The Strongest Natural Testosterone Booster Available? (Blood Work Included)

[TheNaturalLG]

Awesome results on this product. I have used the Formadrol twice and I actually liked it just as well as the Methyl 1d. I had great results using it as a PCT, Im now taking Natadrol and in 8 weeks will use the Formadrol as a PCT product. Karim-let me know how your gf does on that, I havent heard of a female using it before.

[IrishCannon]

If you want a completely civil answer, then don't imply a question with sarcastic undertones. - I answered the question fully, anyhow. Yes, it's standard to see estrogen rise when using certains AIs or SIs.

It's pretty simple to understand. - And again, proportionally, estrogen is much lower on the post-Formadrol blood panel.

[IrishCannon]

...and, just to add, eradicating estrogen is ABSOLUTELY NOT the point of an AI. The point of an AI is to CONTROL estrogen. Turning a ratio of testosterone to estrogen from 6 to 1, to 14 to 1...ya, I think it controlled it pretty damn good.

[michael3435]

If you want a completely civil answer, then don't imply a question with sarcastic undertones. - I answered the question fully, anyhow. Yes, it's standard to see estrogen rise when using certains AIs or SIs.

no sarcastic undertones were made. i simply asked a question....dont know where you go that from. i think you should be less antagonistic in your responses.

It's pretty simple to understand. - And again, proportionally, estrogen is much lower on the post-Formadrol blood panel.

not so simple. estrogen should not be higher with an aromatase inhibitor which is why i asked.

since it appears so easy, can you explain to moa's and how a rise in estrogen is possible?

Also, is that blood test measuring estradiol or estrone?

[IrishCannon]

not so simple. estrogen should not be higher with an aromatase inhibitor which is why i asked.

since it appears so easy, can you explain to moa's and how a rise in estrogen is possible?

Also, is that blood test measuring estradiol or estrone?

Estrogen can easily be higher on an AI, and it makes perfect sense as to why.

The MOA of the 7,8-benz derivative in Formadrol Extreme is to increase LH, which in turn increases testosterone, which in turn elevates estrogen due to aromatase. The AI in Formadrol aids in LOWERING estrogen by lowering aromatase, which you can obviously see it did. As seen, estrogen is proportionally much lower on the 2nd blood panel. Test shot way up, and estrogen was only slightly elevated from a numerical standpoint, but much lower percentage-wise.

I say again, an AI is not made to eradicate estrogen, but to control it.

I was under the impression that the test measures both estradiol and estrone, but not estriol. - I'm honestly not too sure about this test specifically, I'd have to look.

[michael3435]

Estrogen can easily be higher on an AI, and it makes perfect sense as to why.

No it cannot. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the aromatase enzyme and what it does. it seriously prevents estrogen from being formed, period. males have a very tough time producing estrogen without this enzyme if any at all.

The MOA of the 7,8-benz derivative in Formadrol Extreme is to increase LH, which in turn increases testosterone, which in turn elevates estrogen due to aromatase.

7,8 is labeled as an AI on the ingredient list. aromatase inhibitors do not increase LH. how does it increase LH? even if it did, an increase in estrogen 3-fold could not result from an LH increase.

The AI in Formadrol aids in LOWERING estrogen by lowering aromatase, which you can obviously see it did.

no, i cannot see that it did. if aromatase was lowered, estrogen would be lowered. are you familiar with the mechanims of how men produce estrogen?

As seen, estrogen is proportionally much lower on the 2nd blood panel. Test shot way up, and estrogen was only slightly elevated from a numerical standpoint, but much lower percentage-wise.

estrogen was not slightly elevated by no means.

I say again, an AI is not made to eradicate estrogen, but to control it.

no, an AI decreases estrogen. aromatase is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. without that enzyme, estrogen production is halted and negative feedback helps to produce more testosterone. i will say it one more time: AI's decrease estrogen or else it is not an AI.

I was under the impression that the test measures both estradiol and estrone, but not estriol. - I'm honestly not too sure about this test specifically, I'd have to look.

[RebuildMe]

I was wondering wheter it was the version with ATD because that AI is known to cause spuriously high test and estrogens reading.

[IrishCannon]

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I really don't understand how to dumb it down any further for you. Everything I said makes perfect sense and is totally accurate. Either you don't understand math, you don't understand the endocrine system, or you don't understand either.

[michael3435]

I was wondering wheter it was the version with ATD because that AI is known to cause spuriously high test and estrogens reading.

it's a false positive because the ATD is picked up as testosterone on conventional assays to read testosterone. in reality, ATD does not really do much to the actual blood serum levels.

[IrishCannon]

There is absolutely no ATD in the product.

[IrishCannon]

Michael, how do you not understand these test results? - Taking an AI does not kill estrogen. Respective to the dose, aromatization decreases, just as reflected in these results. Testosterone went from 6:1 T to E, to just under 14:1 T to E. Testosterone more than tripled, and the ratio of T to E was chopped by more than 100%. That means that aromatization DECREASED. - The argument that estrogen went up numerically is moot.

[michael3435]

Michael, how do you not understand these test results? - Taking an AI does not kill estrogen. Respective to the dose, aromatization decreases, just as reflected in these results. Testosterone went from 6:1 T to E, to just under 14:1 T to E. Testosterone more than tripled, and the ratio of T to E was chopped by more than 100%. That means that aromatization DECREASED. - The argument that estrogen went up numerically is moot.

i never said it killed estrogen. i DID say it cannot increase estrogen 3x though by inhibiting an enzyme that is responsible for its production. an aromatase inhibitor will lower estrogen though.

let me ask you this: if aromatase inhibitors can increase estrogen (even with this increase in test you speak of), then wouldnt the use of AI's in PCT not eradicate the high estrogen left from some cycles and/or increase gyno problems????

read this: first line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase_inhibitor

[IrishCannon]

i never said it killed estrogen. i DID say it cannot increase estrogen 3x though by inhibiting an enzyme that is responsible for its production. an aromatase inhibitor will lower estrogen though.

An AI, in and of itself, does not increase estrogen. What increases estrogen is teh increase of testosterone. The more testosterone your body has, the more aromatase your body is going to have as your body is trying to create a balance. - Since an AI lowers estrogen, it will in turn raise testosterone, which will now increase total aromatase.

let me ask you this: if aromatase inhibitors can increase estrogen (even with this increase in test you speak of), then wouldnt the use of AI's in PCT not eradicate the high estrogen left from some cycles and/or increase gyno problems????

Yes, it can, which is why SERMs, not AIs, or running AIs/SERMS inversely is recommended. - I choose to run AIs in a low dose alongside SERMs in PCT.

Formadrol is a PCT product as well as a standalone testosterone booster, which is why we have the balance of both the AI complex and the SERM complex.

[Resolve.]

do you understand how an AI works?

It's actually pretty normal to see an increase in estrogen after a while on an AI - it's all one big feedback loop. Inhibit an aromatase, it's transcription is going to eventually increase to counter the inhibition, and along with that estrogen is going to rise. The fact that the ratio of est/test is improving is what I would consider the plus here.

[michael3435]

An AI, in and of itself, does not increase estrogen. What increases estrogen is teh increase of testosterone. The more testosterone your body has, the more aromatase your body is going to have as your body is trying to create a balance. - Since an AI lowers estrogen, it will in turn raise testosterone, which will now increase total aromatase.

listen carefully: you body will not surpass homeostasis in order to produce more estrogen than it had previously.

in addition, there is less aromatase enzyme to convert the test into estrogen. the ENZYME (not testosterone) is the limiting factor.

[Resolve.]

listen carefully: you body will not surpass homeostasis in order to produce more estrogen than it had previously.

in addition, there is less aromatase enzyme to convert the test into estrogen. the ENZYME (not testosterone) is the limiting factor.

If test rises, and aromatase is inhibited, equilibrium is thrown off. This is rectified by increasing production of aromatase, resulting in raised estrogen and a return towards homeostasis. It's called rebound.

This is post-menopausal women, but it demonstrates what I'm talking about:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...s-rebound.html

[michael3435]

If test rises, and aromatase is inhibited, equilibrium is thrown off. This is rectified by increasing production of aromatase, resulting in raised estrogen and a return towards homeostasis. It's called rebound.

This is post-menopausal women, but it demonstrates what I'm talking about:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...s-rebound.html

what you linked is AFTER the aromatase inhibitor. and a ridiculously high dose at that. of course rebound will happen in women.

also, this is in postmenopausal women. they have more mechanisms of producing estrogen and it is very likely that they have feedback via other pathways as well. the link you provided cannot be used as evidence here.

even if aromatase inhibitors did drastically increase estrogen, you are okay with estrogen rebound 3x that of normal levels...in men who will feel the effects of increased estrogen much greater? gyno?

[Resolve.]

what you linked is AFTER the aromatase inhibitor. and a ridiculously high dose at that. of course rebound will happen in women.

also, this is in postmenopausal women. they have more mechanisms of producing estrogen and it is very likely that they have feedback via other pathways as well. the link you provided cannot be used as evidence here.

even if aromatase inhibitors did drastically increase estrogen, you are okay with estrogen rebound 3x that of normal levels...in men who will feel the effects of increased estrogen much greater? gyno?

I'm using this to demonstrate that rebound does occur. Yes, it will be different between men and women. But as I said before - inhibit an enzyme with a feedback loop and that enzymes expression will increase, resulting in an increase over time of it's original activity.

Additionally, as had already been pointed out, the ratio of test to est improved and est levels were still well within normal levels.

[michael3435]

I'm using this to demonstrate that rebound does occur. Yes, it will be different between men and women. But as I said before - inhibit an enzyme with a feedback loop and that enzymes expression will increase, resulting in an increase over time of it's original activity.

Additionally, as had already been pointed out, the ratio of test to est improved.

rebound occurs AFTER the AI is discontinued. When taking the AI, yes the body will increase the production of aromatase (although it depends on the aromatase inhibitor whether or not aromatase will remain in homeostasis) but it will only attempt to keep estrogen levels at baseline (men have estrogen receptors which sense this). Rebound will occur after because the inhibitor is rapidly pulled away and you are left with a bunch of aromatase to convert to testosterone. this is kinda off topic anyway..

i have voiced my concerns and made them very clear. i will not question the validity of the bloodwork or whats in the product, but the 3x increase in estrogen is very alarming and is not in any way possible from an AI during use.

good luck with the product and i am happy that you guys at least attempted to get bloodwork unlike many other companies.

btw, resolve, if you are affiliated with a company put your affiliation in your sig.

[CraigMatthew]

Nothing wrong with michael's post in the thread. If anything the hostility came from your reps reply.

I never said there was anything wrong with his post, I was asking to keep the debate civil

[CraigMatthew]

rebound occurs AFTER the AI is discontinued. When taking the AI, yes the body will increase the production of aromatase (although it depends on the aromatase inhibitor whether or not aromatase will remain in homeostasis) but it will only attempt to keep estrogen levels at baseline (men have estrogen receptors which sense this). Rebound will occur after because the inhibitor is rapidly pulled away and you are left with a bunch of aromatase to convert to testosterone. this is kinda off topic anyway..

i have voiced my concerns and made them very clear. i will not question the validity of the bloodwork or whats in the product, but the 3x increase in estrogen is very alarming and is not in any way possible from an AI during use.

good luck with the product and i am happy that you guys at least attempted to get bloodwork unlike many other companies.

btw, resolve, if you are affiliated with a company put your affiliation in your sig.

Resolve is not affiliated with Lg Sciences, thus there's no need for anything in his sig.

[IrishCannon]

rebound occurs AFTER the AI is discontinued. When taking the AI, yes the body will increase the production of aromatase (although it depends on the aromatase inhibitor whether or not aromatase will remain in homeostasis) but it will only attempt to keep estrogen levels at baseline (men have estrogen receptors which sense this). Rebound will occur after because the inhibitor is rapidly pulled away and you are left with a bunch of aromatase to convert to testosterone. this is kinda off topic anyway..

i have voiced my concerns and made them very clear. i will not question the validity of the bloodwork or whats in the product, but the 3x increase in estrogen is very alarming and is not in any way possible from an AI during use.

good luck with the product and i am happy that you guys at least attempted to get bloodwork unlike many other companies.

btw, resolve, if you are affiliated with a company put your affiliation in your sig.

Why do I keep hearing 3x increase in estrogen? - It went from 64 to 102. That's no even double.

[CraigMatthew]

Why do I keep hearing 3x increase in estrogen? - It went from 64 to 102. That's no even double.

Had me confused as well.

Estrogen went from 64 to 102 (with reference rang 130 or less)

[IrishCannon]

Had me confused as well.

Estrogen went from 64 to 102 (with reference rang 130 or less)

Not to mention that this number fully proves Formadrol's efficacy as an anti-estrogen. When estrogen at baseline is 64 and test is 385, and then Formadrol is used and test gets raised more than triple, and estrogen only goes up to 102...it's totally obvious that aromatization is decreased.

[Resolve.]

rebound occurs AFTER the AI is discontinued. When taking the AI, yes the body will increase the production of aromatase (although it depends on the aromatase inhibitor whether or not aromatase will remain in homeostasis) but it will only attempt to keep estrogen levels at baseline (men have estrogen receptors which sense this). Rebound will occur after because the inhibitor is rapidly pulled away and you are left with a bunch of aromatase to convert to testosterone. this is kinda off topic anyway..

i have voiced my concerns and made them very clear. i will not question the validity of the bloodwork or whats in the product, but the 3x increase in estrogen is very alarming and is not in any way possible from an AI during use.

good luck with the product and i am happy that you guys at least attempted to get bloodwork unlike many other companies.

btw, resolve, if you are affiliated with a company put your affiliation in your sig.

Not affiliated at all. I know some of the reps from AM (my home board) and I've run a couple of logs for LG, but that's about it.

Estrogen remained well within normal limits. As test rises, so too will est, even in the presence of an OTC AI over time. We're not talking letro here.

[michaelarmenta]

subbed... very interesting product by LG Sciences

[IrishCannon]

Just for Michael...

Some numbers from a study on 6OXO (trione):

300mg dose:
Start Estradiol - 89.64
Week 1 - 121.20
Week 2 - 112.34
Week 3 - 112.34

600mg Dose:
Week 0 - 49.12
Week 1- 71.38
Week 3 - 145.51

[legalgear]

i have voiced my concerns and made them very clear. i will not question the validity of the bloodwork or whats in the product, but the 3x increase in estrogen is very alarming and is not in any way possible from an AI during use.

NOT IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE?

Was possible in the Baylor study on 6-OXO at both 300 and 600 mg like Scott posted.

Also happened on the Novedex XT study:
Estradiol
Week 0 - 78
Week 4 - 91.6
Week 8 - 102.5

More than possible, it seems very common when you boost T that high you get higher E. The ratio is the important point.

[Ace28]

Would you suggest this after a mild pulse cycle?

[chasinSKURT]

The real question here is wether or not the increase in testosterone is gonna lead to anything more than increase libido.

Also, n=1 means ZILCH. Not to mention that the time of each test and methods are not mentioned.

But the real question here is will this sort of increase even elicit any favorable response other than a few more hard ons?