Burqa Blowout

[mehdi84]

RT's crosstalk discusses the burqa ban

[asiya-sparkles]

It seems to me that the idea of choice is being denied to women based on what people perceive may be thought of us! It is ridiculous to actually go to the expense & time of proposing & passing laws for a piece of fabric that has been politicised by the politicians not by the women wearing the face veil. Why do the choices of the women themselves remain irrelevant?

Face veil is as much a freedom & right as not wearing it!

What is truly oppressive is that women should be disempowered in society from moving through society, participating in society, from using public services etc... because they have a piece of fabric covering their face. Women who have committed to covering the face will prefer to avoid as much as is practicable interaction & integration since it can no longer be on their terms. How does that benefit anyone?

Society seems to prefer to confine a woman to her home in order to feel at ease with itself. That isn't tolerance & it isn't freedom.

And the sisters who say how should women have the choice to cover be a right... or part of freedom, denies the reality that the women of the sahabah (first generation wore the face veil) denies the intelligence & freedom of the converts to Islam who have independantly chosen to cover their face.

If any person, man or woman chooses to cover any part of their body whatsoever, it is okay with me. I'd rather see laws being proposed to tackle issues that affect people everyday.

[asiya-sparkles]

I'd have more respect if these women were fighting for the rights of women being assaulted and insulted everyday of their lives. Regardless of their religion, ethnicity etc...

[TimDF]

Not just the burqa should be banned, but bandanas, masks, etc. No matter what religion or race you are there is no reason to cover your face in public. Do it on your own time.

[Z06]

I'd have more respect if these women were fighting for the rights of women being assaulted and insulted everyday of their lives. Regardless of their religion, ethnicity etc...

You really think the women that completely cover themselves up are doing it by 100% free choice? I have a strong feeling there are 3 pressures that are causing them to do it: religious pressure, spousal/male pressure, and societal pressure. We have Muslims in America, how come I never see any Muslim women in America wearing the burqa? We don't have any laws prohibiting it here, so they are obviously free to wear it. Yet I don't see any? I even live in a very diverse city, and I definitely see Muslims daily.

There are obviously other factors that come in to play that are the reason why women wear them. I don't think women truly wish to wear them, maybe they do wish to wear them but only out of fear of backlash.

Furthermore, it IS a safety issue. There have been robberies that are committed using these burqas as disguises. What are you supposed to tell law enforcement? "Well, they were completely covered from head to toe, so I don't have a clue what they look like..."

[Scuba19]

Here's a thought: If you immigrate, assimilate!

"When in Rome..."

[ElHombre]

weak arguments are weak.

You really think the women that completely cover themselves up are doing it by 100% free choice? I have a strong feeling there are 3 pressures that are causing them to do it: religious pressure, spousal/male pressure, and societal pressure.
We have Muslims in America, how come I never see any Muslim women in America wearing the burqa? We don't have any laws prohibiting it here, so they are obviously free to wear it. Yet I don't see any? I even live in a very diverse city, and I definitely see Muslims daily.

trying to pass off anecdote as evidence for the premise of a faulty implied argument. this seems to be: Americans have full freedom of choice; the Muslims I see in America don't wear the burqa; therefore they don't wear the burqa because they choose not to, and those Muslims that do (those not in America) do so because they're forced to.

besides the anecdotal status meriting we throw your argument out the window, it doesn't follow that even if the Muslims you see don't happen to be wearing a burqa that those who do wear one don't do it out of free choice.

There are obviously other factors that come in to play that are the reason why women wear them.

indeed. replace "them" with any piece of clothing, from burqas to bikinis. this isn't a point just about burqas.

I don't think women truly wish to wear them, maybe they do wish to wear them but only out of fear of backlash.

you have no idea why an individual wearer wears it. no idea. and that last clause of your sentence makes no sense, btw.
Western women have different but equally strong pressures to dress and groom a specific way. Western women cater themselves to be sexually desirable to the point of self-mutilation (breast, lip, genital surgeries). in some sense, wearers of veils can be more free and less oppressed in that act than any Western woman in mainstream culture.

Furthermore, it IS a safety issue. There have been robberies that are committed using these burqas as disguises. What are you supposed to tell law enforcement? "Well, they were completely covered from head to toe, so I don't have a clue what they look like..."

evidence of burqas used in robberies? or are you just postulating that they could be? guess what, most robberies are committed with pantyhose masking the robber and often make use of guns! we should ban all things that could be used to rob banks. this is a very silly point you have.

if anything, Western clothing and socially demanded upkeep of women has more personal safety issues: high heels, intentional exposure to UV, cosmetics full of possibly hazardous chemicals. these are bad for women's health. and as one political philosopher (Nussbaum) has pointed out, the burqa actually protects women against UV rays and the sun. (does this all sound stupid? well, you're the one who pushed the discussion to such absurd extremes as "it's unsafe")

[Z06]

weak arguments are weak.



trying to pass off anecdote as evidence for the premise of a faulty implied argument. this seems to be: Americans have full freedom of choice; the Muslims I see in America don't wear the burqa; therefore they don't wear the burqa because they choose not to, and those Muslims that do (those not in America) do so because they're forced to.

besides the anecdotal status meriting we throw your argument out the window, it doesn't follow that even if the Muslims you see don't happen to be wearing a burqa that those who do wear one don't do it out of free choice.



indeed. replace "them" with any piece of clothing, from burqas to bikinis. this isn't a point just about burqas.



you have no idea why an individual wearer wears it. no idea. and that last clause of your sentence makes no sense, btw.
Western women have different but equally strong pressures to dress and groom a specific way. Western women cater themselves to be sexually desirable to the point of self-mutilation (breast, lip, genital surgeries). in some sense, wearers of veils can be more free and less oppressed in that act than any Western woman in mainstream culture.



evidence of burqas used in robberies? or are you just postulating that they could be? guess what, most robberies are committed with pantyhose masking the robber and often make use of guns! we should ban all things that could be used to rob banks. this is a very silly point you have.

if anything, Western clothing and socially demanded upkeep of women has more personal safety issues: high heels, intentional exposure to UV, cosmetics full of possibly hazardous chemicals. these are bad for women's health. and as one political philosopher (Nussbaum) has pointed out, the burqa actually protects women against UV rays and the sun. (does this all sound stupid? well, you're the one who pushed the discussion to such absurd extremes as "it's unsafe")

I don't care enough about this topic to come up with a long retort, but since you insinuated that I am making up the robbery part:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100210-...-france-muslim

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-stolen.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3745402

I especially like the last one: "Authorities in North Carolina don't know whether they are looking for a man or a woman in the search for a burqa-wearing bandit who walked into a bank Tuesday and pointed a gun at a teller before exiting with a bag full of money."

See the difference? They don't even know if they should be looking for a man or a woman in this robbery. Do you see how that presents a massive problem to law enforcement?

The rest of your reply deals with reasons why women wear them. Since you said I have no idea why they wear them, you don't either. So in effect I could be right and you could be wrong, and vice versa. No point in debating that then.

I lol'ed at "self-mutilation". I liked your use of a pejorative to describe generally safe cosmetic procedures.

edit: The post below me has some good points too: while UV overexposure is obviously bad, not getting enough sunlight is also bad for your health

[HugeJackedman]

It seems to me that the idea of choice is being denied to women based on what people perceive may be thought of us! It is ridiculous to actually go to the expense & time of proposing & passing laws for a piece of fabric that has been politicised by the politicians not by the women wearing the face veil. Why do the choices of the women themselves remain irrelevant?

Face veil is as much a freedom & right as not wearing it!

w w w .dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1296132/The-burka-empowering-women-You-mad-minister.html
"We Muslims who came here wanted the freedom that Britain's proud history of democracy was renowned for. We wanted better education for our children and to live and pray in peace in a country which, for all its faults, gives us civil rights and equality between the sexes.
To check out the shrouded sisters who tell me they feel ' beautifully' liberated under a veil, I tried wearing a burka for a day - and threw it off in a couple of hours, wheezing asthmatically.
I felt wiped out, a nobody - lifeless and voiceless. A Pakistani shopkeeper said I made him nervous because he couldn't see my face. I saw others shrinking away from me - and I could understand their reactions.
It is a view that has provoked fury and warnings from veiled women, who self-righteously tell me that uncovered Muslim females will end up in hell unless they repent. Women like me, they warn, are 'western whores' who should be thrown on the eternal fire, along with our mothers.
Of course, many veiled Muslim women argue that, far from being forced to wear burkas by ruthless husbands, they do so out of choice. And I have to take them at their word. But it is also very apparent that many women are forced behind the veil.
A number of them have turned up at my door seeking refuge from their fathers, mothers, brothers and in-laws - men brain-washed by religious leaders who use physical and mental abuse to compel the girls to cover up. It started with the headscarf, then went to the full cloak and now it's the total veil.
A good number of these women are warned of the wrath of Allah unless they succumb to life behind the veil; they are told by their fathers they are whores; they are told they will have no friends in the community - and worse still - end up spinsters.
And so these women do wear burkas against their will. I see them in restaurants and parks, unable to eat properly or feel the sun and breeze on their skin
Today, younger and younger girls are having their hair and small bodies covered up. They are learning the first step to personal incarceration. By the time of puberty, they can choose nothing else.
Muslim parents can and do argue that the rapid spread of these customs is a result of their attempt to protect their girls from the tarty, sexualised clothes of Western culture, where mini-skirts and mascara are increasingly worn by pre-pubescent children.
By the time they have reached adulthood, covered-up women have all but accepted the idea that they are evil temptresses. This is a notion that grossly insults Muslim men as well - for it assumes they are sexual beasts who cannot contain themselves if they see a hint of female flesh.
The Koran says explicitly there can be no compulsion in Islam. Mind control is a subtle form of compulsion. I'd argue that too many burka'd Muslim females are exerting a choice they can't not make.
Nowhere in the Holy Book are females asked to cover their faces. A garment used by upper-class Byzantine people to distance themselves from hoi polloi was adopted by the Prophets' wives to stop supplicants and enemies harassing them. That's all it was."



h t t p://womenagainstshariah.blogspot.com/2010/01/sarkozy-says-burka-not-welcome-in.html
"The burka not only causes Vitamin D deficiency, but people cannot be identified when they wear it. It is no secret that it has been used by Islamists carrying out terror attacks to hide their intentions. Moreover, this is an oppressive garment and women should not be wearing it in western society. There are other methods of preserving modesty if one wishes. Sarkozy is absolutely correct stating that such an oppressive and potentially harmful thing is unwelcome in secular society."

[illriginalized]

Not just the burqa should be banned, but bandanas, masks, etc. No matter what religion or race you are there is no reason to cover your face in public. Do it on your own time.

I guess you don't believe in freedoms and rights. What's next? Ban dresses that go past the knees?

[HugeJackedman]

I guess you don't believe in freedoms and rights. What's next? Ban dresses that go past the knees?

Whats the matter Muslim - why wont you address what your fellow women cultists have to say about it^^^?
They say it's humiliating, uncomfortable, and causes vitamin D deficiencies.
All that just to accommodate the paranoid male cultists so they wont have teh dirty thoughts?
HAHAHAHAH! Retards.

[Z06]

I guess you don't believe in freedoms and rights. What's next? Ban dresses that go past the knees?

He specifically said face.

[HugeJackedman]

Is it rally that hard to see that religion was man's first attempt at civilization (controlling themselves and not acting like animals)?
Islam is the result of that attempt and was never let to evolve which is why it seems so retarded to dress like a Ninja in a 120 degree dessert just so men wont see them, froth at the mouth and run up to rape them like they did 2,000 years ago when we were all practically cavemen.
How bout Islam grow the fook up? Maybe then you wont have to Jihad against the world dressed like Ninjas? I mean come on - these people still wipe their a$$es with their BARE HANDS and then turn around and eat with their bare hands, then call us "filthy".
I mean, come ON.

[illriginalized]

He specifically said face.

Oh I was thinking he was trying to say the Hijab should be illegal, ya I don't like the niqab and burka.

[HugeJackedman]

Oh I was thinking he was trying to say the Hijab should be illegal, ya I don't like the niqab and burka.

In all seriousness, as a Muslim are you allowed to not like the Burka?

[Bluerain]

They're using the words "Freedom" and "Women's Choice" while deflecting from the real issue.

Also.. Wearing full covering from head to toe insults western women who fought for women
rights so as not to be treated as a sex object and for equality. These women wouldn't even have rights in their own homeland and don't even think twice or give a shiat about the western women who fought long and hard for these rights.

In case you didn't know ..Freedom and women choice doesn't and never did include covering up your head/face so you won't be thought of as a whore.


Go ahead and delude yourselves when using the terms womens choice/rights because
all your doing is setting womens rights back 900 years . It's offensive to real women who fought for womens rights !

Go ahead tell me the reason to cover your face is being modest but we all know you mean you don't want to look like a whore. We all know that's the mantra among muslim men/women ( We hear it on this board all the time) and you muslim women fall for it and are afraid deep down inside of much worst because you are too brainwashed to even know it. The funny thing is the muslim women are fighting the battle that muslim men want and they don't even have to lift a finger because they have you so brainwashed they don't have to lift a finger or open their mouths. The muslim men have you right where they want you ..LOL What a fckng joke ! .


Again..Freedom and women choice/rights doesn't and never did include covering up your head/face so you won't be thought of as a whore and stop insulting western women with this absurd nonsense. So stop using the freedom /rights laws that you had nothing to do with and insulting western women at the same time with this offensive crap !

You want to cover your body in a tent dress go right ahead I have no problem with that but there's No Sane Reason to want to cover your head and face..None !.

[illriginalized]

In all seriousness, as a Muslim are you allowed to not like the Burka?

Personally... covering ones face (regardless of gender) is pretty much stripping away their identity. Yes personality, intelligence, respect, and morals are much more important than physical appearance.. but in my personal opinion I do not agree with the covering of the face.


If I'm considered some sort of pseudo-Muslim or fake Muslim for this belief, then whatever, fact of the matter is, I don't believe in stripping someone's identity... but I do strongly believe that there's more to a person than just physical appearance.

[asiya-sparkles]

Not just the burqa should be banned, but bandanas, masks, etc. No matter what religion or race you are there is no reason to cover your face in public. Do it on your own time.

How is walking along a street not 'your own time'?

[asiya-sparkles]

They're using the words "Freedom" and "Women's Choice" while deflecting from the real issue.

Also.. Wearing full covering from head to toe insults western women who fought for women
rights so as not to be treated as a sex object and for equality. These women wouldn't even have rights in their own homeland and don't even think twice or give a shiat about the western women who fought long and hard for these rights.

In case you didn't know ..Freedom and women choice doesn't and never did include covering up your head/face so you won't be thought of as a whore.


Go ahead and delude yourselves when using the terms womens choice/rights because
all your doing is setting womens rights back 900 years . It's offensive to real women who fought for womens rights !

Go ahead tell me the reason to cover your face is being modest but we all know you mean you don't want to look like a whore. We all know that's the mantra among muslim men/women ( We hear it on this board all the time) and you muslim women fall for it and are afraid deep down inside of much worst because you are too brainwashed to even know it. The funny thing is the muslim women are fighting the battle that muslim men want and they don't even have to lift a finger because they have you so brainwashed they don't have to lift a finger or open their mouths. The muslim men have you right where they want you ..LOL What a fckng joke ! .


Again..Freedom and women choice/rights doesn't and never did include covering up your head/face so you won't be thought of as a whore and stop insulting western women with this absurd nonsense. So stop using the freedom /rights laws that you had nothing to do with and insulting western women at the same time with this offensive crap !

You want to cover your body in a tent dress go right ahead I have no problem with that but there's No Sane Reason to want to cover your head and face..None !.

Spare me...what women today have 'fought' for rights? & how can you claim women have fought for rights to choose...then complain when we do?

And how pathetic that any woman should now feel disempowered because other women cover their faces....that is the most weak excuse i ever heard! I'd say if a woman acts like a whore -regardless of how she dresses she is one & regardless of what society does around her, she'll still be/feel like a whore. And no, I am not labelling all non-muslim women as whores - far from it. I think the average misc poster has that unsavoury attitude though.

No woman should have to give up her right (& why the hell do you get to demand the right to see my face anyway?) to conceal her face in order for something to appear to be what it is not. You cannot 'liberate' a woman by oppressing her. Argument is just dumb!

Headscarves have been worn even throughout liberal modern history, caps, hats etc... all cover hair. Its a real double standard to say its okay to cover the face if attending a funeral (hats with veils...) or cover if you are a nun, but oh forbid that you choose to cover for your own personal reasons that have zero to do with anyone else... my face isn't a part of me that is public property...its still forms part of my personal space that I can cover, enhance with make-up, alter by surgery (like that isn't oppressive...slicing the face to conform to modern ideals of beauty...) protect from the sun, expose to the sun as part of the right to exercise my personal choice!

Also.. Wearing full covering from head to toe insults western women who fought for women
rights so as not to be treated as a sex object and for equality. These women wouldn't even have rights in their own homeland and don't even think twice or give a shiat about the western women who fought long and hard for these rights. What an ironic joke!

[asiya-sparkles]

Personally... covering ones face (regardless of gender) is pretty much stripping away their identity. Yes personality, intelligence, respect, and morals are much more important than physical appearance.. but in my personal opinion I do not agree with the covering of the face.


If I'm considered some sort of pseudo-Muslim or fake Muslim for this belief, then whatever, fact of the matter is, I don't believe in stripping someone's identity... but I do strongly believe that there's more to a person than just physical appearance.

Perhaps if you ask sisters who cover, you will be shocked to find that it is part of our 'identity'. As soon as anyone decides there are limits to how someone can express themselves then it is an infraction of rights.

Believe it or not, when any sister covers her face...she didn't first of all take into consideration 'society', just as when a western woman who wears a micro-mini skirt, high heels & goes out at weekends to indulge in one night stands also doesn't taske into account the women who fought for the right to not be treated as a chattel merely available for sexual fulfillment...

Both women made a conscious choice that is based on what makes them happy. That is what that freedom that was fought for was for.

[asiya-sparkles]

Whats the matter Muslim - why wont you address what your fellow women cultists have to say about it^^^?
They say it's humiliating, uncomfortable, and causes vitamin D deficiencies.
All that just to accommodate the paranoid male cultists so they wont have teh dirty thoughts?
HAHAHAHAH! Retards.

Actually, I know a sister who was accused of having inferior breastmilk due to covering her face (vit D deficiency) except that lo & behold, when the results of the blood test returned she did not have a vitamin D deficiency... people can make claims based on only having part of the picture can't they?

Just because there are muslim women who like to expose their breast area, arms, uncover their hair etc...stating that women who cover would like to be the same, it doesn't make it so. The majority of muslim women who veil in Europe are reverts who gave up the style of dress these so called 'emancipated' sisters think we crave.

It really helps to listen to what sisters who cover actually have to say on the subject...

[illriginalized]

Perhaps if you ask sisters who cover, you will be shocked to find that it is part of our 'identity'. As soon as anyone decides there are limits to how someone can express themselves then it is an infraction of rights.

Believe it or not, when any sister covers her face...she didn't first of all take into consideration 'society', just as when a western woman who wears a micro-mini skirt, high heels & goes out at weekends to indulge in one night stands also doesn't taske into account the women who fought for the right to not be treated as a chattel merely available for sexual fulfillment...

Both women made a conscious choice that is based on what makes them happy. That is what that freedom that was fought for was for.

I don't mean to argue with you, rather to clarify something here; when you say, "it is part of their (Muslim sister(s)) identity", do you mean in the sense as representing Islam? Or that it is literally a part of their personal identity?

The only reason I ask, is because lets say there's a group of wives and husbands, having a family/friend gathering, how does anyone distinguish between the women, other than speaking their names out loud?

If it's personal identity, something unique to them and them only, what exactly makes their wardrobe unique enough to easily be distinguished?

[asiya-sparkles]

You really think the women that completely cover themselves up are doing it by 100% free choice? I have a strong feeling there are 3 pressures that are causing them to do it: religious pressure, spousal/male pressure, and societal pressure. We have Muslims in America, how come I never see any Muslim women in America wearing the burqa? We don't have any laws prohibiting it here, so they are obviously free to wear it. Yet I don't see any? I even live in a very diverse city, and I definitely see Muslims daily.

There are obviously other factors that come in to play that are the reason why women wear them. I don't think women truly wish to wear them, maybe they do wish to wear them but only out of fear of backlash.

Furthermore, it IS a safety issue. There have been robberies that are committed using these burqas as disguises. What are you supposed to tell law enforcement? "Well, they were completely covered from head to toe, so I don't have a clue what they look like..."

I cover. I do so only because I want to. My husband has no say in the matter.

The majority of muslim women do not cover...which is what makes the expense etc of passing laws & villifying women who do even more inexplicable really, doesn't it?

As for coerscion etc... common laws that are already in place can tackle that side of things.

Domestic violence which is rife amongst all cultures & classes & is literally killing women & children every week is more relevant and pertinent to womens' rights than a piece of fabric - yes.

[asiya-sparkles]

I don't mean to argue with you, rather to clarify something here; when you say, "it is part of their (Muslim sister(s)) identity", do you mean in the sense as representing Islam? Or that it is literally a part of their personal identity?

The only reason I ask, is because lets say there's a group of wives and husbands, having a family/friend gathering, how does anyone distinguish between the women, other than speaking their names out loud?

If it's personal identity, something unique to them and them only, what exactly makes their wardrobe unique enough to easily be distinguished?

Literally part of the personal identity & is also integral to the islamic identity of the woman too...it is worn for the sake of Allah (and I don't think that any man has the right to decide how a woman chooses to observe her worship).

As for gatherings ... presumably the husband knows what outfit his wife donned, her shape, her individual mannerisms etc..& obviously her voice, if socialising together it is very likely that in an indoor setting the sisters are in a seperate room anyway enjoying 'girl chat' and the brothers are together enjoying presumably 'bro chat' (so the veil is lifted). In mixed gatherings for ilm etc...it doesn't matter..but be sure the wife still recognises her hubby and for the most part he still recognises her

[BIGNFIT]

Personally... covering ones face (regardless of gender) is pretty much stripping away their identity. Yes personality, intelligence, respect, and morals are much more important than physical appearance.. but in my personal opinion I do not agree with the covering of the face.


If I'm considered some sort of pseudo-Muslim or fake Muslim for this belief, then whatever, fact of the matter is, I don't believe in stripping someone's identity... but I do strongly believe that there's more to a person than just physical appearance.

Read on my PM plz.

[nick187]

The Burqa, the face-veil or the Ninja Mask has no place in Islam. covering the face is a purely cultural matter and is specific to some regions of the Islamic world and which later on traveled to other places.

In this day and age the Ninja Mask poses a serious security risk and in all frankness it is scary.

[asiya-sparkles]

The Burqa, the face-veil or the Ninja Mask has no place in Islam. covering the face is a purely cultural matter and is specific to some regions of the Islamic world and which later on traveled to other places.

In this day and age the Ninja Mask poses a serious security risk and in all frankness it is scary.

Actually regardless of personal preference, the face veil does have a legitimate place in Islam, not least because the wives of the Prophet(saw) wore them alomg with the muslim sisters of that generation.

The security risk is hardly credible. Think to any event that involved the burqa?

[nick187]

Actually regardless of personal preference, the face veil does have a legitimate place in Islam, not least because the wives of the Prophet(saw) wore them alomg with the muslim sisters of that generation.

The security risk is hardly credible. Think to any event that involved the burqa?

I can't speak for the wives of the prophet and the evidence to suggest they did indeed cover their faces are partial and based on weak hadiths. Generally Muslims follow the Quran and no where does it say a woman needs to cover her face. Hadiths and here say can never contradict the Quran.

As for the security risks they are indeed legitimate and real. Humans best interact with others when they are able to see the face of the person they are dealing with. Suicide bombers usually disguise as females in full clothing to enter religious gatherings or other crowded places.

[asiya-sparkles]

I can't speak for the wives of the prophet and the evidence to suggest they did indeed cover their faces are partial and based on weak hadiths. Generally Muslims follow the Quran and no where does it say a woman needs to cover her face. Hadiths and here say can never contradict the Quran.

As for the security risks they are indeed legitimate and real. Humans best interact with others when they are able to see the face of the person they are dealing with. Suicide bombers usually disguise as females in full clothing to enter religious gatherings or other crowded places.

I would certainly not say the evidences are weak in regard to covering - regardless both the evidence to cover the face or not are considered valid. I.E I agree that both stances are valid.

I have not seen footage in papers of alleged suicide bombers in the west wearing burqas,on the contrary, guys wearing backpacks? In muslim countries this may have been the case...but you can't legislate for those lands.

[illriginalized]

Literally part of the personal identity & is also integral to the islamic identity of the woman too...it is worn for the sake of Allah (and I don't think that any man has the right to decide how a woman chooses to observe her worship).

As for gatherings ... presumably the husband knows what outfit his wife donned, her shape, her individual mannerisms etc..& obviously her voice, if socialising together it is very likely that in an indoor setting the sisters are in a seperate room anyway enjoying 'girl chat' and the brothers are together enjoying presumably 'bro chat' (so the veil is lifted). In mixed gatherings for ilm etc...it doesn't matter..but be sure the wife still recognises her hubby and for the most part he still recognises her

Understood. And you're right on a woman's right to cover herself however she feels. If a woman decided to wear a Burqa, I wouldn't judge her nor tell her to uncover her face. That is none of my business.

Read on my PM plz.

I did