soy protein combining question...

[ae123]

i like soy protein. it's healthy and everything else that it is i like too.

i've never put too much thought into my diet but i've been training hard all along and lately i've been wondering if i should be paying a bit closer attention.

i've got a grip on most of the things i think i need to know. i thought maybe someone would be willing to share some knowledge on the subject of protein complimenting or could point me to a good resource for learning more about it.

i'm most interested, at present, in combining a soy protein, garden variety i suppose, with other types of protein...rice protein perhaps or just plain milk.

any help would be appreciated.

[determined4000]

soy protein is going to be higher quality than a rice, or pea

better amino profile, digestibility from what I know

Milk, egg, whey, casein would all be better
If you drink milk, why not use one of these?

[ae123]

no, no. i was not implying that i was vegetarian. i eat pretty much anything palatable. i guess i'm most interested in the optimal amino acid ratio, if there is one. i've read that egg is the closest to it but i don't the eat yolks, so that would change the numbers a bit. then milk, meats and so on. i can do the calculations then combine/compliment accordingly, but i don't know what that optimal ratio is. do those numbers exist?

i ordered a book today: exercise nutrition(mccardle). it's a college textbook. it was expensive, but i've got manifold questions of this variety. i'm hoping i can get a few things squared away so i can stop wasting so much time second guessing myself. like i said, i do train hard. i'd like to know a bit more about the nutritional significances of sport which might be of benefit.

anyway, thanks for the reply and good luck in your own personal training and life.

[determined4000]

no, no. i was not implying that i was vegetarian. i eat pretty much anything palatable. i guess i'm most interested in the optimal amino acid ratio, if there is one. i've read that egg is the closest to it but i don't the eat yolks, so that would change the numbers a bit. then milk, meats and so on. i can do the calculations then combine/compliment accordingly, but i don't know what that optimal ratio is. do those numbers exist?

i ordered a book today: exercise nutrition(mccardle). it's a college textbook. it was expensive, but i've got manifold questions of this variety. i'm hoping i can get a few things squared away so i can stop wasting so much time second guessing myself. like i said, i do train hard. i'd like to know a bit more about the nutritional significances of sport which might be of benefit.

anyway, thanks for the reply and good luck in your own personal training and life.

optimally, i would say ditch the soy/garden proteins for complete animal source protein which have higher bio availibility, digestion ratigs and essential amino profiles
whey, eggs, egg whites, chicken, tuna, beef, casein

[Holyspokes]

The whole combining thing is for "incomplete" proteins, not complete ones like soy.

[thegymbum]

I was a vegetarian for a while so have some experience with protein combining. A lot of vegetarian proteins are incomplete (lack a particular amino acid), mostly stuff like grains, beans, nuts, seeds, etc. So you have to combine different incomplete proteins to get all the amino acids necessary. Soy is a complete protein, though, it contains all the amino acids you need, so you shouldn't have to worry about it. As for the exact combination, I don't think there's any scientific evidence to support an exact ratio. As long as you're taking in plenty of complete protein, though, your body should have plenty of all the amino acids it needs.

[ae123]

thanks for your time and replies. like i said in my last post, i ordered a pretty good book by who i'm told is a reputable sports science scholar and author, so i'm looking forward to resolving some of the unresolved issues i have pertaining to the nutritional aspect of sport, like limiting amino acids and how they can interfere with muscle repair, and subsequently, my peace of mind with regards to protein intake.

i started this thread before i decided i was going to buy this book, so if i let this thread persish with a whimper, it's with my eye toward recieving mentioned book and researching the subject myself. thanks again.

[elmariachii]

Soy is not really complete, sure it has the whole amino acids, but there is a lack in methionine.

So to make it more complete, you should mix your soy with some cereal, it is the optimal way to get your Proteins from non meats.

[Emma-Leigh]

all you peoples discussing 'protein combining' and 'complete v's incomplete' proteins need to check out these threads:
Vegetables: complete protein?
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121062861

Differences in protein quality?
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=125047711

[thegymbum]

Soy is not really complete, sure it has the whole amino acids, but there is a lack in methionine.

Are you sure..? Where'd you hear that? I'm finding that most reliable sources claim it does have a small amount of methionine.

[elmariachii]

Are you sure..? Where'd you hear that? I'm finding that most reliable sources claim it does have a small amount of methionine.

yes, i don't mean it's void of methionine, but the small amount and coming from a non animal source makes it's bio availability very poor, thus the need of methionine supplementation of soy.

The best example on the top of my head, is milk formulas for babies allergic to cows milk under 1 year old, Soy milk formulas need to be supplemented with methionine, check that and read about it, very useful stuff.

[ae123]

yeah, less methionine/cysteine in soy. thus, the need to add a bit of those to make it a more complete protein than it already is. that was my concern/interest upon making my origional post. though, the difference between the amount of methionine in soy isolate and whey is less than 100mg and i always read that that is the big difference betwwen the two insofar as their "completeness" is concerned.

now foods makes a methionine supplement but it's 500mg per serving. i was looking for just the extra 100mg from somewhere. i suppose i could chop one of those servings into 1/5's if it comes in tablet form.

[Nick Helm]

Soy is not really complete, sure it has the whole amino acids, but there is a lack in methionine.

So to make it more complete, you should mix your soy with some cereal, it is the optimal way to get your Proteins from non meats.

This looks like it needs some clarification. There are over a hundred amino acids, and no food has them all, however, there are only 20 that are required in order to build tissue. There are a few plant sources of complete proteins, including soy, quinoa, and amaranth. Gelatin is an animal protein that is incomplete. As far as which is best, whey, casein, egg, and soy are all good, but the focus should be on getting your protein from a variety of sources rather than which is better than the other. Make sure to get most of your protein from whole food. You won't regret it.

[Shredded-Wolf]

This looks like it needs some clarification. There are over a hundred amino acids, and no food has them all, however, there are only 20 that are required in order to build tissue. There are a few plant sources of complete proteins, including soy, quinoa, and amaranth. Gelatin is an animal protein that is incomplete. As far as which is best, whey, casein, egg, and soy are all good, but the focus should be on getting your protein from a variety of sources rather than which is better than the other. Make sure to get most of your protein from whole food. You won't regret it.

forgot buckwheat, millet, and barley

[Shredded-Wolf]

Please avoid soy as main source of protein... im protecting you XD


A little over a year ago, soy protein was the talk of the town. It was invited to all the parties, and it was even rumored to be having a little romantic fling with Jennifer Aniston from Friends (before she married Brad Pitt).

Likewise, the general media was touting it to be the best thing since sliced bread, or was that 100% stone ground wheat bread? Oh well. Anyhow, since the government gave soy a "thumbs up" to the public, stating that, "25 grams of soy protein per day, as part of a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol, may reduce the risk of heart disease," people began to think that it was indeed the best protein around. After all, it was relatively high in quality, cheap, and healthy! What else could you want?

And to boot, a few studies arose from the muck to indicate that this protein may enhance anabolic hormone levels and may increase thyroid hormone levels while dieting. Sounds soooo good. Right? Well, after a good amount of both scientific and "real world" evidence has surfaced, it turns out that soy may not be so good after all. Especially for the male bodybuilder.

Sounds all too familiar to me. Reminds me of the evil-painted women that I and other hapless men have encountered in the past. Sure, she's beautiful, classy, smart, loaded, and best of all, horny! Nothing could be better in life. That is, until you start to discover that your wallet's missing 200 bucks and it now burns when you take a pee.

Ouch! Sounds pretty harsh, eh? Well, even so, this still isn't even close to what soy has done to us. I'll let you in on all of the evil and destructive things that soy can do to you, should you decide to consume it. Sadly though, we must be careful, as many companies are still adding this vile crud into protein formulas, bars, and meal replacements. Hopefully, after you hear what I have to say, you realize that soy shouldn't be consumed by male bodybuilders. Not even your worst enemy deserves the horrid effects that soy is capable of producing. Okay, enough rambling, let's get to it.

First though, before we begin, I just want to go over some quick review material, just to make sure we're all on the same page. The reason why soy is so bad basically boils down to the isoflavones that it contains. Two of these isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, are what cause the majority of negative effects seen with soy protein use.

These two villains bind readily to Estrogen Receptors. One such receptor is the Alpha receptor and the other, of course, is the Beta receptor. The Alpha receptor is the one generally associated with breast tumors, increased body fat, water retention, etc. The Beta receptor really isn't something to worry about. Anyhow, genistein and daidzein can bind rather well to the Alpha receptor.

No big deal right? Well, it might actually be somewhat beneficial if they didn't activate transcription to any significant degree, as this would be what's considered an anti-estrogenic action. In other words, it would be good if the compound binded to the site and didn't cause any growth, while preventing any naturally-produced estrogen from binding (the estrogen "parking spots" would already be filled). However, genistein does activate transcription to a significant degree after binding to the Alpha receptor and therefore will cause growth of tissues.(1,2,3)


Two of America's Most Wanted

Unfortunately, the two soy isoflavones that I mentioned previously can have numerous adverse effects on everything ranging from Testosterone production, thyroid production, muscle growth, and even health.

Let's consider soy's affects on T production first. The ability of soy protein to decrease Testosterone levels has been well demonstrated. One study displayed a 76% reduction of Testosterone production in men, after ingestion of soy protein over a brief period of time.(4) In yet another study, an inverse association was found between soy protein intake and Testosterone levels in Japanese men.(5)

Finally, in yet another study, using healthy adult males, a diet containing soy was compared to a diet that consisted of meat protein in terms of sex hormone concentrations. Well, after evaluation, Testosterone levels were significantly lower in the soy diet. Not only this, but the estimated amount of free Testosterone was 7% lower after the soy diet as well.(6)

Hey, mice didn't fare much better. Testosterone and LH were also lowered in mice consuming only the isoflavone genistein.(7)

The evidence seems pretty conclusive. There may, of course, be other factors, but it's enough to give one pause when considering whether or not he should add some soy to his next protein drink.


IGF, Thyroid, and the Girly Hormones

It's fairly clear that soy protein lowers testosterone levels. How does it affect estrogen and progesterone levels? You'd figure that genistein would at least reduce the activity of estrogen to some extent, since it binds at the same receptor site, right? Well, apparently not. It turns out that genistein does not inhibit the effects of estradiol and in fact has been demonstrated to exert an additive effect when combined with estradiol.(2,8)

This means that they don't interfere with one another and can both exert the same negative effects at the same time, thus, packing a double punch. Furthermore, genistein may potentially increase estradiol levels as well. It's thought that this may occur because genistein may deconjugate estrone in the gut and allow for it to reabsorb into the bloostream and convert to estradiol.(9)

It's possible that it may also exert some progestational activity.(10) Even worse is that the estrogenic activity of these phytoestrogens may have been underestimated in the past, as there is evidence that they may be much more potent in vivo as opposed to in vitro [test tube] studies.(11) Oh, and while we're still on the topic or hormones, soy protein has also been shown to decrease IGF-1 concentrations in male rats.(12) Oh, and I'd feel bad if I forgot to mention that it can lower T4 levels, too.(13)


Protecting Our Future

While planting a seed definitely isn't an immediate goal of mine, I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there who wish to pass on their superior genes. So, for these men, I urge you to not let your child or pregnant wife consume any products that contain soy. While there isn't concrete evidence as of yet, there's still enough to warrant some caution.

For instance, when female rats were fed genistein while pregnant, their pups weighed significantly less than the groups that weren't fed genistein.(14) Also, when young rats were given genistein, spermatogenesis decreased, as did body weight, testicle size, and possibly the urge to mate. Another study found similar results.(15,16)

Oh, and before I forget, genistein has been shown to cause testicular cells to die, in vitro at least.(17)


Healthy? I Think Not

The main reason why the government decided to "sponsor" soy protein was because it can supposedly reduce the risk of heart disease. However, the funny, or scary, thing is that soy has actually been shown to decrease HDL cholesterol.(18,19) HDL cholesterol is the good kind.

Furthermore, it's possible that the isoflavones can induce growth and malignancy of the prostate. This is because the ER Alpha is thought to be at least partially responsible for the induction of growth. So, in theory, since genistein can agonize the ER Alpha in much the same way as estradiol, then it could cause growth of the prostate.(20)


Okay, So What About my Muscles?

Okay, now let's move on to the important stuff. How good is soy protein in terms of increasing muscle growth? Well, when compared to casein, it was beaten in terms of both protein synthesis and breakdown.(21) So, we know that it can't match proteins like casein or whey. What else? Well, even though this might make you cringe, I feel obligated to tell you. Get this, genistein was shown to inhibit myoblast proliferation and fusion in a dose-dependent manner!

It decreased protein synthesis and inhibited protein accretion as a result. These results occurred even at the lowest dose. The authors concluded that if animals consume enough soy, those concentrations of genistein could potentially affect normal muscle growth and development.(22)

Now that's some frightening stuff! Okay, so things couldn't get any worse for soy, right? Well not only may it interfere with muscle growth, but it may screw with your pro-hormone usage. Why is that? Well, genistein may interfere with the conversion of 4-androstenediol to Testosterone, thus, reducing the effectiveness of your favorite supplement to a good degree! This happens because it interferes with the enzyme 3 Beta-HSD.(23)


The End?

Boy, I wish it were the end, but the fact is that many companies, with the encouragement of the government, will continue to add soy protein to their products. However, like many of us fringe-element weight lifters have for so many years, we'll stand by and endure while the rest of the world makes a big mistake.

The next thing you know, there will be a big story about how truly harmful this stuff is to the male. Hopefully it won't be too late. But hey, maybe I'm being a bit hypercritical here. I mean, who knows, this may actually be a good supplement for the average woman. They seem to think they need more estrogen and less muscle, so more power to 'em.

For those T-Vixens, however, stay away from it! Especially while pregnant. Anyhow, my advice for you would be to read every food and supplement label that you have to make sure that there isn't any soy within the product. I mean, hey, you'll be checking the macronutrient profile anyhow, so just skim on down to the ingredients from now on. Be careful, you'd be surprised by how many items have been tainted. For now, good luck and keep your eyes peeled.

[doctapeppadoc]

ive read that it doesnt matter that much, as long as you're getting more than enough of all the essentials. beyond that, if one's more in excess than another, its not going to hurt. so i dont think theres a need for an "optimal" ratio really.

[Emma-Leigh]

Please avoid soy as main source of protein... im protecting you XD
<snip>

If you are going to post a whole heap of t-nation scare-monger pseudo-science, you might not want to simply 'dumb and run'. Instead:
- 1. mention where you got it from [link if possible]
- 2. mention who the author is
- 3. look closer at their reference list
- 4. look closer at the science behind it [without you having an understanding of the science behind what you are posting, you may well be posting a lot of garbage that isn't helpful to anyone... ]

[elmariachii]

This looks like it needs some clarification. There are over a hundred amino acids, and no food has them all, however, there are only 20 that are required in order to build tissue. There are a few plant sources of complete proteins, including soy, quinoa, and amaranth. Gelatin is an animal protein that is incomplete. As far as which is best, whey, casein, egg, and soy are all good, but the focus should be on getting your protein from a variety of sources rather than which is better than the other. Make sure to get most of your protein from whole food. You won't regret it.

This was known 30 years ago, yes Soy has a complete profile, but the bioavailability of some amino acids most importantly methionine is very low.



Methionine fortification of a soy protein formula fed to infants
SJ Fomon, EE Ziegler, LJ Filer Jr, SE Nelson and BB Edwards
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 32, 2460-2471, Copyright © 1979 by The American Society for Clinical Nutrition, Inc

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/12/2460

[ae123]

bought some genisoy protein powder the other night at Wegman's. Do you guy's have Wegmans'? It's a supermarket, and I'll emphasize the word "super". by this I mean, it's got food-many different kinds from all over-but lots of other things, also. you all probably have a couple of stores like this near where you are. it's got ambiance, too. much more than, say, grocery stores 5-10 years back. so...

...anyways, i'm not selling the Wegman's shopping experience. or anything else for that matter. I guess since i started this thread i 'm just trying for something to write about to fulfill my obligation as the starter of this thread. But since I no longer have a question pertaining to the origional topic, having decided to do my own research, and cannot really add anything to the discussion on the detrimental nature of different soy powders, and thier ingredients, when overconsumed, I guess I'll just finish this sentence with a period and call it a thread.

[thegymbum]

Genisoy has been a long-loved favorite brand for me. I haven't used their protein powders, but I've been a huge fan of their Soy Crisps. They're high in protein, relatively low in calories and fat, and come in 8 delicious flavors. I think they taste much better than potato chips, yet the nutritional profile is manifold better! Anyway, glad you found a good soy protein powder. Hope you enjoy it!

[ae123]

a good friend of mine had a little tub of this brand of soy powder with her in her car sometimes. i guess she was along with your line of thinking in that when she was just too busy, why not just have a few scoops. like you said, better than most things she might consume otherwise. as for me, i ran out of protein in my pantry, all but a few cans of tuna, which i avoid unless there is abslolutely no alternative. i know, i sound like a spoiled modern day american. sometimes i am that. actually, if i made a list of the things i take for granted each and every day, i would be thoroughly embarrassed, even if only amongst myself and my own thoughts. of course, i'm working on that. anyway, it's been a good supplement for the past few days. i would definitely buy it again. and i may buy it again. i don't usually shop at wegmans though, so it might be a while, too. manifold. that's a good word. i, personally use it as often as possible, and now you've got me looking forward to my next opportunity to do so. thanks.

[varun008]

Please tell me about roasted soy beans side effect if it contains any
And
suggest me Cheap and best supplement for MUSCLE mass gain
I am 26year male
Started gym at 23 for 4 months only & gained 10 kg after then due to some problem I lose that weight now 1 & half month back joined gym, gained 3 kg in 1st month last 15 days it is stable only
My weight now 68kg height 5’8” age 26
I want big muscle back again even more then that
But don’t want to use CREATINE
Doing sitting job 9am to 6pm
Evening gym
Thankx in advance