Program how to: Bill Starr's Big 3 5x5 (NOT madcows)

[SeanWoodall]

How many threads on programs are you going to get into in order to bad mouth or not agree with the layout when you HAVE NOT RAN ANY OF THEM??????????????????

Get in the gym!!

I didnt bad mouth anything. I was curious as to why there was no direct lat work in this program. I dont have to run a program to critique it or ask questions about it. I'm sure this program is good for what its designed for I just dont understand why there isn't much if any lat work.

@ OP: Your saying that the clean works the lats? I looked up the exercise on exrx.net and it doesnt list any lat involvement. Also the bench press according to exrx.net doesnt work the lats. I'm confused by the programs lat work. Could you explain it?

[Farley1324]

I didnt bad mouth anything. I was curious as to why there was no direct lat work in this program. I dont have to run a program to critique it or ask questions about it. I'm sure this program is good for what its designed for I just dont understand why there isn't much if any lat work.

@ OP: Your saying that the clean works the lats? I looked up the exercise on exrx.net and it doesnt list any lat involvement. Also the bench press according to exrx.net doesnt work the lats. I'm confused by the programs lat work. Could you explain it?

Because you don't know what constitutes lat work?

Power Clean involves the lats. It is a balanced program, though I would always opt to use standing overhead press instead of medium bench

[SeanWoodall]

Because you don't know what constitutes lat work?

Exrx.net is a professional site that lists exercises and the muscles they work. While they may not list every muscle I doubt they would skip over such a large muscle as lats being worked in such a good exercise. Also power cleans dont target lats nor do lats seem they would act as a synergist for the movement (maybe a stabilizer). Either way it doesnt seem its going to work the lats to any appreciable degree. Now I think I have a legitimate question on the lat work in this program. I'm trying to learn from this so if you would please explain how a power clean works the lats?

[Farley1324]

See Figure 6-25 on page 190 of Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training, 2nd edition. Ripp gets into specifics. It dirctly and speficially illustrates and discusses Latissimus dorsi involvement in the clean

In TSSS Starr just says the involved muscles are: upper and lower leg, hip girdle, lower, middle and upper back, the upper arm and the forearms.

[SeanWoodall]

See Figure 6-25 on page 190 of Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training, 2nd edition. Ripp gets into specifics. It dirctly and speficially illustrates and discusses Latissimus dorsi involvement in the clean

In TSSS Starr just says the involved muscles are: upper and lower leg, hip girdle, lower, middle and upper back, the upper arm and the forearms.

Ok I'll check into it. I dont have a copy of it but the university library should have it. Thanks for the help.

Now my last question about this is what are Star's or your recommendations on direct core work for this program?

[Farley1324]

Ok I'll check into it. I dont have a copy of it but the university library should have it. Thanks for the help.

Now my last question about this is what are Star's or your recommendations on direct core work for this program?

Heavy compounds constitute direct ab work, not the least of which would be front squats and overhead presses when they are subbed in on the lesser days in place of back squats/bench.

As for targeting the abs, which is what I think you are really asking....Starr, in TSSS, includes incline situps and leg raises

[screwedgenetics]

If power cleans are so awesome why waste time doing squats,bench, and reg old powercleans? Just only do clean and jerk.

New Routine..The Big One by some random nobody.
Workout A Clean and Jerk
Workout B Clean and jerk
Rotate A and B every other day

[Anelace]

When i first started lifting i did a similar program to this "Big three 5x5" thing i followed it for 3 years when i first started my lifts were -
Bench-90
Squat-180
Powerclean-85

3 years later i started to get really bored of this routine but my numbers went up quite a bit -
Bench-240
Squat-430
Powerclean-225

This program works , but it gets old really fast!

[screwedgenetics]

When i first started lifting i did a similar program to this "Big three 5x5" thing i followed it for 3 years when i first started my lifts were -
Bench-90
Squat-180
Powerclean-85

3 years later i started to get really bored of this routine but my numbers went up quite a bit -
Bench-240
Squat-430
Powerclean-225

This program works , but it gets old really fast!

What is your Deadlift at? Just curious

[BillStarr1980]

Good thread this. Hopefully someone will actually take the time to read it - and maybe even be inspired to buy the book (which is great).

Not to reopen cleans vs. deads, but I don't think you can say Starr is "wrong". However, I think you can disagree with his assessment. Starr famously had his powerlifters clean in stead of deadlifting (hence the statement: Want to deadlift more? Dont deadlift!). If you disagree then more power to you, there are plenty of coaches who use the deadlift (Rippetoe fx). But Starr got plenty of people very, very strong without it.

In any case - the H/L/M-principle works with any (compound) excercise you'll throw at it. Although I'd think deadlifts might be a bit much to do 3x/week. If you dont like to clean you can use clean hi-pulls in stead, fx. I think including an explosive movement - apart from being fun - is useful to most of us, who want to be more athletic, even if we dont play football.

Farley has explained the basic template, and even some of the variants, very well. So I just thought I'd throw my favourite version out there:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength...s/manrodt4.htm

[Farley1324]

Farley has explained the basic template, and even some of the variants, very well. So I just thought I'd throw my favourite version out there:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength...s/manrodt4.htm

Every time I read that template I wonder where the overhead press went.

Sub it in place of the incline?

[BillStarr1980]

Every time I read that template I wonder where the overhead press went.

Sub it in place of the incline?

That's what I'd do, and have done, before. However Starr swore by the Incline for football players (and this is a template given to footballers). Something about the angle of the press and the angle of pressing against an opponent.

I read somewhere that he'd actually preferred either the Incline or the press as one of the Big Three, but equipment limitations and common "wisdom" made him choose the flat bench as it would most easily be accepted.

EDIT: It should be noted that I've always been weak as **** on the pressing excercises. So it's hard to tell if a stronger guy would have problems recovering when using Press for the light day. In that case I'd move Press to Friday, and keep Incline on Wednesday.

[Farley1324]

That's what I'd do, and have done, before. However Starr swore by the Incline for football players (and this is a template given to footballers). Something about the angle of the press and the angle of pressing against an opponent.

I read somewhere that he'd actually preferred either the Incline or the press as one of the Big Three, but equipment limitations and common "wisdom" made him choose the flat bench as it would most easily be accepted.

EDIT: It should be noted that I've always been weak as **** on the pressing excercises. So it's hard to tell if a stronger guy would have problems recovering when using Press for the light day. In that case I'd move Press to Friday, and keep Incline on Wednesday.

You are correct, and it is easy to picture. If you are on your feet and leaning into the guy in front of you the angle of your arms relative to your torso will be closer to an incline bench angle than the other two. The press will be closer then the bench press. The unique advatnage to the standing press, though, is that you must support and control your body plus the loaded bar without aid of a bench.

[Anelace]

What is your Deadlift at? Just curious

I don't know, i don't deadlift. Ive tried a couple times , but it feels like im going to injure something or screw up my back the times ive tried DLing. If someone taught me the proper form etc, it would be around 425 right now.

[BillStarr1980]

You are correct, and it is easy to picture. If you are on your feet and leaning into the guy in front of you the angle of your arms relative to your torso will be closer to an incline bench angle than the other two. The press will be closer then the bench press. The unique advatnage to the standing press, though, is that you must support and control your body plus the loaded bar without aid of a bench.

No arguments there. I also like Rippetoes argument about working the posterior side of the shoulder (i.e. Press) helps maintain balance and prevent (rotator cuff) injury, caused by only working the anterior side (Bench).

Getting abit off-topic now I guess, I just have a couple of friends with BIG bench ## and they have no end of troubles with their shoulder, which I think is related to their weak/non-existant presses.

[Farley1324]

No arguments there. I also like Rippetoes argument about working the posterior side of the shoulder (i.e. Press) helps maintain balance and prevent (rotator cuff) injury, caused by only working the anterior side (Bench).

Getting abit off-topic now I guess, I just have a couple of friends with BIG bench ## and they have no end of troubles with their shoulder, which I think is related to their weak/non-existant presses.

That and chinups. Ripp writes that bench needs to be balanced with chins/weighted chins and press.

[rdferguson]

If power cleans are so awesome why waste time doing squats,bench, and reg old powercleans? Just only do clean and jerk.

New Routine..The Big One by some random nobody.
Workout A Clean and Jerk
Workout B Clean and jerk
Rotate A and B every other day

1) Read Farley's sig for quotes on the power clean.

2) You could very well build a program around C+J, but it definitely takes time to learn the movements. In particular, front squats are hard enough to learn on their own, let alone learning to jump into a front squat, and the same applies to the jerk part of the exercise. Even if you wanted to just do C+J, it would be wise to spend time developing muscle control in all the seperate parts of the exercise before bringing it all together, and it would also be wise to use those same exercises to supplement the main lift. In any case, the goal of the program isn't to train an Olympic weightlifter, even if an Olympic lift is used (and considered very good for the sake of the program).

[screwedgenetics]

agreed that deads should not be used 3x per week, but I think they should be done more than 0. Once again I don't care for limiting yourself to only 3 major movements.That being said, I can see why this would be a great routine for a high school football team or smaller college.

[BillStarr1980]

agreed that deads should not be used 3x per week, but I think they should be done more than 0. Once again I don't care for limiting yourself to only 3 major movements.That being said, I can see why this would be a great routine for a high school football team or smaller college.

I guess the difference is your general use of "deads should be done more than 0". It's contextual, as you also note about the HS/College football team.

I also like deadlifting, especially as my cleans are hampered by a botched wrist. It is interesting, though, that Starr trained some very good deadlifters - without them deadlifting until a few weeks before competition.

Just shows there are several ways that lead to Rome.

[screwedgenetics]

I guess the difference is your general use of "deads should be done more than 0". It's contextual, as you also note about the HS/College football team.

I also like deadlifting, especially as my cleans are hampered by a botched wrist. It is interesting, though, that Starr trained some very good deadlifters - without them deadlifting until a few weeks before competition.

Just shows there are several ways that lead to Rome.

I am not talking about using deads specifically for competition or football. This program is specifically set up for football players, High School and Smaller Colleges. I thought the disagreement was that farley and you believe this routine could be transferred over as an overall strength routine, not a sport specific routine. I disagree with Starr that DL are not important and I also disagree that powercleans alone effectively hit your back. I would agree somewhat with Rippletoe that adding in deads (wider grip) would activate upper back muscles more, still not enough IMO though. It would be like saying Squats hit your core enough so no need to train your core(yes I know some ppl don't train their core but I am not talking about seeing abs thru low BF I am talking about a strong total core).

[Farley1324]

agreed that deads should not be used 3x per week, but I think they should be done more than 0. Once again I don't care for limiting yourself to only 3 major movements.That being said, I can see why this would be a great routine for a high school football team or smaller college.

Which is why you sub overhead presses for medium bench.

I am not talking about using deads specifically for competition or football. This program is specifically set up for football players, High School and Smaller Colleges. I thought the disagreement was that farley and you believe this routine could be transferred over as an overall strength routine, not a sport specific routine. I disagree with Starr that DL are not important and I also disagree that powercleans alone effectively hit your back. I would agree somewhat with Rippletoe that adding in deads (wider grip) would activate upper back muscles more, still not enough IMO though. It would be like saying Squats hit your core enough so no need to train your core(yes I know some ppl don't train their core but I am not talking about seeing abs thru low BF I am talking about a strong total core).

We have established that you disagree with Starr. That's fine. Don't do this program. It does not need discussed fruther in this thread.

[adoboandryce]

great write-up farley. i definitely got my learn on. sticky-worthy.

[Farley1324]

great write-up farley. i definitely got my learn on. sticky-worthy.

I don't think many people will follow it, though. Even with front squats and overhead press that's "only" five main excercises. The lack of movements that directly target the lats and biceps (curls, rows, chinups, pullups) turn off a lot of bodybuilding types.

I am considering running it myself. I used this template for the press before, and as you know I went back to Practical Programming last week to make up for my time off, and when I go back to intermediate programming (soon) this is a possibility.

[adoboandryce]

I don't think many people will follow it, though. Even with front squats and overhead press that's "only" five main excercises. The lack of movements that directly target the lats and biceps (curls, rows, chinups, pullups) turn off a lot of bodybuilding types.

I am considering running it myself. I used this template for the press before, and as you know I went back to Practical Programming last week to make up for my time off, and when I go back to intermediate programming (soon) this is a possibility.

yeah it's not a horrible option. sounds totally effective. i found a good stride with texas method so far on my push exercises, but i think my squats need something new. BS 5x5 sounds like a possibility for me.

[all pro]

I can't help but notice that this program is conspicuously absent around here. I do not recall seeing it in any of the stickies and it rarely, if ever, comes up in conversation.

ARE YOU FRIGGEN KIDDING ME????

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=809027 My 5x5 thread

[Farley1324]

ARE YOU FRIGGEN KIDDING ME????

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=809027 My 5x5 thread

I guess I will blame the ambiguous thread title.....

[GuyJin]

I guess I will blame the ambiguous thread title.....

--------

Just as long as it's not an "ambiguously gay duo" title.

Sorry, bad joke...

Anyway, Farley and All Pro, glad you both put up this thread and resurrected the old thread, respectively. My two yen, valueless on today's market: Since Starr came from an Olympic lifting background, even though he did benches and got pretty good at them, he didn't like them as much as the incline, as the incline tended to hit the front delts more in his opinion and was closer to the overhead press in its execution. He also stated that benching too much--"too much"--could stiffen up the shoulders and prevent the flexibilty needed to perform the overhead press.

I think, for bodybuilding purposes, if you wanted to run this programme, then sub in the overhead on light day instead of doing inclines, or switch from bench to incline on Mondays and Fridays, and do presses on Wednesday, and then do the opposite the following week. That would--more or less--ensure a bit more balance between chest and shoulders. Perhaps not THE best way, but a good way to stave off plateauing for a while.

[all pro]

--------

Just as long as it's not an "ambiguously gay duo" title.

Sorry, bad joke...

Anyway, Farley and All Pro, glad you both put up this thread and resurrected the old thread, respectively. My two yen, valueless on today's market: Since Starr came from an Olympic lifting background, even though he did benches and got pretty good at them, he didn't like them as much as the incline, as the incline tended to hit the front delts more in his opinion and was closer to the overhead press in its execution. He also stated that benching too much--"too much"--could stiffen up the shoulders and prevent the flexibilty needed to perform the overhead press.

I think, for bodybuilding purposes, if you wanted to run this programme, then sub in the overhead on light day instead of doing inclines, or switch from bench to incline on Mondays and Fridays, and do presses on Wednesday, and then do the opposite the following week. That would--more or less--ensure a bit more balance between chest and shoulders. Perhaps not THE best way, but a good way to stave off plateauing for a while.

One of his set ups that you'll find listed in my thread uses bench on Monday, incline on Wednesday and over head on Friday.

[GuyJin]

AP,

Yeah, I hear you. I was just thinking in terms of overall balance. Starr always pushed for strength increases as well as variety for the more advanced trainees. You are correct, though. Thank you.

[Farley1324]

More/better sources

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post204134671

http://stronglifts.com/bill-starrs-s...the-big-three/