What's 'wrong' with American Weightlifting?

[NorwichGrad]

as a high schooler who tried and failed getting into the sport (retrying again for college) theres a lot of pressure NOT to do the lifts at a young age, what with all the football jocks boasting a big bench press and the lax broz doing their curlz for the gurlz. its become such a meathead thing at a younger level, maybe even as simple as the whole "how much can you bench?" situation.

Lots of valid reasons why the US sucks at Oly internationally. This ^^ certainly is one of which. I get the occasional 'what does that work?' from young brahs at the gym when they see me do Oly (in fact, I was asked that question this AM). Again, many posters submitted great points as to why we stink; however, I think using available technology (i.e. ********, blogging, forums, youtube, etc...) we oly lifters can popularize the sport in the US (one of the key ingredients, IMO we can all agree on this) and hopefully someday every gym in America will have bumper plates and platforms instead of pneumatic blue machines that work the 'lower' bicep (I know, there is no such thing as lower bicep, but you get my drift). Popularizing the sport in America will take time. It will take time and effort from ALL demographics - from you younger brahs all the way to us master lifters.

[nurburg]

Lots of valid reasons why the US sucks at Oly internationally. This ^^ certainly is one of which. I get the occasional 'what does that work?' from young brahs at the gym when they see me do Oly (in fact, I was asked that question this AM). Again, many posters submitted great points as to why we stink; however, I think using available technology (i.e. ********, blogging, forums, youtube, etc...) we oly lifters can popularize the sport in the US (one of the key ingredients, IMO we can all agree on this) and hopefully someday every gym in America will have bumper plates and platforms instead of pneumatic blue machines that work the 'lower' bicep (I know, there is no such thing as lower bicep, but you get my drift). Popularizing the sport in America will take time. It will take time and effort from ALL demographics - from you younger brahs all the way to us master lifters.

Agreed that there are a lot of great points in this thread. The combination of crossfit gaining more momentum (it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing) and youtube is a great way to expose the sport. I see crossfit as a gimmick but it's better than nothing. Maybe someday we'll having people walking into more gyms across America, seeing all this cybex and hammer strength machines, and asking "Where the **** are the platforms and bumper plates?! This is bull****!"... sigh, one can dream.

I feel most strongly that the lack of incentives is the problem. I don't know what stipends are like from places like Cal Strength, Broz, or the USAW team are like but I'm sure there is very little money to be made (I'm only talking about making ends meet, not making bank). Couple this with the fact that if you show extraordinary talent in terms of strength, speed at a younger age you're going to be strongly encouraged to take up American Football. Football already has a huge infrastructure for developing athletes from a very young age (much like the "feeder systems" as seen in countries where oly lifting is popular like Russian and China). You don't even have to be particularly great at the sport to make a career out of the game in some form (coach, trainer, etc).

Just my 2 cents...

[ViKtoricus]

Is it the workout regiments? The lack of advertisement for the sport? The lack of access to 'medicine'?

There you go. You've already answered your own question.

[nurburg]

There you go. You've already answered your own question.

Are talking true lack of "access" or what? Is it easier/cheaper to create drugs that pass the tests or just bribe the officials outright? What strategies are other countries employing when it comes to a doping regime?

[quetzalCAN]

Is it the workout regiments? The lack of advertisement for the sport? The lack of access to 'medicine'? I'm just curious... The US isn't too far behind in other sports compared to the rest of the world, but in weightlifting, I can't recall the last time a male lifter won a gold medal at the olympics. So what's the deal?

Was there anyone after Mark Henry?
Very simply, you pay athletes to become great, you provide the necessary resources to do it and then you proceed to look the other way when your athletes take the illegal drugs and you have the top guys that can go to worlds and get gold.
Look at how many Greeks showed up to the last olympics; almost entire men's team stopped because of possibility of testing positive.
Olympic-Weightlifting in North America just isn't on the same marketable level as football or baseball. In countries where your athletes aren't known for anything and then you proceed to become champions of the sport (like Kazahkstan) it draws interest because it shows you can succeed. Think about the NFL players making millions, a lot of those same nfl players are obscenely strong and could, with the right training, be the top of the weightlifting sport in America but it doesn't pay.

[ViKtoricus]

Are talking true lack of "access" or what? Is it easier/cheaper to create drugs that pass the tests or just bribe the officials outright? What strategies are other countries employing when it comes to a doping regime?

I'm talking all of the above. Many of our athletes don't train hard enough, the sport itself doesn't get advertised enough, and we are too strict on juicing.

In my opinion, drug testing should NEVER exist. Let the lifters develop bitch tits and liver disease if they are that desperate to win (Steroids, if used wisely, will have minimal to zero bad side effects).

Banning drugs is just another way society deprives people of human supremacy. The only reason why I don't juice up right now is because I can't afford them (I lost my job several days ago and my mom is paying for my gym membership).

[Iberian80]

I'm talking all of the above. Many of our athletes don't train hard enough, the sport itself doesn't get advertised enough, and we are too strict on juicing.

In my opinion, drug testing should NEVER exist. Let the lifters develop bitch tits and liver disease if they are that desperate to win (Steroids, if used wisely, will have minimal to zero bad side effects).

Banning drugs is just another way society deprives people of human supremacy. The only reason why I don't juice up right now is because I can't afford them (I lost my job several days ago and my mom is paying for my gym membership).

What about utilizing techniques like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1677236.stm

I would assume with some time and enough money a way to transplant muscles from "willing" donors could be found.

[nurburg]

I'm talking all of the above. Many of our athletes don't train hard enough, the sport itself doesn't get advertised enough, and we are too strict on juicing.

How does the USADA testing compare to testing at an international level? I'm not very clear on what the testing procedures are like (random sampling, urine or blood, what tests are performed, how long before a meet an athlete must be tested).

I have gotten the impression that the US has VERY strict testing policies relative to the rest of the world but it was never clear to me why. Are they very intent on avoiding a scandal (which is stupid anyway because american athletes are using enhancements left and right, some getting caught, some not)?

I'm also genuinely curious to know what "supplementation" if any guys like Ferris, Fleming, Mendes, Shankle, North, etc are on (if any, because I'm not convinced that they are... mendes maybe ...

[ViKtoricus]

How does the USADA testing compare to testing at an international level? I'm not very clear on what the testing procedures are like (random sampling, urine or blood, what tests are performed, how long before a meet an athlete must be tested).

I have gotten the impression that the US has VERY strict testing policies relative to the rest of the world but it was never clear to me why. Are they very intent on avoiding a scandal (which is stupid anyway because american athletes are using enhancements left and right, some getting caught, some not)?

I'm also genuinely curious to know what "supplementation" if any guys like Ferris, Fleming, Mendes, Shankle, North, etc are on (if any, because I'm not convinced that they are... mendes maybe ...

I don't know. lol. But I do know this. More than 95% of elite athletes are juiced up. The other five percent are aliens.



People will make excuses to not lift heavy. America has low standards for physical strength and American Powerlifting sucks. It sucks so bad that the average elite weightlifter can easily break a squat record in a Powerlifting federation at this very moment.

[John Prophet]

People will make excuses to not lift heavy. America has low standards for physical strength and American Powerlifting sucks. It sucks so bad that the average elite weightlifter can easily break a squat record in a Powerlifting federation at this very moment.

what actually sucks is that American powerlifters have world records in the IPF and yet American weightlifters arent even on the map internationally.

[ViKtoricus]

what actually sucks is that American powerlifters have world records in the IPF and yet American weightlifters arent even on the map internationally.

Is it due to the divided federations?

[olyw8lifter]

How does the USADA testing compare to testing at an international level? I'm not very clear on what the testing procedures are like (random sampling, urine or blood, what tests are performed, how long before a meet an athlete must be tested).

I have gotten the impression that the US has VERY strict testing policies relative to the rest of the world but it was never clear to me why. Are they very intent on avoiding a scandal (which is stupid anyway because american athletes are using enhancements left and right, some getting caught, some not)?

I'm also genuinely curious to know what "supplementation" if any guys like Ferris, Fleming, Mendes, Shankle, North, etc are on (if any, because I'm not convinced that they are... mendes maybe ...

Here's what little I know. US testing is random urine tests. However, they can show and test as often as they like. I know Chad Vaughn has been tested as many as 18 times in a year, same with Shane Hamman. I know this from talking to both of them about it!! The tester will show up unannounced and report that they have a certain amount of time to produce a sample. That's it!!

Internationaly, they maybe get tested twice a year and it's supposed to be random. But, often the coaches know when the testers arrive in country and if they don't think their lifter is clean, the lifter cannot be found to test. They pay a small fine and go about their business!! International elite lifters can easily go on a 6-10 week cycle and be off by the time a meet comes up. Most likely they won't get tested during that time. There are other things they can do to mask the results too if they do get tested too close to when they came off their cycle!!

I think most of the US "elites" are only on typical supplements like food, protein, creatine, other vitamins!! Most of them have blogs and/or ******** pages, so you could probably ask them directly!!

[nurburg]

Here's what little I know. US testing is random urine tests. However, they can show and test as often as they like. I know Chad Vaughn has been tested as many as 18 times in a year, same with Shane Hamman. I know this from talking to both of them about it!! The tester will show up unannounced and report that they have a certain amount of time to produce a sample. That's it!!

Internationaly, they maybe get tested twice a year and it's supposed to be random. But, often the coaches know when the testers arrive in country and if they don't think their lifter is clean, the lifter cannot be found to test. They pay a small fine and go about their business!! International elite lifters can easily go on a 6-10 week cycle and be off by the time a meet comes up. Most likely they won't get tested during that time. There are other things they can do to mask the results too if they do get tested too close to when they came off their cycle!!

I think most of the US "elites" are only on typical supplements like food, protein, creatine, other vitamins!! Most of them have blogs and/or ******** pages, so you could probably ask them directly!!

Very interesting. I know Glen Pendlay has stated explicitly that his athletes at Cal Strength are clean and to the point that they do employ a chemist (no shortage of them being near UC Berkeley) to test supplements like creatine, protein powders, etc to make sure there are no banned substances. The list of banned substances is so freaking long you better know what you're getting from suppliers, right? I have no reason to doubt him. I follow the cal strength blog and I know how hard those guys work.

Regarding the international testing... that's pretty much what I thought. If not appearing for a test doesn't result in a failed test then what's the point. There was the recent case with Georgi Markov and Alan Tsagaev of Bulgaria being banned for life after a second positive test but I'm always suspicious what went on behind the scenes. Either someone really screwed up on Bulgaria's side (possibly the athletes themselves) or they did something to piss off WADA... or both. This is also why I take Abadjiev's opinions on training with a healthy grain of salt since doping protocol seems to come so much into play with his expectations.

Also thank you for a level headed response. Steroids can be such a touchy subject but as long as everyone's juicing it's a level playing field in my opinion.

[iron_monster]

We're tested, they're not /thread

[Iberian80]

We're tested, they're not /thread

Then why would Misha mention how hard it is to train being steriod free for so long? If someone who was previously taking steroids and wanted to win an olympic medal stopped taking them I am assuming it is because he was worried about being tested. It could be that he is an awesome guy who thinks it is against the spirit of the games to take steroids but as much as I love Misha I don't think that is the case.

I would also suspect that with the rival nations of both past and current that we would see a lot more nations busted like Greece and Bulgaria were. Especially of the repeat medal winnners.

If nothing else the steroids are not able to be used near to the levels they were in the 80's. There are plenty of records set by lighter lifters from the 80's that aren't touched today even with nice equipment and improved training/research. The gap between US and world lifters has stayed the same even though the steroid effects have diminished. (US lifters ~10% less than the world elite)

[asbrus]

B0tt0m line it c0mes d0wn t0 the h0rrid c0aching.

[asbrus]

food for thought. If 10-20 genetically superior athletes (lets say they were well conditioned 16-18 yr olds) were brought here from overseas, paid well to train, and were put under american coaches.....what would be the result?

And again, to play devils advocate, the money issue doesnt seem to be the main driver because olympic medals sort of transcend money. Also, powerlifters were mentioned. Powerlifters essentially dont make a dime yet they train balls to the wall for years in addition to working full time.

American powerlifters do have world records and world champion status for instance in the ipf. (kirk karwoski, wade hooper, brian siders) how is powerlifting that different than weightlifting?

well it is differennt. P0werlifting m0vements are p0pular in the u.s. Bench press, squat, and deadlift. The snatch and clean and jerk is n0t.

[felderz]

bit off topic here guys, but on the 1st page people are mentioning what looks like russian training regime books? I was wondering if anyone knew the name/authors of these books so I could look them up, cheers.

[felderz]

sub

[John Prophet]

bit off topic here guys, but on the 1st page people are mentioning what looks like russian training regime books? I was wondering if anyone knew the name/authors of these books so I could look them up, cheers.

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elit...lt.asp?cid=222

[felderz]

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elit...lt.asp?cid=222

sweet thanks so much!