What's 'wrong' with American Weightlifting?

[CHS55]

Is it the workout regiments? The lack of advertisement for the sport? The lack of access to 'medicine'? I'm just curious... The US isn't too far behind in other sports compared to the rest of the world, but in weightlifting, I can't recall the last time a male lifter won a gold medal at the olympics. So what's the deal?

[3rd pull]

its all of the juvenile bickering going on in the coaching circles.

[crackyflipside]

1. We need to max out a lot more than we think. Be it 1rm or 5rm, Olympic lifts or the squats.
2. Build confidence in competition by attempting new maximums in training more frequently.
3. We need to learn how to cut weight.
4. Incentive program for winning medals at international competition.
5. Soviet style qualification system to replace qualifying totals for larger state and national competition. Incentives for reaching a higher qualification: reduced membership costs, discounts for USAW merchandise, gift packages like supplements and gift cards to restaurants.
6. Get top 3 in every weight class to compete in a televised weightlifting competition, all you would need to air is the top attempts and any back and forth fights for the gold.


I think these would just be steps in the right direction, not really a 'fix'.

[glennpendlay]

1. We need to max out a lot more than we think. Be it 1rm or 5rm, Olympic lifts or the squats.

Even when many of the lifters who beat us do almost NO maxing out in training, and base their squats off their clean and jerks instead of their best squat? Its hard for me to believe that this is the answer, when the lifters who beat us use such a wide variety of training plans...

2. Build confidence in competition by attempting new maximums in training more frequently.

See response above...


3. We need to learn how to cut weight.

I attend many international meets. I have not noticed any real difference in how we cut weight vs how the rest of the world does it. I actually think that a few US coaches are better at this than most of the other coaches in the world

4. Incentive program for winning medals at international competition.

I question this, just because the lifters I coach, and I coach 3 out of the top 8 or the top 12 guys in the country (which number you use depends on how you rank them) are, IMO, training and pushing themselves as hard as possible. I do not think that if there was a 1 million dollar payday available for an Olympic medal that they could push any harder.

5. Soviet style qualification system to replace qualifying totals for larger state and national competition. Incentives for reaching a higher qualification: reduced membership costs, discounts for USAW merchandise, gift packages like supplements and gift cards to restaurants.

Again, refer to the answer above. I just am not seeing our top guys being magically able to lift more weight because their membership is going to be discounted by $10 or because they get a new warmup suit. In fact, I think that to say this is almost a put down to our guys.

6. Get top 3 in every weight class to compete in a televised weightlifting competition, all you would need to air is the top attempts and any back and forth fights for the gold.

I agree, publicity would help.


I think these would just be steps in the right direction, not really a 'fix'.

nnn

[GoJu]

nnn

I'm not sure I agree with your fist rebuttal, I would agree that followers of the russian system would base their squats off their clean&jerk (russia obviously, but also belarus, kazahkstan?, korea) but I doubt the chinese (who've been beating the other guys in the weightclasses up to 85kg) or any of the other countries training as the bulgarians or those who don't follow strict periodization would; I think basing squats off clean&jerk is folly, even the former Polish coach who is now the US coach says the lifters technique is fine its just that their weak compared to their international competition; strength is often time underrated in what is supposed to be a strength sport is IMO one of the bigger problems with USA weightlifting's past training philosophies

[crackyflipside]

Glenn, I may be biased because I had a really bad experience with a coach and his system that made my lifts crap. He basically had the mentality that competitions are the only times to try max weights.

The weight cutting issue is me thinking some of our lifters might be lifting a class too heavy.

The qualification thing is just an idea to help create goals for weightlifters that all they see is the top of the Olympic champions and how far they are from reaching it.

[dannyautrey]

As far as paydays for achievements, it's not necessarily for those that are already doing it. A big reward might bring some genetic freak out of the woodwork, or make the sport more appealing for people, creating a larger pool of lifters to choose from.

America has a great system for the more popular sports like football and basketball. Kids are taught and involved in the sports from a young age, then they are put on school funded teams, then scholarship funded programs in college, and the of course the draft process for the pros. No one can argue that USA doesn't have the best football players in the world, and football is our most popular sport. If weightlifting did something similar, then we would produce a lot of top quality lifters. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen. There's not much appeal for the sport.

[glennpendlay]

I'm not sure I agree with your fist rebuttal, I would agree that followers of the russian system would base their squats off their clean&jerk (russia obviously, but also belarus, kazahkstan?, korea) but I doubt the chinese (who've been beating the other guys in the weightclasses up to 85kg) or any of the other countries training as the bulgarians or those who don't follow strict periodization would; I think basing squats off clean&jerk is folly, even the former Polish coach who is now the US coach says the lifters technique is fine its just that their weak compared to their international competition; strength is often time underrated in what is supposed to be a strength sport is IMO one of the bigger problems with USA weightlifting's past training philosophies

Of course I am not ADVOCATING the approach of basing squats off of clean and jerk... I dont believe in it myself.

As far as the what Zygmunt thinks, wow, could have fooled me. He has decreased the squatting, and is killing everyone with little technique drills to fix their technique... He coached Caleb for a week, and though he said Caleb has maybe the best technique in the USA, had him doing various drills all week to "fix" a couple of things he saw as flaws, only had him squat twice, and sent him home with the direction of focusing on perfecting his lifts before anything else!!!

This constant chorus of "USA doesnt care about strength, foriegn coaches understand that strength is most important thing" is getting very old.

[glennpendlay]

Glenn, I may be biased because I had a really bad experience with a coach and his system that made my lifts crap. He basically had the mentality that competitions are the only times to try max weights.

The weight cutting issue is me thinking some of our lifters might be lifting a class too heavy.

The qualification thing is just an idea to help create goals for weightlifters that all they see is the top of the Olympic champions and how far they are from reaching it.

You wont find that type of thing with all that many coaches. Most in the US will generally be more towards the bias of lifting heavy when you are able, but, this is a free country and you will find a wide range of practices... But, never maxing isnt representative of US programs.

As far as the weight thing, I agree. we tend to be fatter than foriegn lifters. I tend to think that some of this is drugs, some of this is the fact that our lifters are largely "ameteure" vs the full-time pros of other countries, and some of it is just the typical crap american diet.

I am not sure about the goals thing. Maybe this is an opinion thing and I just disagree.

[glennpendlay]

I agree with this.

As far as paydays for achievements, it's not necessarily for those that are already doing it. A big reward might bring some genetic freak out of the woodwork, or make the sport more appealing for people, creating a larger pool of lifters to choose from.

America has a great system for the more popular sports like football and basketball. Kids are taught and involved in the sports from a young age, then they are put on school funded teams, then scholarship funded programs in college, and the of course the draft process for the pros. No one can argue that USA doesn't have the best football players in the world, and football is our most popular sport. If weightlifting did something similar, then we would produce a lot of top quality lifters. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen. There's not much appeal for the sport.

[GqArtguy]

Of course I am not ADVOCATING the approach of basing squats off of clean and jerk... I dont believe in it myself.

As far as the what Zygmunt thinks, wow, could have fooled me. He has decreased the squatting, and is killing everyone with little technique drills to fix their technique... He coached Caleb for a week, and though he said Caleb has maybe the best technique in the USA, had him doing various drills all week to "fix" a couple of things he saw as flaws, only had him squat twice, and sent him home with the direction of focusing on perfecting his lifts before anything else!!!

This constant chorus of "USA doesnt care about strength, foriegn coaches understand that strength is most important thing" is getting very old.

Glenn, what did Zygmunt use to 'fix' Caleb's technique and what did he see as a flaw(s)?

[eyeoftheworld]

As far as the what Zygmunt thinks, wow, could have fooled me. He has decreased the squatting, and is killing everyone with little technique drills to fix their technique... He coached Caleb for a week, and though he said Caleb has maybe the best technique in the USA, had him doing various drills all week to "fix" a couple of things he saw as flaws

Caleb Ward, from what little I have seen, seems to have excellent posture and positioning. I am not near to your or that other coach's experience but what exactly did Zygmunt see as wrong?

[slowman41]

and some of it is just the typical crap american diet.

I wonder if it really is the difference between the american carb heavy diet, and european which seems to be less carb-heavy and more fats + proteins.

Greg Everett preaches that weightlifters don't need carbs other than what you'd get from fruits & veggies, maybe he's on the right track?

[Jerking_Off]

I wonder if it really is the difference between the american carb heavy diet, and european which seems to be less carb-heavy and more fats + proteins.

Greg Everett preaches that weightlifters don't need carbs other than what you'd get from fruits & veggies, maybe he's on the right track?

Funny that, after 4 years of Oly lifting I have pretty much cut out all carbs from my diet, even though I am adding bodyweight, I feel much much better, and my weight is much more stable rather than than the huge fluctuations from carb induced bloat. Anywho...

My take on American lifting is that it's very similar to Australia. Too many people are afraid to train when they are fatigued. There is this bizarre mentality that the athlete must be recovered at all times for each session.

The other big thing is that America, like Australia, seem to completely neglect obsessive recovery work. Daily massage, foam rolling and sauna were pivotal to the Bulgarian programs and part of the reason they could train as they did.

Lastly... too many idiots on the internet talking crap, and not enough people like Pat Mendes moving hundreds of kilos.

[eyeoftheworld]

I wonder if it really is the difference between the american carb heavy diet, and european which seems to be less carb-heavy and more fats + proteins.

Greg Everett preaches that weightlifters don't need carbs other than what you'd get from fruits & veggies, maybe he's on the right track?

He is.

Humans subsisted on fibre, proteins and fats along with vitamins and trace minerals they contained for a long time. You now need to supplement with various digestive enzymes, vitamins and mineral, probiotics and other flora et al just to get the same things.

Eat things that are alive as much as possible, things that reduce acidity like greens and omega 3s. You don't really need grains or dairy; I personally eat them out of convenience and because I like dairy for taste. You are better served, for example, eating dark, leafy greens for calcium. Milk and yogurt also contain piss-poor amounts of L.casei and other probiotics.

[eyeoftheworld]

Funny that, after 4 years of Oly lifting I have pretty much cut out all carbs from my diet, even though I am adding bodyweight, I feel much much better, and my weight is much more stable rather than than the huge fluctuations from carb induced bloat. Anywho...

My take on American lifting is that it's very similar to Australia. Too many people are afraid to train when they are fatigued. There is this bizarre mentality that the athlete must be recovered at all times for each session.

The other big thing is that America, like Australia, seem to completely neglect obsessive recovery work. Daily massage, foam rolling and sauna were pivotal to the Bulgarian programs and part of the reason they could train as they did.

Lastly... too many idiots on the internet talking crap, and not enough people like Pat Mendes moving hundreds of kilos.

I agree that you will never be totally recovered, but, you should follow the ebb and flow of your body. Not every day should be very heavy, just most. I suppose that's why there are 'daily maximums' and also planned periods of rest and varying workload and intensity in classical periodization.

[powmongo]

I'm not sure I agree with your fist rebuttal, I would agree that followers of the russian system would base their squats off their clean&jerk (russia obviously, but also belarus, kazahkstan?, korea) but I doubt the chinese (who've been beating the other guys in the weightclasses up to 85kg) or any of the other countries training as the bulgarians or those who don't follow strict periodization would; I think basing squats off clean&jerk is folly, even the former Polish coach who is now the US coach says the lifters technique is fine its just that their weak compared to their international competition; strength is often time underrated in what is supposed to be a strength sport is IMO one of the bigger problems with USA weightlifting's past training philosophies

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Zygmunt thinks our lifters technique is good. Read Strength Plus magazine where some of his statements to lifters at the OTC are given. Besides thinking some are weak he does think lack of technique by U.S. lifters is an important issue. He is re-writing the USAW coaching manuels because of this.

[glennpendlay]

Glenn, what did Zygmunt use to 'fix' Caleb's technique and what did he see as a flaw(s)?

One of the things was that he was lacking constant acceleration as the bar moved up his thigh. He thought Caleb relied too much on a huge second pull and not enough on bar speed built steadily from the floor. One of the "fixes" for this that he recommended was to do some snatch exercises without straps and without a hook grip. No hook means that your grip will not withstand a monster second pull, and it will make you more apt to try for steady acceleration of the bar throughout the lift. I have to say that so far I like the results of his recomendations.

[Korr]

Glenn, I'm curious since you were the coach of the resent Pan AM games. Why did the American team get their ass kicked so badly? Hell third world countries beat us. Is it the lifters themselves, training, coaching, or other? I'd like to get your opinion on this.

[glennpendlay]

I wonder if it really is the difference between the american carb heavy diet, and european which seems to be less carb-heavy and more fats + proteins.

Greg Everett preaches that weightlifters don't need carbs other than what you'd get from fruits & veggies, maybe he's on the right track?

Everett kind of follows the diet guidelines of Rob Wolf and the Paleo crowd, at least as far as I know. I tend to agree with this myself. As far back as 2001-2002 I recomended in an interview for an online magazine that lifters eat a diet based on meat and vegatables, with a higher fat content than carb content. I also recomended that carb rich foods be added only for lifters who had trouble maintaining or gaining bodyweight. Based on my observations of the diet habits of many international lifters who did quite well since then, I feel I was on the right track with that. Eat your meat and vegetables, and go easy on your breads.

[glennpendlay]

Glenn, I'm curious since you were the coach of the resent Pan AM games. Why did the American team get their ass kicked so badly? Hell third world countries beat us. Is it the lifters themselves, training, coaching, or other? I'd like to get your opinion on this.

In general, in a country like Colombia, they are able to recruit more talented kids to the sport than we can. This is because they have less options.

In general, in Colombia, becoming a good weightlifter leads to a step up in life, more money, more opportunity, more comfort. In the United States, becoming a lifter requires sacrifices... less income, less opportunity.

In general, their lifters get way more governmental support than ours do.

I think there might be a fairly simple test to determine a countries ability to do well in a sport like weightlifting. As indoor air conditioning becomes more common, success becomes harder to achieve.

[Tagio]

one thing we're missing is smart recruiting. didn't john broz bring both rob adell and pat mendes into the sport by attending a high school powerclean meet and recruiting the guys who won? football gets most of the weightlifting talent in this country, but apparently you can steal it right back with a little determination.

[glennpendlay]

The other big thing is that America, like Australia, seem to completely neglect obsessive recovery work. Daily massage, foam rolling and sauna were pivotal to the Bulgarian programs and part of the reason they could train as they did.

In reality, Abajiev was very much against massage and sauna and even things like hot showers or contrast showers. He believed that the body must be made to adapt without help.

[eyeoftheworld]

In reality, Abajiev was very much against massage and sauna and even things like hot showers or contrast showers. He believed that the body must be made to adapt without help.

The more I learn about him, the crazier Ivan Abajiev sounds. It's the opposite of how most people look more human. By God, though, I can see how he got results. He seems like one of those guys who will drag them out of you, kicking and screaming. It would be reasonable to say some may have been frightened of him, I think.

[crackyflipside]

In reality, Abajiev was very much against massage and sauna and even things like hot showers or contrast showers. He believed that the body must be made to adapt without help.

Even the soviet training manual mentions something like this with regards to how to dose restorative measures. Use minimal recovery on the days that have the largest loading and use maximum recovery on the days there is little loading. As for why it says, "the use... before training does not block it's influence on the organism [the body] and the training gives the planned effect." How it sounds in my head is to use all the recovery methods you possibly can on 'rest' days or light days as there is little training stimulus. On the really hard days use little so training stimulus has most effect on the body.

Edit: even more clarification. You want your body to adapt to the training as naturally as you can without injuries happening. When there is planned recovery or light days, you want to have as much recovery as possible and employ every method you can imagine to have maximal recovery. If you used maximum recovery every day your body would not go through the same stress that heavy days have, your body could adapt to the recovery and you would not receive the same benefit.

[glennpendlay]

Even the soviet training manual mentions something like this with regards to how to dose restorative measures. Use minimal recovery on the days that have the largest loading and use maximum recovery on the days there is little loading. As for why it says, "the use... before training does not block it's influence on the organism [the body] and the training gives the planned effect."

How it sounds in my head is to use all the recovery methods you possibly can on 'rest' days or light days as there is little training stimulus. On the really hard days use little so training stimulus has most effect on the body.

Thats still a little different than how Ivan did it. He allowed a sauna about once a month, and frowned upon anything else. Even with a lifter who was so beat down as to be quite literally reduced to crawling on hands and knees to the shower to try to get some relief was stopped and counceled by Ivan on the evils of interrupting the natural processes in the muscle.

[raffiki]

I wonder if it really is the difference between the american carb heavy diet, and european which seems to be less carb-heavy and more fats + proteins.

Greg Everett preaches that weightlifters don't need carbs other than what you'd get from fruits & veggies, maybe he's on the right track?

As eyeoftheworld kinda touched on, there is far more to a healthy diet than just macro-nutrients. Optimizing digestion is critical. I think the amount carbs to fat isn't a big deal for the majority of people. A person who gets their carbs from fruits and veggies will be much healthy than the person who eats a lot of bread. People don't realize that most grains are actually difficult to digest.

Traditional foods that are natural fermented can do great things for your digestive system. Sauerkraut is a great example of a food gone wrong. It was originally made by letting the cabbage ferment in a salt water solution. This allowed beneficial bacteria and enzymes increase and aid your digestive system. Now the cabbage is boiled and dumped into vinegar, so that everything is absolutely dead. Many "poor" countries still use food preservation methods like fermentation and are healthier for it.

[raffiki]

Even the soviet training manual mentions something like this with regards to how to dose restorative measures. Use minimal recovery on the days that have the largest loading and use maximum recovery on the days there is little loading. As for why it says, "the use... before training does not block it's influence on the organism [the body] and the training gives the planned effect." How it sounds in my head is to use all the recovery methods you possibly can on 'rest' days or light days as there is little training stimulus. On the really hard days use little so training stimulus has most effect on the body.

Edit: even more clarification. You want your body to adapt to the training as naturally as you can without injuries happening. When there is planned recovery or light days, you want to have as much recovery as possible and employ every method you can imagine to have maximal recovery. If you used maximum recovery every day your body would not go through the same stress that heavy days have, your body could adapt to the recovery and you would not receive the same benefit.

Thats still a little different than how Ivan did it. He allowed a sauna about once a month, and frowned upon anything else. Even with a lifter who was so beat down as to be quite literally reduced to crawling on hands and knees to the shower to try to get some relief was stopped and counceled by Ivan on the evils of interrupting the natural processes in the muscle.

Interesting stuff. So the harder the training, the less (or none) recovery work should be done. It so crazy it Just might work!!! Or kill you.

[crackyflipside]

Interesting stuff. So the harder the training, the less (or none) recovery work should be done. It so crazy it Just might work!!! Or kill you.

Not so much the same. Abadjiev is extreme. Medvedyev talks about it, as well as Laputin and Oleshko.

Summarizing what they all said, there are three different types of restoratives: physical, chemical, and psychological. They do blend together but basically physical stuff is sleeping, massage, hot tub, sauna, contrast showers, cardio.... chemical is diet, vitamins, supplements, anti-inflammatory, AAS... psychological stuff is very broad like going for a relaxing walk outside, going to a park, playing cards with friends.... The volume of physical methods increase during training periods, chemical methods increase leading up to competitions, and psychological methods increase after competitions. The more advanced a lifter gets, the more important the chemical restoratives become as well as having more focus on restoration in general. Psychological restoratives are more important for the beginning lifter.

All methods are employed year-round. Plan for fewer restoration measures on the large loading days because some specialists think that higher doses of restoration procedures 'block' the maximum influence of the training on the lifter.

[crackyflipside]

Traditional foods that are natural fermented can do great things for your digestive system. Sauerkraut is a great example of a food gone wrong. It was originally made by letting the cabbage ferment in a salt water solution. This allowed beneficial bacteria and enzymes increase and aid your digestive system. .

Haha, the russian books love talking about kefir drinking at night for digestion reasons. It's a sour milk that is fermented by certain yeast strains. Also kombucha tea, another sour yeast fermented juice like drink.