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  1. #1
    I Train to Bring You Pain kfisherx's Avatar
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    Training Program Basics

    It is said that "working out" is when one just goes to the gym and does exercises whereas "training" is what one does when they are on a program designed to specifically progress them. If you are reading this, you are interested in finding a program that will progress you.

    Is This Training Program Good?

    One of the most common questions we get here is to critique some beginner's training program. The answer is ALWAYS the same. Don't create a program if you are beginner. (in fact don't create one if you aren't highly versed in the fitness field.)

    Instead, go find a program written by a professional that works for your goals. I wandered around the other sections of the board and found this amazing "sticky" that I thought we might have stickied in the Female Forum too….

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=118004321

    An addition to that thread is the "female" part of this. Women often have a tiny bit of a dissadvantage in the whole "lifting" world in that it is such a "man's world" and lifting can be very intimidating. We are often so confused by existing pardigms such as "you will get bulky" if you lift too heavy and "cardio is the way to a lean/tone body".

    IMHO one of the very best books that a woman (new to lifting and bodybuilding) can possibly read is New Rules of Lifting for Women. Even if a woman has another training program in mind, the basic concepts of lifting and nutrition and how a woman needs to act in the weight room are worth the 12 or so dollars for the book. There is also an entire section devoted to nutrition. An added benefit of this book is that both Lou Schuler and Cassandra Forsythe (the nutrition expert) will answer your questions personally if you email them.

    Another possible program for female beginners is the Man's version of the New Rules book (Simply titled, New Rules of Lifting). I personally like this program better than the women's version. It gives you an entire years worth of programming and is (again) well worth the 12 dollar investment for the program.

    Some people ask which of the two to get. My answer is if you are female and have never stepped into the free weight section of the gym definitely get the women’s book. Even if you have been lifting for a long while and are female, you will still benefit from the nutritional information if not the actual program.

    If you already are very comfortable in the gym and with mixing and matching programs than the man’s version might be better for you.

    I personally have both.


    Some other good programs are:

    Starting Strength (Mark Ripptoe)

    Power Training (Men's Health)

    5-3-1 (Jim Wendler)


    There are many, many other good choices for a beginner to pick so pick one and work it. It bears saying that working your butt off on a crappy program will give you better results than working half-assedly on a good one. So whatever program you chose, work it hard!

    What program is good for FAT LOSS?

    Fat loss is not really a product of any specific training program but a product of your diet. If your diet is not set up for fat loss, then you will not lose weight no matter how hard you train. You cannot out-train a bad diet. Go to the nutrition section of the female folder and read the stickies on Clean Eating and Cheating and on setting your calories and macros. Sure there are some programs better for fat loss than others but for the most part, people who participate in a good lifting program will be able to obtain their goals of fat loss with the correct diet. (NROL has a fat loss specific program)

    Once you have established the correct diet, then you can work in a program to help you with your goals.

    If you have not looked at these videos yet, you will definitely get a giggle from them if not a big Ah Hah!

    Diet versus Cardio in this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQbuzsY_34Q

    And speaking of cardio…..


    What about cardio?

    Cardio is generally not recommended for most persons wishing to do body re-composition. (Even fat loss) This especially goes for the female population who has for so long been doing way too much cardio. In the book, New Rules for Women, the directive is given to all women to “Step away from the treadmill!” While cardio arguably can do some good things it generally is done far too much and for all the wrong reasons with the female population.

    The biggest problem IMHO with just adding cardio outside of a weight lifting program is that it will potentially cause a woman to drop muscle faster than fat. Since most women have less muscle and lose it faster than men, this is a big problem. Doing only cardio or too much cardio results in women who are skinny fat. For some of the more overweight female populations, cardio can serve to help with the fat loss and will not have negative consequences. Keep in mind that the closer you are to an ideal bodyweight, the harder it is to preserve muscle.

    If you pick a strength or resistance program such as NROL or NROL4W it will tell you what to do for cardio. I like these programs because they introduce HITT as opposed to ss cardio. Outside of the specific guidelines for cardio in a program I have found that as a general rule, trainers say about 20-30 min 2-3 times a week is maximum time for anyone wishing to do cardio and weight train.

    Now here is the “rub” for those of you who are “hard-core” cardio queens and just cannot give it up. Doing cardio can actually completely stop or thwart your fat loss efforts especially as you get closer to your ideal weight. The way that works is that we all burn a certain amount of calories per day in NEAT type of activities. NEAT stands for Non Exercise Thermogenesis Activity and is basically all the moving that you do every day outside of exercise. This could be climbing stars, walking from the car to the door or even fidgeting. Some of us are really good NEAT people. When cardio is added to the mix of a training routine it has the potential to wear a person out and they decrease their NEAT. Net result is even less calories burned. Consider another scenario. Some people do cardio and it triggers mad hunger. They go home and EAT THE HOUSE. Net result is more calories added then burned.

    Often times all a person has to do (if they are stalled on weight loss) is to stop all exercise except for NEAT and focus on diet. This will give them the "correct" baseline for diet and then they can add back in the exercise based from this baseline.

    So the answer is not to just add cardio to your training program. Cardio is certainly not the root of all evil and there are legitimate reasons to do it. Just know that fat loss and muscle gain goals can be easily disrupted with too much cardio. It is about finding the right balance of food, lifting and cardio for you and your goals.


    Happy program picking folks and keep in mind that if you need to ask on a forum if your program is "okay".... ...it most likely is not.
    Last edited by kfisherx; 08-24-2010 at 12:24 AM.
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  2. #2
    Not Swimming. Emma-Leigh's Avatar
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    Stuck as a work in progress...
    *perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim*
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  3. #3
    Gettin' back up again Rowyn's Avatar
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    Yay, I didn't see that this sticky was up, thanks guys!! I need it today
    "A champion is someone who gets up even when he can't" ---Jack Dempsey

    I eat for living, not just lifting.
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    Wow, this was just what I need to read this morning.
    I am down to that last 5 or so pounds of fat to lose and it seemed that most everything I read, up until now, said to kick up the cardio to burn the fat. so, I did. I was weight traing three days a week and doing about 2 hours of cardio a week. I kept my training the same and kicked the cardio up to 3 1/2 to 4 hours a week. As I kicked up the cardio I left my calorie intake the same (1600 a day) After about three weeks of the increased cardio I hit a day where I just felt exhausted, I had no energy, all I wanted to do was sleep. I had lost 2 lbs. but I was questioning whether it was fat los or not. At that point I decided to re-evaluate what I was doing and decided to decrease the cardio and increase my weight traing to four days a week. My new routine is; Monday and Thursday: legs, back, and biceps. Tuesday and friday: chest, shoulders, triceps, and abs. I do two differnt exercises for each muscle group, mostly free weights, three sets of 8-12 each. For my abs I am doing three sets each for oblique, lower, and middle abs. I began this lifestyle change about two years ago. I am 45 years old, 5'2" tall and I weighed 176lbs at that time. I now weigh 123lbs. I had a hydrostatic body comp done back in February. My body fat at that time was 25.5%. I am not sure where it is at now. I am having it done again on Sept. 20th. I eat a clean well rounded diet of about 1600 calories a day, my macros are at about 45% carbs, 30-35% protein and 20-25% fat, except for Saturday. I do have the book "New Rule of Weight Lifting for Women" I bought it about a year ago, I will have to go back and read through it again. I have been following the "Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle" plan. I really want to get rid of this last bit of fat, I am wiling to do what it takes, the problem is figuring that out. I have been at it for two years and haven't quit and I don't plan to now. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    My questions are:

    1.) should I take a couple of weeks off from cardio all together
    2.) based on the info I have given does my calorie intake seem right?
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    Registered User KaraPhoto's Avatar
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    So glad that this is a sticky.
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    I needed to read this today. Thanks for posting.
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    Is any one program better than another for bulking? I have already completed New Rules of Lifting for Women and most of Female Body Breakthrough but never while on a calorie surplus. I think I'd prefer to start doing a upper/lower body split and was considering New Rules of Lifting. What do you gals think?
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    I Train to Bring You Pain kfisherx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tohimmibelong View Post

    1.) should I take a couple of weeks off from cardio all together
    2.) based on the info I have given does my calorie intake seem right?
    What does your program that was written by a professional tell you to do???

    Originally Posted by Rowyn View Post
    Yay, I didn't see that this sticky was up, thanks guys!! I need it today
    Originally Posted by KaraCooks View Post
    So glad that this is a sticky.
    Originally Posted by AprilShowers13 View Post
    I needed to read this today. Thanks for posting.
    You're welcome ladies. Hopefully this will help us all.

    Originally Posted by bethanyboo View Post
    Is any one program better than another for bulking? I have already completed New Rules of Lifting for Women and most of Female Body Breakthrough but never while on a calorie surplus. I think I'd prefer to start doing a upper/lower body split and was considering New Rules of Lifting. What do you gals think?
    I like the 5,3,1 program the best but starting strength is good and NROL has a strength training program too. I think it really is just personal preference at some point. (after diet is right)
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    Originally Posted by kfisherx View Post
    I like the 5,3,1 program the best but starting strength is good and NROL has a strength training program too. I think it really is just personal preference at some point. (after diet is right)
    Thanks! I just read up on 5/3/1 and it sounds very sensible. NROL will be arriving tomorrow so I guess I'll just read it and decide which one sounds like my cup of tea.
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    Originally Posted by bethanyboo View Post
    Thanks! I just read up on 5/3/1 and it sounds very sensible. NROL will be arriving tomorrow so I guess I'll just read it and decide which one sounds like my cup of tea.
    They are quite different! NROL is fairly rigid and meant to make things easier for a person to follow, whereas 531 is more flexible in terms of assistance exercises and is geared more towards those who are experienced.

    Both great though
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    great post


    repped!
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    I'd like to add Turbulence Training to the list of great programs. I went to a fitness seminar in January (Transformation Domination) and heard from lots of renowned industry experts. I've tried some of their programs since then and this is what is giving me the best results so far. And I don't see that changing any time soon. I love the intensity and brevity of the workouts. I love that there are so many to choose from and that I can switch every 3-4 weeks. I've always gotten bored quickly so this is perfect for me. I can recommend others but this really is my fav right now.
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    Thanks for posting this, great info!

    The first link in the OP doesn't work for me, but I was able to get it to work by filling in the ellipses. So, where it says "showth...hp?t", I made it read "showthread.php?t"
    I would simply throw in the correct link here, but I'm too new to be able to post links.
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    That diet vs. cardio video had me laughing out loud!!

    Thanks for the sticky. Great information here!!
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    The diet vs. exercise link was great and so true. I personally need to be aerobic whether it's intervals or steady state for a few reasons and it's all personal:

    1. I like it.
    2. My lungs suck and I believe it helps keep me healthy especially in the winter
    3. I like endurance sports such as mountaineering in higher altitudes
    4. I have pretty thick legs that seem to respond well to jogging (and diet)
    5. I have dogs, big dogs, and they need their exercise

    I definitely know right away if I'm doing too much but overall it helps me feel good, breathe better and I actually feel better when I lift if I jog a few miles first. I have an achy body, chronic pain yada yada yada, whatever, it feels better. But I lift my heart out, at least 3 days a week usually 4, and rest when needed. My diet is getting better by the day because it's not worth it otherwise and I am feeling good. Just don't kill yourself and get outside as much as possible, you go slower, and breathe fresh air. When I go up a mountain side slowly and surely (about 2-3 miles and hour with a steep grade) with 100lbs on my back I feel confident and strong. Back to #1: I like it.
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    Originally Posted by kfisherx View Post
    It is said that "working out" is when one just goes to the gym and does exercises whereas "training" is what one does when they are on a program designed to specifically progress them. If you are reading this, you are interested in finding a program that will progress you.

    Is This Training Program Good?

    One of the most common questions we get here is to critique some beginner's training program. The answer is ALWAYS the same. Don't create a program if you are beginner. (in fact don't create one if you aren't highly versed in the fitness field.)

    Instead, go find a program written by a professional that works for your goals. I wandered around the other sections of the board and found this amazing "sticky" that I thought we might have stickied in the Female Forum too….

    An addition to that thread is the "female" part of this. Women often have a tiny bit of a dissadvantage in the whole "lifting" world in that it is such a "man's world" and lifting can be very intimidating. We are often so confused by existing pardigms such as "you will get bulky" if you lift too heavy and "cardio is the way to a lean/tone body".

    IMHO one of the very best books that a woman (new to lifting and bodybuilding) can possibly read is New Rules of Lifting for Women. Even if a woman has another training program in mind, the basic concepts of lifting and nutrition and how a woman needs to act in the weight room are worth the 12 or so dollars for the book. There is also an entire section devoted to nutrition. An added benefit of this book is that both Lou Schuler and Cassandra Forsythe (the nutrition expert) will answer your questions personally if you email them.

    Another possible program for female beginners is the Man's version of the New Rules book (Simply titled, New Rules of Lifting). I personally like this program better than the women's version. It gives you an entire years worth of programming and is (again) well worth the 12 dollar investment for the program.

    Some people ask which of the two to get. My answer is if you are female and have never stepped into the free weight section of the gym definitely get the women’s book. Even if you have been lifting for a long while and are female, you will still benefit from the nutritional information if not the actual program.

    If you already are very comfortable in the gym and with mixing and matching programs than the man’s version might be better for you.

    I personally have both.


    Some other good programs are:

    Starting Strength (Mark Ripptoe)

    Power Training (Men's Health)

    5-3-1 (Jim Wendler)


    There are many, many other good choices for a beginner to pick so pick one and work it. It bears saying that working your butt off on a crappy program will give you better results than working half-assedly on a good one. So whatever program you chose, work it hard!

    What program is good for FAT LOSS?

    Fat loss is not really a product of any specific training program but a product of your diet. If your diet is not set up for fat loss, then you will not lose weight no matter how hard you train. You cannot out-train a bad diet. Go to the nutrition section of the female folder and read the stickies on Clean Eating and Cheating and on setting your calories and macros. Sure there are some programs better for fat loss than others but for the most part, people who participate in a good lifting program will be able to obtain their goals of fat loss with the correct diet. (NROL has a fat loss specific program)

    Once you have established the correct diet, then you can work in a program to help you with your goals.

    If you have not looked at these videos yet, you will definitely get a giggle from them if not a big Ah Hah!

    Diet versus Cardio in this one:

    And speaking of cardio…..


    What about cardio?

    Cardio is generally not recommended for most persons wishing to do body re-composition. (Even fat loss) This especially goes for the female population who has for so long been doing way too much cardio. In the book, New Rules for Women, the directive is given to all women to “Step away from the treadmill!” While cardio arguably can do some good things it generally is done far too much and for all the wrong reasons with the female population.

    The biggest problem IMHO with just adding cardio outside of a weight lifting program is that it will potentially cause a woman to drop muscle faster than fat. Since most women have less muscle and lose it faster than men, this is a big problem. Doing only cardio or too much cardio results in women who are skinny fat. For some of the more overweight female populations, cardio can serve to help with the fat loss and will not have negative consequences. Keep in mind that the closer you are to an ideal bodyweight, the harder it is to preserve muscle.

    If you pick a strength or resistance program such as NROL or NROL4W it will tell you what to do for cardio. I like these programs because they introduce HITT as opposed to ss cardio. Outside of the specific guidelines for cardio in a program I have found that as a general rule, trainers say about 20-30 min 2-3 times a week is maximum time for anyone wishing to do cardio and weight train.

    Now here is the “rub” for those of you who are “hard-core” cardio queens and just cannot give it up. Doing cardio can actually completely stop or thwart your fat loss efforts especially as you get closer to your ideal weight. The way that works is that we all burn a certain amount of calories per day in NEAT type of activities. NEAT stands for Non Exercise Thermogenesis Activity and is basically all the moving that you do every day outside of exercise. This could be climbing stars, walking from the car to the door or even fidgeting. Some of us are really good NEAT people. When cardio is added to the mix of a training routine it has the potential to wear a person out and they decrease their NEAT. Net result is even less calories burned. Consider another scenario. Some people do cardio and it triggers mad hunger. They go home and EAT THE HOUSE. Net result is more calories added then burned.

    Often times all a person has to do (if they are stalled on weight loss) is to stop all exercise except for NEAT and focus on diet. This will give them the "correct" baseline for diet and then they can add back in the exercise based from this baseline.

    So the answer is not to just add cardio to your training program. Cardio is certainly not the root of all evil and there are legitimate reasons to do it. Just know that fat loss and muscle gain goals can be easily disrupted with too much cardio. It is about finding the right balance of food, lifting and cardio for you and your goals.


    Happy program picking folks and keep in mind that if you need to ask on a forum if your program is "okay".... ...it most likely is not.
    What about only doing HIIT and eliminating cardio?
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    Red face

    Originally Posted by kfisherx View Post
    What does your program that was written by a professional tell you to do???







    You're welcome ladies. Hopefully this will help us all.



    I like the 5,3,1 program the best but starting strength is good and NROL has a strength training program too. I think it really is just personal preference at some point. (after diet is right)
    I would just like to point out that some people cant afford a program from a professional and they use these forums as a way to access more porfessional opinions. And to say that if you have to ask if your program is ok, than its probably not can be really off putting to a first timer in these types of forums (such as myself).

    Thanks
    Shanz
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    Originally Posted by shanz3 View Post
    I would just like to point out that some people cant afford a program from a professional
    They can't afford to get on Google and find a program designed and published by a professional? Really? So they can afford to access this site, but not, say, Starting Strength? Or StrongLifts? They can't afford to go to the library and pick up a copy of the New Rules of Lifting? Or New Rules for Women? Or Body for Life? Really?

    Nope. Big old lame excuse.

    And to say that if you have to ask if your program is ok, than its probably not can be really off putting to a first timer in these types of forums (such as myself).
    Is this another of those situations where people say "you're being mean" because the answer is something they don't want to hear? I'm so tired of the concept that you have to be "nice" (translation: don't tell me that I'm wrong) ... or you're accused of being "off putting"

    The truth is that there are LOTS of professionally designed programs out there on the Internet, in books, in libraries if you can't afford the $12 for a book, etc. If you find program that looks good to you, there's nothing wrong with coming here and saying "I found this program online - can anyone tell me if it's reputable". OTOH, someone who must makes up a routine and then comes to the board to ask if it's ok ... telling them the truth is not "mean" or "rude" ... and if you can't handle the truth and find it to be "off-putting" then maybe you shouldn't be seeking advice on message boards.
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    Originally Posted by thedogdidit View Post
    Thanks for posting this, great info!

    The first link in the OP doesn't work for me, but I was able to get it to work by filling in the ellipses. So, where it says "showth...hp?t", I made it read "showthread.php?t"
    I would simply throw in the correct link here, but I'm too new to be able to post links.
    That link didn't work for me either. Here is the link:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=118004321
    ~Olivia~

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    Originally Posted by missalicia View Post
    What about only doing HIIT and eliminating cardio?
    Originally Posted by 27Roots View Post
    The diet vs. exercise link was great and so true. I personally need to be aerobic whether it's intervals or steady state for a few reasons and it's all personal:

    1. I like it.
    2. My lungs suck and I believe it helps keep me healthy especially in the winter
    3. I like endurance sports such as mountaineering in higher altitudes
    4. I have pretty thick legs that seem to respond well to jogging (and diet)
    5. I have dogs, big dogs, and they need their exercise

    I definitely know right away if I'm doing too much but overall it helps me feel good, breathe better and I actually feel better when I lift if I jog a few miles first. I have an achy body, chronic pain yada yada yada, whatever, it feels better. But I lift my heart out, at least 3 days a week usually 4, and rest when needed. My diet is getting better by the day because it's not worth it otherwise and I am feeling good. Just don't kill yourself and get outside as much as possible, you go slower, and breathe fresh air. When I go up a mountain side slowly and surely (about 2-3 miles and hour with a steep grade) with 100lbs on my back I feel confident and strong. Back to #1: I like it.

    To both of you, please refer to this uber cool interview with Alan....

    http://www.simplyshredded.com/nutrit...edded-com.html


    Originally Posted by shanz3 View Post
    I would just like to point out that some people cant afford a program from a professional and they use these forums as a way to access more porfessional opinions. And to say that if you have to ask if your program is ok, than its probably not can be really off putting to a first timer in these types of forums (such as myself).

    Thanks
    Shanz
    This post I honestly do not get... Did you even read what I wrote? I am not talking about people hiring a professional. I am talking about them going to the library or laying out 11 dollars for a book. I think there are also some decent free programs. And there are many resources given. What about this can people really not afford? If you are coming here as a first timer with a program you wrote and do not know if it is good, then it probably isn't. That is a fact. If you are expert enough to write a program, you would not be on here asking about its value. Again, why is this taken personally?
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    Training Programs

    As a professional, I like to pick the industry leaders for ideas and I also like to weed out those programs and plans that are bogus or not based on scientifc fact and sound ideas. I can even find some of these recent plan books at yard sales for cheap or the grocery store. I have book shelf of research and professional books, yes I am a book-a-holic. I am a voracious reader and usually have 3-4 books going at the same time. But yes most people can find what they want for cheap and used online, the kicker it can delivered to their door.

    Go to Barnes and Noble, Books A million, or local large Book Seller-and browse the books and then go online and compare the prices. Then buy online. If you are a member of the club thing you get them at a discount. If you are and educator or Home educator you can get a discount too.

    Make use of those discounts-all of my books are for education. I teach my kids about various fads and sound plans so they can judge for themselves.

    That's my 2 cents.
    How I choose to be happy with my husband (ColonelDad), kids, health, our businesses, our Farm, teaching about self-directed Education for all. Work Hard, play hard, Live & love your life and be happy.
    Angel Fidler*
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    doTERRA Wellness Advocate, mydoterra.com/angelsheavenlybodies
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    Registered User shanz3's Avatar
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    Red face

    Originally Posted by KaraPhoto View Post
    They can't afford to get on Google and find a program designed and published by a professional? Really? So they can afford to access this site, but not, say, Starting Strength? Or StrongLifts? They can't afford to go to the library and pick up a copy of the New Rules of Lifting? Or New Rules for Women? Or Body for Life? Really?

    Nope. Big old lame excuse.

    Is this another of those situations where people say "you're being mean" because the answer is something they don't want to hear? I'm so tired of the concept that you have to be "nice" (translation: don't tell me that I'm wrong) ... or you're accused of being "off putting"

    The truth is that there are LOTS of professionally designed programs out there on the Internet, in books, in libraries if you can't afford the $12 for a book, etc. If you find program that looks good to you, there's nothing wrong with coming here and saying "I found this program online - can anyone tell me if it's reputable". OTOH, someone who must makes up a routine and then comes to the board to ask if it's ok ... telling them the truth is not "mean" or "rude" ... and if you can't handle the truth and find it to be "off-putting" then maybe you shouldn't be seeking advice on message boards.
    Your right and i stand corrected, i guess i was one of those people and just want to say thank you for being so honest. As i am new to body building and am hoping to enter a figure comp next year, but i am unsure as to were to begin this sight has been great and its people like you that are needed so that bumbling idiots like myself can learn some real facts.

    Thanks
    Nothing comes without hard work and dedication. We are our own demons and angels.
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    wow

    So I've spent years thinking I had to do cardio 5 times a week for like an hour to lose weight? Good thing I didn't last more than a few weeks doing that sad thing is that I'm still overweight by about 30-40 lbs IMO. 5'7 and 170

    So I have a question..... I'm just beginning a weight training program but I LOVE off-road biking. I go on trips for miles and miles sometimes as long as 3-5 hours at least 2-3 times per week. I've been doing that for about a month now. Can I continue this while weight training? BTW.... I've lost no weight over the last month of doing this so not sure what is going on there. Anyone have some advice for this total noob?
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    If you have a lot of weight to lose then cardio can be very beneficial. So if you enjoy your bike rides then by all means continue your rides.

    With that said, losing fat all comes down to your diet. Make sure you have that in check otherwise you will not see the results you want. Check out the stickies for a good starting point. Then adjust as necessary.
    ~Olivia~

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    I Train to Bring You Pain kfisherx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ShayShay43 View Post
    So I've spent years thinking I had to do cardio 5 times a week for like an hour to lose weight? Good thing I didn't last more than a few weeks doing that sad thing is that I'm still overweight by about 30-40 lbs IMO. 5'7 and 170

    So I have a question..... I'm just beginning a weight training program but I LOVE off-road biking. I go on trips for miles and miles sometimes as long as 3-5 hours at least 2-3 times per week. I've been doing that for about a month now. Can I continue this while weight training? BTW.... I've lost no weight over the last month of doing this so not sure what is going on there. Anyone have some advice for this total noob?

    While I agree that SOME cardio is beneficial for weight loss under SOME circumstances, you are doing a heck of a lot more than SOME cardio. Once you start doing that amount of ss type work, it is very hard to achieve a balance of all the things you needed for fat loss while maintaining muscle. Most trainers recommend no more than 3 twenty minute sessions a week of cardio coupled with weight training for best results. At some point, you have to pick your priorities. If weight loss is your priority, then cut down the cardio and focus on becoming an expert with nutrition, calories/macros, etc. while doing your weight lifting program. If you LOVE to ride for that many hours each week, then feed that appropriately so that you do not suffer injury as a priority and do the fat loss as you can safely do so.

    When I am playing football (3 hour practices several times a week), I cannot lose weight at all without risking serious decrease in performance and/or injury.
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    Registered User FitGirl1958's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kfisherx View Post
    While I agree that SOME cardio is beneficial for weight loss under SOME circumstances, you are doing a heck of a lot more than SOME cardio. Once you start doing that amount of ss type work, it is very hard to achieve a balance of all the things you needed for fat loss while maintaining muscle. Most trainers recommend no more than 3 twenty minute sessions a week of cardio coupled with weight training for best results. At some point, you have to pick your priorities. If weight loss is your priority, then cut down the cardio and focus on becoming an expert with nutrition, calories/macros, etc. while doing your weight lifting program. If you LOVE to ride for that many hours each week, then feed that appropriately so that you do not suffer injury as a priority and do the fat loss as you can safely do so.

    When I am playing football (3 hour practices several times a week), I cannot lose weight at all without risking serious decrease in performance and/or injury.
    New to these forums but not to working out...

    OK I went over to the interview with Alan Aragon and where his says...

    "Cardio is grossly overrated, and is not an absolute necessity for everyone who wants to lean down. For the most part, a calorie deficit is a calorie deficit. Weight training can easily cause the cardiovascular adaptations that people seek through cardio, with the added benefit of supporting lean body mass & strength. I’m a strong proponent of doing the least amount of formal cardio as necessary to reach the goal, starting with zero."

    I agree with one exception. In the beginning, especially with women, cardio (or better HIIT which is not cardio even though too many put it in the cardio category) helps with fat loss only because the woman beginning is too weak to put in the weight lifts heavy enough with good form to produce the muscular and metabolic changes you get once you've built up strength.

    So a total body workout 3x per week plus 2x per week HIITs (I put ab workouts before the HIITs and take them out of the total body workout) is a great way for women to begin.

    Nancy
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    Originally Posted by FitGirl1958 View Post
    only because the woman beginning is too weak to put in the weight lifts heavy enough with good form to produce the muscular and metabolic changes you get once you've built up strength.
    With all due respect ... horse hockey.

    You're telling me that the overweight out of shape woman who picks up her 35lb toddler 20 times a day is "too weak" to lift weights properly? The woman who brings in bags of groceries weighing 20+ pounds each can't properly lift a couple of dumbbells and raise her heart rate? The woman who walks around each day on legs strong enough to carry an extra 20/50/even 100 lbs isn't strong enough to at the very least do leg presses, even if she doesn't quite have the coordination to squat or lunge?

    Sorry. Nope. Not buying that one. I lifted weights from day one - heavy weights and did it properly - because I had a trainer who didn't buy into the whole "you're too weak to do it right because you're a woman" BS. (And since you're new here, I'll point out that I started out at over 250lbs and extremely out of shape.)

    When you're new to weight lifting you make gains even if you're lifting poorly with bad form. Some newbies make more noticeable gains than those who have been doing it a while .. which is nice because it's helpful for motivation to see those changes so quickly. And hopefully if there is bad form, that situation is quickly corrected - which is should be if someone is coming here and reading this sticky (and others) and learning about proper lifting and finding the resources to learn how to do it right.

    I'm sad to see another woman pushing the "women are too weak" agenda. It's totally NOT TRUE.
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    Originally Posted by KaraPhoto View Post
    With all due respect ... horse hockey.

    You're telling me that the overweight out of shape woman who picks up her 35lb toddler 20 times a day is "too weak" to lift weights properly? The woman who brings in bags of groceries weighing 20+ pounds each can't properly lift a couple of dumbbells and raise her heart rate? The woman who walks around each day on legs strong enough to carry an extra 20/50/even 100 lbs isn't strong enough to at the very least do leg presses, even if she doesn't quite have the coordination to squat or lunge?

    Sorry. Nope. Not buying that one. I lifted weights from day one - heavy weights and did it properly - because I had a trainer who didn't buy into the whole "you're too weak to do it right because you're a woman" BS. (And since you're new here, I'll point out that I started out at over 250lbs and extremely out of shape.)

    When you're new to weight lifting you make gains even if you're lifting poorly with bad form. Some newbies make more noticeable gains than those who have been doing it a while .. which is nice because it's helpful for motivation to see those changes so quickly. And hopefully if there is bad form, that situation is quickly corrected - which is should be if someone is coming here and reading this sticky (and others) and learning about proper lifting and finding the resources to learn how to do it right.

    I'm sad to see another woman pushing the "women are too weak" agenda. It's totally NOT TRUE.
    Geez...

    I didn't say women can't lift heavy - I do and I enjoy it. I also push women to lift heavy. But your experience notwithstanding, the research tends to back the the concept that we need to establish neural pathways before we can maximize them.

    There is some excellent research offered in the TNT diet and other places to back this so while I fully back what works for you, YOUR gut feel does not necessarily translate to what works for everyone.

    Nancy

    P.S., If you didn't get soooo caught up in bashing my statement about working up to heavy lifting you'd see my point really was that HIIT has it's place in training, even cardio for the beginner. Alan's comments were that cardio was a waste of time and I agree that it stood for experienced lifters it didn't necessarily fit with the beginner's model.
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    I Train to Bring You Pain kfisherx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FitGirl1958 View Post
    Geez...

    I didn't say women can't lift heavy - I do and I enjoy it. I also push women to lift heavy. But your experience notwithstanding, the research tends to back the the concept that we need to establish neural pathways before we can maximize them.

    There is some excellent research offered in the TNT diet and other places to back this so while I fully back what works for you, YOUR gut feel does not necessarily translate to what works for everyone.

    Nancy
    Oh no please tell me you are not a trainer.....
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  30. #30
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    Is it just me, or does this link not work??

    Great post BTW!
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