Broscience? Mixing whey/casein before bed?

[PROTEINNN]

Read some study online, and found some threads on here talking about mixing whey and casein before bed.

Casein for obvious reasons that everyone knows, but also adding in whey to help "jumpstart" the protein absorption? Something along those lines, or I could be completely wrong.

Well anyways, whats everyone's opinion on this?

and by casein i mean cottage cheese or powdered supplement

[snorkelman]

IMO this is much ado about nothing. As long as you are getting adequate protein during the day, and you are getting some type of protein before bed, you are highly unlikely to exhibit any LBM loss during sleep on account of choosing the wrong type of pre-bed protein.

Now, those people who workout shortly before bed, may be a different discussion.

[RyouBakua]

I just take it because its always worked for me.


My EAS Whey/Muscle Milk Casein delivers 50 pro, 16 carbs, 11 fat

whey for now, casein for later seems logical


No broscience needed

[bbejj123]

during sleep your cortisol levels begin to raise, and by mixing whey and casein its basically to ensure that amino acids are available to be transported rather than having to break them down from muscle, the majority will instead come from the continual break down of the casein =)

when casein gets to the stomach it starts to coagulate which causes it to be absorbed slower

[t_cates33]

how much whey are they saying to add?!?

[Msaki75]

IMO this is much ado about nothing. As long as you are getting adequate protein during the day, and you are getting some type of protein before bed, you are highly unlikely to exhibit any LBM loss during sleep on account of choosing the wrong type of pre-bed protein.

Now, those people who workout shortly before bed, may be a different discussion.

^this, you dont NEED any protein before bed unless you fall short of it during the day, and if you dont meet your goals than any type of protein before bed will do, whether it's whey, casein, or fish, chicken, turkey, cottage cheese... Your muscles will not break themselves down in 8 hours of sleep

[Bramble]

your muscle wont shrink from 9 hours of having no food but they sure as shiit wont grow during that time


come at me anti broscience brosciencest

[PROTEINNN]

Does anybody else currently mix the two?

[aussieangie]

here is some info taken from a site that I looked up......

Whey Protein Powder Versus Casein Protein Powder – Why Use Together

Whey protein powder is a must for any body builder
But how can casein protein powder benefit you when you're using whey protein powder? Discover the advantages of using both.

Whey protein powder works by being digested quickly. Instead of sitting in the stomach, it is absorbed into the bloodstream and taken directly to the parts of your body that needs it - the muscles. The cells are then supplied with the building blocks they need to repair your muscles after a workout and enhance growth and strength.

Casein can sometimes be used as an ingredient in some whey protein products. This is because it is cheaper to process and easier to manufacture than pure whey. This could be good thing for the manufacturer as it saves them money, but it reduces the quality of the product itself. This differentiates between a quality brand and a good brand, but by using casein on its own can be just as beneficial as using whey.

Whey and casein work in complete opposite ways of each other, but produce the same results at the end of the day. Whey is renown for promoting quick protein synthesis (muscle growth). It is digested in your stomach at a quick speed and is absorbed straight into the bloodstream for quicker, effective results. It is whey's quick release properties that body builders need.

Casein works in the opposite way as it has slow release properties. It is the wrong supplement entirely if used before a workout as the protein doesn't reach your muscles quick enough, and used as an ingredient in whey protein powders is a bad idea. The two contradict themselves, so your end results won't be as effective. However, casein on its own has many beneficial properties.

Casein protein – or otherwise known as "night time protein" – can take up to 7 hours before it is fully digested, a time much slower than whey. It is because of this that makes it ideal to use at night time. As the human body sleeps, it restores itself and regenerates from the stresses of everyday life, including intense training sessions. By taking casein before you go to bed provides your body a constant supply of slow release protein, helping and encouraging its growth as you sleep. This enables your muscles to be refreshed and energized at the start of every day.

Using casein and a whey protein powder in conjunction with each other ensures you get the most out of your supplements, and your results will be much more dramatic and effective.
Retrieved from "http://www.articlesbase.com/supplements-and-vitamins-articles/whey-protein-powder-versus-casein-protein-powder-why-use-together-1927978.html"

[bseidl]

"Casein works in the opposite way as it has slow release properties. It is the wrong supplement entirely if used before a workout as the protein doesn't reach your muscles quick enough, and used as an ingredient in whey protein powders is a bad idea."

Sounds like the article contains some broscience.

[asphalt690]

If you want a mix of casein and whey, then just drink regular milk and stop wasting money on protein powders :P

[Murderfox]

Does anybody else currently mix the two?

I do, cause of taste preferences, not cause i believe the stuff from that article.

[PROTEINNN]

If you want a mix of casein and whey, then just drink regular milk and stop wasting money on protein powders :P

Might sound stupid, but how much of each is in milk?

[snorkelman]

Might sound stupid, but how much of each is in milk?

milk is 80% casein and 20% whey

[TyrusJB]

I read a study that studied soy protien isolate, casein, and whey powders post workout to see which builds most muscle.

Whey did the worst.

It jump started muscle repair, but the process was too short.. not providing a steady source of aminos for continual recovery. My experience supports this.. get a good pump ~30min. after taking, but doesn't last for more than 20-30 min. As with milk, I can lie down and get up 2 hours later my muscles still feel full and building.

second was soy protien.

First, casein! it takes so long to digest in the stomach, and we get a steady stream for hours.

Here's my thought..

Cow milk is specifically formulated for a baby cow to make as much growth possible in the most optimal way. Lactose and casein for insulin and insulin like growth factor. A steady source of aminos for hours. Contributes whey to get a full profile of aminos. Saturated fat to create cell walls and to provide that 50% of our bodies that saturated fat makes up.

Calcium, phosphorus.. yadda, yadda.

Whole milk makes you grow.. no doubt from my experience.

Why not use that great formulation and add more whey protien?

8g of protien per cup.. 6g casein and 2g whey.

Not to mention what heat may do to whey during pasteurization and the time it has had to degrade.

Why not reinforce a perfect formula? I think the saturated fat slows down absorption of whey as well

With enough calories, adequate carbs, enough zinc for test.. Whole milk plus a scoop of whey is superb for muscle creation!!

[alan aragon]

IMO this is much ado about nothing. As long as you are getting adequate protein during the day, and you are getting some type of protein before bed, you are highly unlikely to exhibit any LBM loss during sleep on account of choosing the wrong type of pre-bed protein.

Now, those people who workout shortly before bed, may be a different discussion.

winnaarr

[TyrusJB]

IMO this is much ado about nothing. As long as you are getting adequate protein during the day, and you are getting some type of protein before bed, you are highly unlikely to exhibit any LBM loss during sleep on account of choosing the wrong type of pre-bed protein.

Now, those people who workout shortly before bed, may be a different discussion.

8 hours of sleep has got to be the best time to build muscle and aid recovery.

It doesn't make sense to me to deprive our bodies of aminos, and calories when all our processes of regeneration are running full bore.

I wouldn't say it's about losing muscle... as we're not expending enough energy, but a 2-cup glass of skim-whole milk keeps me from waking up hungry.

[alan aragon]

8 hours of sleep has got to be the best time to build muscle and aid recovery.

It doesn't make sense to me to deprive our bodies of aminos, and calories when all our processes of regeneration are running full bore.

I wouldn't say it's about losing muscle... as we're not expending enough energy, but a 2-cup glass of skim-whole milk keeps me from waking up hungry.

A full-sized meal can keep blood nutrient levels elevated for 6 hours pretty easily. The beginnings of body protein losses occur after roughly 20-24 hrs of eating zippo. Thus, if you're saying that skipping dinner is generally not conducive to the goal of gaining muscle at a maximal rate, then fine. However, if you don't skip dinner, then the difference between this type of protein or that is much ado about nothing.

[TyrusJB]

A full-sized meal can keep blood nutrient levels elevated for 6 hours pretty easily. The beginnings of body protein losses occur after roughly 20-24 hrs of eating zippo. Thus, unless you're saying that skipping dinner is generally not conducive to the goal of gaining muscle at a maximal rate, then fine. However, if you don't skip dinner, then the difference between this type of protein or that is much ado about nothing.

I can agree with you there.. gastric emptying takes a good amount of time


So why is it that eating anything other than milk before bed leaves me really hungry when I wake up? like I've been hungry for at least a few hours.

[snorkelman]

So why is it that eating anything other than milk before bed leaves me really hungry when I wake up? like I've been hungry for at least a few hours.

What is it that you are eating/drinking before bed?

[TyrusJB]

What is it that you are eating/drinking before bed?

For an example.. 2-3 chicken breasts, 3-4 small-medium potatoes with cheese and some light, no sugar ragu sauce, with a tablespoon or two of olive oil... and that could be right before bed, but like I said, I feel pretty hungry when I wake up.

now if I have that around 6pm I'm hungry by bed time.. around 10, I'll want something else.

but... if I drink what would be 3 or 4 measured cups of milk before bed (not that I measure, just what it would probably be), I'm not hungry by the time I get up.. 6 am.

I feel empty, yes, but that strong pang isn't there telling me im in catabolism. If it is, I usually have to pop a boiled egg before getting ready, just so it doesn't increase when im rushing to make time.

[PROTEINNN]

So where did all the hype about eating cottage cheese pre-bed for casein come from?

[alan aragon]

So where did all the hype about eating cottage cheese pre-bed for casein come from?

Actual answer: some random bro

[TyrusJB]

I just don't buy it.. it can't be right that a regular meal would be equal to a 6-7 hour digesting protein.

there could be a variety of things that would differ..

for example..

amino acids are used by the body after the first two or three hours then after there would be less. Like a spike, then a gradual decline in available nutrients..

where it would be superior to have casein in the stomach giving a steady rate of new digestion and uptake

[snorkelman]

A full-sized meal can keep blood nutrient levels elevated for 6 hours pretty easily...

I just don't buy it.. it can't be right that a regular meal would be equal to a 6-7 hour digesting protein...

[TyrusJB]

that's hilarious

[ErickStevens]

Aw snap. It's about to go down, son!

[Simmo0508]

So where did all the hype about eating cottage cheese pre-bed for casein come from?

It's not so much hype, compared to people heavily underestimating how long it takes for regular food to be broken down by the body.

They then fall victim to the broscience of feeling they HAVE to eat every 2 hours or so etc. leading to their assumption that the food they eat in those meals gets used up in that 2 hour period, hence the constant eating myth.

I always advise people to forget the casein craze, forget about cottage cheese (if you hate it that is, and feel as if you have to eat it because you "have to"), and stick to their normal foods. Their eggs, their chicken, their steak, their fish etc.

All of that, plus all of the food eaten throughout that said day (and prior to that even) is still being broken down and used, covering that typical 8hr sleep period anyway.

Note: Assuming we're talking man sized meals here and not little pussy bitch ****.

[alan aragon]

I just don't buy it.. it can't be right that a regular meal would be equal to a 6-7 hour digesting protein.

there could be a variety of things that would differ..

for example..

amino acids are used by the body after the first two or three hours then after there would be less. Like a spike, then a gradual decline in available nutrients..

where it would be superior to have casein in the stomach giving a steady rate of new digestion and uptake

And why would spikes and dips be a bad thing in the first place? You're obviously unaware that muscle protein synthesis spontaneously declines after amino acid levels are held at a constant elevation. Why does this happen? According to the protein stat hypothesis, there's a membrane-bound sensor that detects relative changes in amino acid concentrations rather than absolute changes. In other words muscle protein synthesis potentially can be optimized by a series of spikes and dips in AA levels rather than constant streams. Notice I used the word "potentially", because in reality, I still don't think it makes a gnat's assworth of difference which prebed protein you choose as long as you hit your total protein target for the day. There's a substantial amount of research in support of that statement, by the way. I don't spout off hot air because I like to hear myself talk.

[Scraff]

Well, Alan Aragon said the following once upon a time (not too long ago):

Thus far in the scientific literature, comparisons of casein-dominant proteins with whey for sports applications are evenly split. Some studies show casein as superior (in spite of a higher leucine content in the whey treatments) [9,10], while others point to whey as the victor [11,12]. The only certainty is that it can’t be assumed that faster is better when it comes to promoting net anabolism. An acute study on post-ingestion amino acid kinetics by LaCroix suggests that milk protein is best left as-is rather than isolating its protein fractions [13]. Compared to total milk protein, whey’s amino acid delivery was too transient, and underwent rapid deamination during the postprandial period. The authors concluded that milk proteins had the best nutritional quality, which suggested a synergistic effect between its casein and whey. Bottom line: chocolate milk gets the edge; WPH has thus far bit the dust compared to WPI in a head-to-head comparison, and whey has not been consistently superior to total milk protein.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...-recovery.html

There’s also this false implication that whey, being higher in leucine than casein, is superior. Not true, at least according to the current body of research, which indicates that casein, or at the very least, a blend of casein & whey, is superior to whey alone for affecting a number of parameters bodybuilders care about. What people seem to constantly forget is that net gains in muscle are the result of not just protein synthesis, but the inhibition of protein breakdown. Casein’s antiproteolytic effect is more profound than whey or leucine’s protein-synthetic effect. Hence its lead spot in the current body of research. The name of the game seems to revolve back to the old cliché of mixing things up, and achieving a variety of sources of protein from whey to casein, to flesh, to the range of sea & land flesh, to Asian women. Just kidding, I wanted to make sure everyone was awake.

http://www.alanaragon.com/bodybuildi...ne-norton.html

Since the OP mentioned taking a powdered supplement, it would make sense to buy both casein and whey rather than just one. If there ends up being a benefit to mixing the two, he'll get it. If there's no benefit, what's the harm? IIRC, casein is not much more expensive and if you're going to purchase one product anyway...