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  1. #91
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ggecko22 View Post
    Idk. I definitely hear where you're coming from..."If you do this, this, and this (the 20%) you wil get these results (the 80%)." Ok, fair enough. But why not try to be as effective and efficient as possible? Ya, by looking into all the "minutia" you are only improving 20% of you're results, but is that to say that it's not worth it? With as much dedication, hard work, and discipline that getting results requires, why not strive for that extra 20%? Is it really not worth it, to try to find the best, most effective angle to do incline bench. I'm not saying spend all of your time researching such a thing, but I want my exercises to be as effective as possible. If the timing of a post workout meal is at all important, why not eat it as soon as possible? You certainly wouldn't wait 1 and 1/2 hours would you? So if the timing matters at all, why not make sure you are optimizing this meal? Right, the person who uses whichever is more effective between barbell and ez bar curls isn't going to have arms 2 inches bigger than the person who uses the bar that's less effective (from this variation alone atleast). But over the course of two, three years, maybe the results would be slightly better. For me, that slight advantage is worth looking into.
    Over the course of two, three years, their results are usually far worse.

    The problem is the focus on the 80% stuff that hardly matters. So much effort and thought goes into that, they put less effort into the 20% that matters most. They can even stop doing what matters most until they are much more advanced:

    Get your scheduled reps in good form. Add 5lbs. Repeat until you are so advanced that linear progression won't deliver any more gains. Then move to a program designed for more advanced guys.

    Most people never get beyond the novice stage, in terms of muscle and strength, no matter how many years they have been training.

    Look at all the undeveloped guys training for years, who have been worrying too much about the fluff. They have less muscle and strength than a tennis player who never lifted weights.
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  2. #92
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    Originally Posted by Tyrbolift View Post
    That was in my sig for a good long while.

    When did he steal it from me?
    Now we know where he gets all his stuff. Who knew?
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  3. #93
    Registered User Time-Man's Avatar
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    I have to agree with OP . I realised that most guys ,me included want results NOW . And if they don't then the exersize or diet is wrong . So in that sense i realised that to change my body 100% it breaks down to 10% exersize type / 10% stuff i eat and MOST important 80% time .

    I realised my biggest enemy was to be impatient, it takes time to change the damage we did to our bodies . We mistreated it for years and yet now expect it to magically reverse that prosess in a matter of a year or shorter. So in my mind my biggest hurdle to get over is to be PATIENT and not expect impossible things to happen . But to do the time and then reap the rewards .
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  4. #94
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    Just lift and eat.... I think people overcomplicate things. Getting stronger is a slow, long and hard process... only way to do it is to keep good form, lift as heavy as you can, eat right and keep at it.
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  5. #95
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    great article, far too often i see people worrying about which bar to use for the tricep pushdown or how many degrees should they incline bench instead of focusing on training with good form and staying consistent.
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  6. #96
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    This is such a great post!!! It is very true and certainly what I have observed with my own training. Thanks for the practical reminder
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit!
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  7. #97
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    Originally Posted by VoxExMachina View Post
    Really, the core of any decent routine is the same. To keep the magazines interesting, they put everything in a hat, mix it around and then reconstruct 1,387,834 different routines from the same basic principles.

    The other theme of the magazines are situation-specific programs like "How to do a complete workout at home with only milk cartons" or something.
    I think some quite interesting articles could be made from simply looking at different people's needs. You could have routines for office workers with bad backs, routines for volleyballers to increase vertical jump and protect knees, routines for linebackers, routines for people who can't do a single pushup, and so on and so forth.

    But that would require thought and imagination instead of just reeling off another line of stringy sticky bullsht.
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  8. #98
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    Originally Posted by christinajane View Post
    This is such a great post!!! It is very true and certainly what I have observed with my own training. Thanks for the practical reminder

    Thanks for the reply. There's been a lot of over-thinking going on in the forums lately, too!




    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    I think some quite interesting articles could be made from simply looking at different people's needs. You could have routines for office workers with bad backs, routines for volleyballers to increase vertical jump and protect knees, routines for linebackers, routines for people who can't do a single pushup, and so on and so forth.

    But that would require thought and imagination instead of just reeling off another line of stringy sticky bullsht.
    If the "muscle" magazines wanted to be more helpful to the average population, that would probably be the way to go for at least one article a month. But instead it's "the 300 workout" or the "Wolverine Workout" or the "Ironman Workout" or similar nonsense. And half the time they're not even talking to the guy who really trained the star.
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  9. #99
    BRB, Bulking Forever. ricohitman's Avatar
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    Amazing post, OP. A MUST-READ.
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  10. #100
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    Originally Posted by jgreystoke View Post
    Over the course of two, three years, their results are usually far worse. [...]

    Most people never get beyond the novice stage, in terms of muscle and strength, no matter how many years they have been training.
    It's true. Most can never get lifts like benching and rowing 100% their bodyweight, squatting 150%, and deadlifting 175%. So much so that they may claim it's impossible because they've some injury (an injury which strangely they never get treated), they're over 30, a woman, or whatever. Then they claim to know lots because they've been there so long. Yeah, and I was at high school eight years, it must have been because I was so smart.

    When I started up at my gym last year, I was benching 40kg and was impressed by the guy who benched in the 80s kg, he'd been there for years. 4-5 months later I was benching in the 80s kg and he was... doing the same. I was also squatting and deadlifting, nothing awesome but more than I'd done when I started. He couldn't squat because his shoulder hurt, interestingly it never hurt during bench press.

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  11. #101
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    Awesome post, should be mandatory reading for everybody.
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  12. #102
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    In to read later
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  13. #103
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    Awesome post, OP. This has really helped me as someone who is just getting into lifting and was getting extremely overwhelmed by all of the different forms of advice in workouts, supplements, etc. Thank you.

    I think I can relate to the mindset of this thread. I was fortunate to be a part of an amazing football program when I was younger. It was a typical program that had different weight limits for different ages and such. Countless championships were won on every level. There was truly a tradition of winning there. Pretty much every coach stuck to their own age level for years at a time, because why stray from something you know about and have experience with? Throughout all of the age levels, the ideas remained the same: simple, basic, fundamental football. Every playbook consisted of about 6 plays. From these plays there were obviously variations, but everything came back to those original plays. And every year teams found success.

    To sum up that rant, it's really about just sticking with the basics. Use what you know to your advantage, and don't worry about stupid extra stuff because it will only get in your way. We didn't need a triple reverse flea flicker to score a touchdown, just like you don't need to hang upside-down from a pull-up bar at exactly 45.7 degrees while doing DB curls to get the most out of your workout.
    Last edited by RewindByChance; 06-10-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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  14. #104
    Mod Squad VoxExMachina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RewindByChance View Post
    Awesome post, OP. This has really helped me as someone who is just getting into lifting and was getting extremely overwhelmed by all of the different forms of advice in workouts, supplements, etc. Thank you.

    I think I can related to the mindset of this thread. I was fortunate to be a part of an amazing football program when I was younger. It was a typical program that had different weight limits for different ages and such. Countless championships were won on every level. There was truly a tradition of winning there. Pretty much every coach stuck to their own age level for years at a time, because why stray from something you know about and have experience with? Throughout all of the age levels, the ideas remained the same: simple, basic, fundamental football. Every playbook consisted of about 6 plays. From these plays there were obviously variations, but everything came back to those original plays. And every year teams found success.

    To sum up that rant, it's really about just sticking with the basics. Use what you know to your advantage, and don't worry about stupid extra stuff because it will only get in your way. We didn't need a triple reverse flea flicker to score a touchdown, just like you don't need to hang upside-down from a pull-up bar at exactly 45.7 degrees while doing DB curls to get the most out of your workout.
    That's actually a very good analogy. Thanks for the contribution.
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  15. #105
    Fake Gorilla 400Lb Gorilla's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RewindByChance View Post
    Awesome post, OP. This has really helped me as someone who is just getting into lifting and was getting extremely overwhelmed by all of the different forms of advice in workouts, supplements, etc. Thank you.

    I think I can related to the mindset of this thread. I was fortunate to be a part of an amazing football program when I was younger. It was a typical program that had different weight limits for different ages and such. Countless championships were won on every level. There was truly a tradition of winning there. Pretty much every coach stuck to their own age level for years at a time, because why stray from something you know about and have experience with? Throughout all of the age levels, the ideas remained the same: simple, basic, fundamental football. Every playbook consisted of about 6 plays. From these plays there were obviously variations, but everything came back to those original plays. And every year teams found success.

    To sum up that rant, it's really about just sticking with the basics. Use what you know to your advantage, and don't worry about stupid extra stuff because it will only get in your way. We didn't need a triple reverse flea flicker to score a touchdown, just like you don't need to hang upside-down from a pull-up bar at exactly 45.7 degrees while doing DB curls to get the most out of your workout.
    excellent correlation breh. PM me i am on recharge. looks like you have a contender for stickies vox
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  16. #106
    Never give up ✘ whatevergirl's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    omg, this is the messiah of threads. Thank you for posting this...I like that 80/20 rule, and I think I fall into the obsessing over silly things that really in the long run, don't matter to one's overall success. I can't help but wonder why we do that? (or maybe that's just me)
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  17. #107
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    Originally Posted by whatevergirl View Post
    I can't help but wonder why we do that? (or maybe that's just me)
    because idle minds are dangerous minds, thats why.

    if u r naturally inclined to obsess, it might as well be aimed at something positive.

    maybe ppl have been missing the point of the hidden therapeutic value in that 'evil' 20% !

    view the bigger picture people!
    Last edited by gomez26; 06-10-2010 at 05:09 PM.
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  18. #108
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    Adding to what gomez wrote, the "bigger picture" is really nothing more than sticking to the basics, trying to add weight whenever possible, and eating right. You can't get much more basic than that.

    So many times I've read about guys asking: "What do you think of my four-day split?" and they weigh around 150 pounds and list all these "magic" supplements and so on. Now, I have nothing against reasonable supplementation and nothing against splits, but whenever someone who weighs 150 pounds and can't even bench his weight writes something like that, it doesn't make me laugh--it saddens me.

    Call me an old fart, but I really think the old-timers did it best. They ate basic food i.e. meat and veggies and bread and drank milk, they trained hard and as heavy as possible on all the major exericses, and they grew. Not monstrous by today's steroid standards, but they were big, quite strong, and healthy-looking. Granted, the old-timers like Park, Grimek, Reeves, Eiferman, and the others were genetic wonders for the most part, but they all had one thing in common: They trained hard and progressively, and that's where I think a lot of the kids today go wrong. Not all, mind you, but IMHO a lot.

    If the muscle mags really wanted to help the young dudes and dudettes of today, they'd publish something more or less along the lines of what Vox originally wrote. Sadly, for the most part (with the exception of Bill Starr and a couple of others) they won't.
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  19. #109
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    Originally Posted by GuyJin View Post
    If the muscle mags really wanted to help the young dudes and dudettes of today, they'd publish something more or less along the lines of what Vox originally wrote. Sadly, for the most part (with the exception of Bill Starr and a couple of others) they won't.
    ^^ this

    and why won't they, is the question??

    I read fitness magazines, and honestly...I have read snippits here and there regarding strength training, in general...but the advice given here today, never seems to be captured in one ''convenient'' spot (article)...like where you can take it all in at once. I don't know if I'm articulating that right.

    Seriously vox? I can't thank you enough. I don't want to be a figure competitor or anything, but the advice here can be for anyone...to take their routines to new levels. Or who just want to get leaner and stronger, for pete's sakes! You made it easy to understand...and digest. I think some fitness authors like to get too fancy or something. Complicate the process.

    Grazie!
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  20. #110
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    Whatevergirl,

    Why won't the mags publish the truth?

    Because most people can't handle the truth! (Yes, I'm channeling Jack Nicholson).

    The truth is, muscle growth, with the exception of the genetic elite, is a slow, gradual, and sometimes frustrating process. Today's generation wants it all NOW; someone said that in a previous post and he's right. We want instant gratification, instant results, and the mags play upon those desires. They publish the "Before/After" photos and I'm sure those men and women got those results, but notice the fine print: "Results will vary." "Use a good diet and exercise program." Not to mention that the models are usually in the industry, have been in great condition before, and are remunerated for their efforts.

    Do the young people out there know that? Some of them do and some don't. The bottom line is this for pretty much everyone: Work hard, train progressively, lift within your capabilities at that point in time, don't compare yourself to others, and keep at it. Vox, Ironwill, and a few others have been saying that ad infinitum and it's solid advice. As long as you find the diet/programme that suits you and you keep at it, then you will get what you are looking for.
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  21. #111
    Never give up ✘ whatevergirl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GuyJin View Post
    Whatevergirl,

    Why won't the mags publish the truth?

    Because most people can't handle the truth! (Yes, I'm channeling Jack Nicholson).

    The truth is, muscle growth, with the exception of the genetic elite, is a slow, gradual, and sometimes frustrating process. Today's generation wants it all NOW; someone said that in a previous post and he's right. We want instant gratification, instant results, and the mags play upon those desires. They publish the "Before/After" photos and I'm sure those men and women got those results, but notice the fine print: "Results will vary." "Use a good diet and exercise program." Not to mention that the models are usually in the industry, have been in great condition before, and are remunerated for their efforts.

    Do the young people out there know that? Some of them do and some don't. The bottom line is this for pretty much everyone: Work hard, train progressively, lift within your capabilities at that point in time, don't compare yourself to others, and keep at it. Vox, Ironwill, and a few others have been saying that ad infinitum and it's solid advice. As long as you find the diet/programme that suits you and you keep at it, then you will get what you are looking for.
    So true! You know what I think? lol What vox has posted here is hard to follow, but simple advice...you know? That's it, really. We live in a culture that wants the wonder pill to lose weight...the wonder pill to get this or that result. Nothing brings results except a healthy diet, and HARD CONSISTENT WORK. Period. While I'm not 'new' to weight lifting, I'm more into running and cycling...and the same advice I've read in this thread...can carry over to ANY sport, really. That's the problem with people today though...they want a quick fix. Come on...you look at the pros and people really think there's an 'easy' way to look like THAT?? haha Seriously? Really?

    So...yes, you are so right...and while it definitely takes patience, which I gravely lack at times ...the end results, when you know you're working your arse off...is just so beyond words. That feeling of earning your results. Thanks for the reply, Guy.
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  22. #112
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    Originally Posted by whatevergirl View Post
    ^^ this

    and why won't they, is the question??

    I read fitness magazines, and honestly...I have read snippits here and there regarding strength training, in general...but the advice given here today, never seems to be captured in one ''convenient'' spot (article)...like where you can take it all in at once. I don't know if I'm articulating that right......

    I think some fitness authors like to get too fancy or something. Complicate the process.

    Grazie!
    Thanks, guys. I appreciate the positive feedback.

    The reason magazines are all over the place with advice is because frankly, reality is pretty boring. You can't write dozens of monthly articles, every month, separate yourself from other magazines, and sell add space by running the same advice every month. Everyone would be able to buy about two or three magazines and have all the advice they could probably every use. That's not going to keep people coming back to the information trough for very long.

    We also live in a society where "newer is better" and we look to technology to make things simple and easy. That's great, but when it comes to bodybuilding what works today is basically what's always worked, and most "technology" (legal supplements, fancy machines, etc.) isn't really all that much of a benefit. Granted, we know more now about what makes the basics work, but it's easy to get carried away with the science. (Like some study showing that squats cause the body to produce extra growth hormones, and suddenly thinking that the amount produced is so significant that we only have to do squats.)
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  23. #113
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    I will say, every beginner should read Robert Kennedy's 1001 Muscle Building Tips (you get it free with a subscription to MuscleMag). The first chapter provides answers to 90% of the most common questions we see on here.
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  24. #114
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    Originally Posted by whatevergirl View Post
    I think I fall into the obsessing over silly things that really in the long run, don't matter to one's overall success. I can't help but wonder why we do that? (or maybe that's just me)
    Originally Posted by gomez26 View Post
    because idle minds are dangerous minds, thats why.

    if u r naturally inclined to obsess, it might as well be aimed at something positive.

    maybe ppl have been missing the point of the hidden therapeutic value in that 'evil' 20% !

    view the bigger picture people!



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  25. #115
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    Great!

    Definitely a great post. I always see people on here that over analyze just about everything. Bodybuilding boils down to consistency, a clean diet, and hard ass work in the gym. Let it be that and don't make yourself crazy about the little things!!!
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  26. #116
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    Why isn't this a sticky yet? This should be on every fitness related website.
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    Originally Posted by All_too_Human View Post
    Why isn't this a sticky yet? This should be on every fitness related website.
    Because the serious people figure it out regardless. There is enough info already on the web 10 times over. The rest will never get it regardless how many stickies are made.
    Dont think. Just do it.
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  28. #118
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    Great Post!
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  29. #119
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    I will say, every beginner should read Robert Kennedy's 1001 Muscle Building Tips (you get it free with a subscription to MuscleMag). The first chapter provides answers to 90% of the most common questions we see on here.
    That's still probably about 900 tips more than you need.



    Originally Posted by wheels30 View Post
    Definitely a great post. I always see people on here that over analyze just about everything. Bodybuilding boils down to consistency, a clean diet, and hard ass work in the gym. Let it be that and don't make yourself crazy about the little things!!!
    Thanks, Wheels.
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  30. #120
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    Originally Posted by VoxExMachina View Post
    That's still probably about 900 tips more than you need.
    Yep, it covers anything and everything.
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