What's 'wrong' with American Weightlifting?

[raffiki]

Perhaps the sole reason one can logically form is USAW just does that horrible of a job, that it manages to take being the representative organization for the world's only superpower and squanders it. Just a conjecture.

That really is it. With a $2M/year budget it is insane that they don't support full time athletes. It makes no sense to not offer $50-100,000 for medals. If they fired everyone and just passed out cash for acheivments we would be a gold contender by 2016, and have 3x more members.

[Iberian80]

That really is it. With a $2M/year budget it is insane that they don't support full time athletes. It makes no sense to not offer $50-100,000 for medals. If they fired everyone and just passed out cash for acheivments we would be a gold contender by 2016, and have 3x more members.

You know what is even more sad? People who play videogames professionally make more money than our olympic lifters.

Option 1) Put in 1000's of hours working super hard in a gym

or...


Option 2) Put in 100's of hours on the couch in your house

It takes years of dedication to have a chance for an Olympic medal every 4 years. Most professional gamers play maybe 1 or 2 years of a game and when a new game is released the playing field is nearly leveled.

[bigkarl]

American/Western culture is different. A lot of people would rather see a humongous bench press than a moderate heavy snatch. Because of that, there are less coaches here due to less fans than places like Russia. So we will naturally not be as good at it. That and powerlifting is an easy sport and much more popular so powerlifting will keep getting it's fans, as will strongman whereas many people will not have interest in learning The Lifts.

[Iberian80]

American/Western culture is different. A lot of people would rather see a humongous bench press than a moderate heavy snatch. Because of that, there are less coaches here due to less fans than places like Russia. So we will naturally not be as good at it. That and powerlifting is an easy sport and much more popular so powerlifting will keep getting it's fans, as will strongman whereas many people will not have interest in learning The Lifts.

Powerlifting is not an easy sport. There is less technique involved no doubt but the fact that you have to build an incredible mass of muscle require years of work. I think almost all records are set by men in their mid 30's. It just isn't likely you will build the muscle required in less time than that. I am not a powerlifter by any means and don't seek to have that body but to say what they do is easy undermines the dedication they have to their craft.

[raffiki]

American/Western culture is different.

This is a moot point. There will always be plenty of gifted lifters ready to dedicate themselves. The problem is that there are thousands of lifters worldwide who are paid to train. You can piss and moan about how we don't train like Bulgarians or Chinese, but they didn't/don't wait tables, do construction, personal training, etc 20-40 hours a week in addition to higher education (because obviously there is no future in weightlifting). Our best lifters tend to drop out around 25 to get on with their lives. Weightlifters aren't asking to make as much as football players, they just need to make a living.

[John Prophet]

food for thought. If 10-20 genetically superior athletes (lets say they were well conditioned 16-18 yr olds) were brought here from overseas, paid well to train, and were put under AMERICAN coaches.....what would be the result?

and again, to play devils advocate, the money issue doesnt seem to be the main driver because olympic medals sort of transcend money. Also, powerlifters were mentioned. Powerlifters essentially dont make a dime yet they train balls to the wall for years in addition to working full time.

American powerlifters DO have world records and world champion status for instance in the IPF. (Kirk Karwoski, Wade Hooper, Brian Siders) How is powerlifting THAT different than weightlifting?

[J.L.C.]

Starting at 16-18 is likely too late if the goal is an olympic medal.

[BadSnatch]

Starting at 16-18 is likely too late if the goal is an olympic medal.

Maybe if you want to medal as a junior.

[J.L.C.]

Maybe if you want to medal as a junior.

Or as a senior, considering medalists are usually in their mid 20's. An olympic medal requires more than a couple years of training.

[John Prophet]

Starting at 16-18 is likely too late if the goal is an olympic medal.

No, I meant if we took a kid who was already on a good track. If we plucked him out of europe or asia and brought him here


or think of this possible scenario. A kid is training under Rigert or another proven coach in Europe. Lets say he is 15. This kid is on the standard Russian path for his age group to being a decent international competitor. Of course he himself doesnt understand all of the programming at that point...he just does what the coach tells him. His family moves to America and he gets under American coaching. What happens to him from that point? The genetics issue is gone, money isnt an issue yet. He started young enough and he isnt interested in any other sports. Hypothetically what happens to him and why??

[someonefat]

Starting at 16-18 is likely too late if the goal is an olympic medal.

pat mendes started training around that age and he put up 207kg snatch in training. Shane hamman started training at like 25 and he made the olympics and holds the american record right now. His 430 total in 2004 would put him in the top 4 in the world right now-comparing to last world championship- So I don't think that its too late if you start later thats kind of negative way or looking at it. If you willing to really put in the work I think its possible with the right level of determination and coaching.

[someonefat]

Or as a senior, considering medalists are usually in their mid 20's. An olympic medal requires more than a couple years of training.

Seiner took his total from 380 to 460kg in 3 years by training with a different coach/team and putting on weight. So he was already a pro and still put nearly a 100kg on his total in a few years. So I think if someone was really dedicated they could achieve similar results with a couple years also, I mean look at what mendes has done in just a few years with broz as well.

[gbg]

American/Western culture is different. A lot of people would rather see a humongous bench press than a moderate heavy snatch. Because of that, there are less coaches here due to less fans than places like Russia. So we will naturally not be as good at it. That and powerlifting is an easy sport and much more popular so powerlifting will keep getting it's fans, as will strongman whereas many people will not have interest in learning The Lifts.

I don't think it has anything to do with what people want to see rather do, Olympic lifting is hard, I beleive that is the main reason more people don't do it. If you want something bad enough you will find a way to learn it.

I agree with you about American culture, we have a sense of entitlement, we want but we we don't do what it takes to produce a champion, we simply don't work hard enough IMO.

[raffiki]

food for thought. If 10-20 genetically superior athletes (lets say they were well conditioned 16-18 yr olds) were brought here from overseas, paid well to train, and were put under AMERICAN coaches.....what would be the result?

The same as what our lifters do now. Those kids would be forced to start working to pay their bills, they would start thinking about real careers because there is no pay on weightlifting. Now you pay them a salary plus bonuses for medals, and likely one or two will win some medals. But the same would be said for our talented 16-18 year olds also.

and again, to play devils advocate, the money issue doesnt seem to be the main driver because olympic medals sort of transcend money. Also, powerlifters were mentioned. Powerlifters essentially dont make a dime yet they train balls to the wall for years in addition to working full time.*
American powerlifters DO have world records and world champion status for instance in the IPF. (Kirk Karwoski, Wade Hooper, Brian Siders) How is powerlifting THAT different than weightlifting?

PL is way different. Foreign lifters are not paid to lift. However around the world there is more sponsorship money available for the best lifters.

Also the level of competition in international powerlifting is seriously lame. The IPF is the most contested internationally, but if you look at the top 3 you will see a big spread. Often the third place guy is 5-10% off the 1st place total. In weightlifting the same difference puts you in 10-20th place. Would a powerlifter ever get 40th place? Of course not. Not because they are better but because there are only 10 competitors. By the way the USA results in the IPF are slipping. Also notice the PL world records (WPC-type) are done at little local competitions, often with the lifter's*friends*judging. Also many lifters hit a world record in one lift and blow off the total. Weigtlifters always go for the total. There is no comparison. Seriously look at the results for IPF worlds (or for a real laugh the WPC), and see where they would land in weightlifting, where there is real competition, just going by percentage from the winner.

[J.L.C.]

Seiner took his total from 380 to 460kg in 3 years by training with a different coach/team and putting on weight. So he was already a pro and still put nearly a 100kg on his total in a few years. So I think if someone was really dedicated they could achieve similar results with a couple years also, I mean look at what mendes has done in just a few years with broz as well.

Like you said, Steiner was already a high-level lifter; what age was he when he started training?

Mendes is great; but if we're talking about olympic medals, he'd need to maintain his lifts while dropping 4 or 5 weight classes.

[John Prophet]

The same as what our lifters do now. Those kids would be forced to start working to pay their bills, they would start thinking about real careers because there is no pay on weightlifting. Now you pay them a salary plus bonuses for medals, and likely one or two will win some medals. But the same would be said for our talented 16-18 year olds also.

wow, for being one of the big defenders and supporters of American weightlifting, you have an extremely pessimistic attitude. Do you think there is ANY scenario where an American male would be able to get a top 3 in the olympics or World championships? If not, then we should all go around and tell kids not to get into weightlifting? or should the USAW just close its doors?

[bigkarl]

Powerlifting is not an easy sport. There is less technique involved no doubt but the fact that you have to build an incredible mass of muscle require years of work. I think almost all records are set by men in their mid 30's. It just isn't likely you will build the muscle required in less time than that. I am not a powerlifter by any means and don't seek to have that body but to say what they do is easy undermines the dedication they have to their craft.

Idk. maybe it is an american thing, but powerlifters come across as guys who are just closet bodybuilders that find it too hard to cut down. Let's not forget that half of "elite lifts" are bs due to gear and the fact that every time a powerlifter doesn't break a world record, they make a new fed and change the definition of parallel to a half squat and allow unlimited gear.

This is a moot point. There will always be plenty of gifted lifters ready to dedicate themselves. The problem is that there are thousands of lifters worldwide who are paid to train. You can piss and moan about how we don't train like Bulgarians or Chinese, but they didn't/don't wait tables, do construction, personal training, etc 20-40 hours a week in addition to higher education (because obviously there is no future in weightlifting). Our best lifters tend to drop out around 25 to get on with their lives. Weightlifters aren't asking to make as much as football players, they just need to make a living.

So our mindset and training philosophies are moot?

I don't think it has anything to do with what people want to see rather do, Olympic lifting is hard, I beleive that is the main reason more people don't do it. If you want something bad enough you will find a way to learn it.

I agree with you about American culture, we have a sense of entitlement, we want but we we don't do what it takes to produce a champion, we simply don't work hard enough IMO.

Well that is kind of what i meant, and also what i meant when i said powerlifting is easy. Everything here is machismo. Anyone with any size to their frame can walk into a gym and half squat 275 lbs for reps or hitch, strapped rack pull 365, whereas not a lot of "macho" guys would be content with toppling over on their asses for months with weight that 14 year old girls are C&J'ing easy. I'm not trying to be offensive or sound like a hypocrite, but the only interest i have ever had in powerlifting came from squatting and even then i prefer high bar.

[olyw8lifter]

There are lots of very valid points brought up in this thread!! As Raffiki said, our lifters are not paid to lift as if it's their job. In most other countries, they are. That's a huge incentive. Not to mention the bonuses put up for medals and world records!! AND, most of this funding comes from their governments. In the US, this is not going to happen, most likely due to Weightlifting not being a National Sport (what is BTW??).


Also, we don't have a national feeder system in place to recognize kids from a young age who would excel in weightlifting. Those kids who are strong and athletic by nature make their way into the pro leagues that pay huge salaries (NFL, MLB, NBA, etc). I'm not saying there are other kids, but unless there is something to attract those kids to weightlifting (maybe after they have tried and failed to compete in one of the pro sports), most of them don't know that Olympic Weightlifting is even a sport to consider. Even if they do, they have to earn a living, and that will almost always take priority over the intense amount of training required to get to the top in weightlifting.

There are many reasons that the US is not at the top in weightlifting, and everybody seems to think that their reason is the only one (talent, drugs, recruitment, etc), but in reality they are all connected and ALL of them combine to create the state US weightlifting is in now!!

On the other hand, there are many people who are trying to bring US back into the top of weightlifting. Glenn Pendlay, Mark Rippetoe, Jim Moser, and many other lifters are starting to improve their totals to get into the A sessions of International meets. We need to encourage these folks in what they're doing. Also, getting facilities/gyms with some basic level of coaching and equipment is something we, as in the US, need to get going too!!

Everybody has to do their part, otherwise we will continue to be middle of the pack and the US will get outlifted by countries who do make it a priority!!

[raffiki]

wow, for being one of the big defenders and supporters of American weightlifting, you have an extremely pessimistic attitude. Do you think there is ANY scenario where an American male would be able to get a top 3 in the olympics or World championships? If not, then we should all go around and tell kids not to get into weightlifting? or should the USAW just close its doors?

I don't think you read anything I wrote because your response doesn't make sense. The scenario is that lifters get paid to train and then we win medals.

[raffiki]

So our mindset and training philosophies are moot?

Mindset is not an issue. Our lifters want to win.

Training is certainly an issue. Unfortunately the popular approach is to take systems from other countries and try to use those. Since these systems are based on out of competition drug use, they have to be modified. When that happens you don't get the same results. Pendlay andPierceare basically our top 2 coaches because they have developed their own systems based on what really works for them.

[John Prophet]

I don't think you read anything I wrote because your response doesn't make sense. The scenario is that lifters get paid to train and then we win medals.

you have the actual salary breakdown of all oly medal winners? EVERY country but us has "Pros" lifting??


Again then, how do we win in ANY sport?

[gbg]

There are lots of very valid points brought up in this thread!! As Raffiki said, our lifters are not paid to lift as if it's their job. In most other countries, they are. That's a huge incentive. Not to mention the bonuses put up for medals and world records!! AND, most of this funding comes from their governments. In the US, this is not going to happen, most likely due to Weightlifting not being a National Sport (what is BTW??).


Also, we don't have a national feeder system in place to recognize kids from a young age who would excel in weightlifting. Those kids who are strong and athletic by nature make their way into the pro leagues that pay huge salaries (NFL, MLB, NBA, etc). I'm not saying there are other kids, but unless there is something to attract those kids to weightlifting (maybe after they have tried and failed to compete in one of the pro sports), most of them don't know that Olympic Weightlifting is even a sport to consider. Even if they do, they have to earn a living, and that will almost always take priority over the intense amount of training required to get to the top in weightlifting.

There are many reasons that the US is not at the top in weightlifting, and everybody seems to think that their reason is the only one (talent, drugs, recruitment, etc), but in reality they are all connected and ALL of them combine to create the state US weightlifting is in now!!

On the other hand, there are many people who are trying to bring US back into the top of weightlifting. Glenn Pendlay, Mark Rippetoe, Jim Moser, and many other lifters are starting to improve their totals to get into the A sessions of International meets. We need to encourage these folks in what they're doing. Also, getting facilities/gyms with some basic level of coaching and equipment is something we, as in the US, need to get going too!!

Everybody has to do their part, otherwise we will continue to be middle of the pack and the US will get outlifted by countries who do make it a priority!!

I agree. There are many reasons! why so focused on proving that your's is the one? anyway, I'm sure if it was you wouldn't be posting on bodybuilding .com.

[someonefat]

Like you said, Steiner was already a high-level lifter; what age was he when he started training?

Mendes is great; but if we're talking about olympic medals, he'd need to maintain his lifts while dropping 4 or 5 weight classes.

around 13/15 like many european lifters I believe, point is when he was already older he still put on about 100kg on his total by training with a better team under a new coach. Also mendes last meet he was injured and it doesn't reflect his best lifts in training. Also like I mentioned shane hamman started training oly lifting around 25 and came really far also, imagine if he started training with say the best russian coaches instead of his american coaches at the time.

[olyw8lifter]

you have the actual salary breakdown of all oly medal winners? EVERY country but us has "Pros" lifting??


Again then, how do we win in ANY sport?

We win in some sports purely due to number of members!! Look at swimming, USA Swimming has approx 300,000 members, USA weightlifting has about 7,000. When you have that many people practicing and competing in the sport, you are bound to have a few good enough to win some medals. There is probably some difference in the way the other Olympic sports are treated and given money due to their popularity here in the US. When a sport is winning medals, then USOC will put more money into further developing that sport, and vice versa!! That's just my take on it, based on reading alot of material.

[raffiki]

you have the actual salary breakdown of all oly medal winners? EVERY country but us has "Pros" lifting??


Again then, how do we win in ANY sport?

You are pretty ridiculous. The information is available if you want to find it. I'm not going to write a book for you.

By the way, your signature is pretty ironic for someone who is unwilling to listen to people who have years and even decades ofinvolvementin the sport.

[John Prophet]

You are pretty ridiculous. The information is available if you want to find it. I'm not going to write a book for you.

By the way, your signature is pretty ironic for someone who is unwilling to listen to people who have years and even decades ofinvolvementin the sport.

obviously we see it opposite ways because all I hear is you making excuses for lack of performance based around money issues. Im old enough to know that is BS.

Seems to me that you are in a conflicted position. You want to promote the sport in America but you have bought into the lie that its hopeless to oly lift in America.

There are dirt poor people breaking their balls in gyms across America every single day. They dont lift for money. USAW is doing a sad job of not going out and drawing kids into the sport. They could start kids young enough that by 16ish the kid would have huge talent and money wouldnt even be remotely in the picture.

[J.L.C.]

Or....

By 16 they'll be putting in work for a sport that offers them some kind of future, like a college scholarship or a chance to go pro or even semi pro (i.e., make a living at it). Track and field, football, basketball, and baseball all offer that - weightlifting does not.

[olyw8lifter]

Or....

By 16 they'll be putting in work for a sport that offers them some kind of future, like a college scholarship or a chance to go pro or even semi pro (i.e., make a living at it). Track and field, football, basketball, and baseball all offer that - weightlifting does not.

^^^This pretty much sums it up!!

[BredFromFire]

as a high schooler who tried and failed getting into the sport (retrying again for college) theres a lot of pressure NOT to do the lifts at a young age, what with all the football jocks boasting a big bench press and the lax broz doing their curlz for the gurlz. its become such a meathead thing at a younger level, maybe even as simple as the whole "how much can you bench?" situation.

[feces99]

as a high schooler who tried and failed getting into the sport (retrying again for college) theres a lot of pressure NOT to do the lifts at a young age, what with all the football jocks boasting a big bench press and the lax broz doing their curlz for the gurlz. its become such a meathead thing at a younger level, maybe even as simple as the whole "how much can you bench?" situation.

*I know exactly what you mean. I'm currently in high school and only do*Olympic*lifts for the most part and I always get "Do you ever work upper?" then I explain what I'm doing and I get the thousand yard stare. Its funny though because I bench more than all those people the few times I do bench.**