories in total, during the day.