Creatine Nitrate vs Monohydrate

[michael3435]

what is an optimal dose for CN? is the 1g in CM2 enough to elicit an appreciable difference?

1-2g on workout days only. i would add some mono or other type of creatine on top of that if you want to become saturated. if you dont, its no big deal, you still get the great vasodilation effects which will encourage muscle growth on its own.

[hyp_gnosis]

No Hype - I was wondering if if the Creatine Nitrate is hydrolyzed in the gut into Creatine (Mono?) and Nitrate?

[Hardingxx]

One is a vasodilator and the other isn't. I wouldn't recommend either at your age.

Creatine... Honestly.....

[bjc12]

You 16. You should not be concerning yourself with such things.


Stick with Mono.

sounds pretty hypocritical. one sentence says don't concern yourself with such things, then advising mono. hmmm? might as well suggest nitrate too just to cover all the bases.

[M Savin]

Creatine Nitrate sounds cool. I wonder how well it works.

[davidl351]

Creatine Nitrate sounds cool. I wonder how well it works.

only one way to find out.

[hyp_gnosis]

only one way to find out.

However, I am curious as to whether the Nitrate even needs to be bonded to the Creatine.

What would prevent a company from using Creatine Monohydrate and say potassium Nitrate in combination?

Seems to me that Creatine has it's MOA and Nitrate has a separate MOA.

Unless the Cr+Nitrate acts like a di-peptide similarly to say Magnesium Creatine Chelate with the potential to improve assimilation, I question what the benefits are beyond Mono plus other Nitrate bonded ingredients?

I personally don't know too much about Nitrate bonded ingredients and am hoping someone more knowledgeable than myself can clarify the advantages in a succinct manner.

[Adjusting]

Creatine... Honestly.....

Yeah

[Peter LeDrew]

Guys, you really want to have Vitamin C at the very least and even better also NAC, in the presence of nitrates, to maximize the benefits of nitrates as well as to prevent nitrate tolerance... only Thermolife has these two ingredients from everything I have seen and AOR added Vitamin C to their blood pressure support formula for this very reason also:

http://www.aor.ca/html/products.php?id=215
The formula also includes vitamin C, which has been shown to help ensure the effectiveness of nitrate supplementation. Over time, supplementation with nitrates can become less effective, a condition called nitrate tolerance. However, research has shown that co-supplementation with vitamin C prevents tolerance from developing.


You can also see the bb.com writeup for C-Bol here:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/thermo/cbol.html


While it is great and all adding in potentially useful ingredients to a formula, it is much better when knowledgeable minds are behind their development, with a sound understanding of the ingredients, potential synergy and potential pitfalls. All to often I find the bb'ing industry is plagued by too many who just don't have a complete understanding of the ingredients they use... this is simply one small example and not looking to point out any company in particular or pick on anyone, but Thermolife with Bane and AOR with I believe possibly Dr. Traj Nibber are definitely stand outs in regards to formulation. This is a much bigger problem than just with nitrates, but they are a new and obvious example to point out this issue.


Of course, the average consumer may not even pick up on such crucial details in formulations, except to perhaps stumble upon their use with excellent effects, but really it is the ingredient in question that is usually what stands out to most consumers, not always the formulation as a whole... when it should be the formulation that is the star... the combination of smaller heroes that support the superstar and make it shine.

[cxm]

There are two products by SAN that also contain creatine nitrate; one is Fierce, the other is CM2 Nitrate.

And the third to be very soon is Launch....

[Peter LeDrew]

However, I am curious as to whether the Nitrate even needs to be bonded to the Creatine.

What would prevent a company from using Creatine Monohydrate and say potassium Nitrate in combination?

Seems to me that Creatine has it's MOA and Nitrate has a separate MOA.

Unless the Cr+Nitrate acts like a di-peptide similarly to say Magnesium Creatine Chelate with the potential to improve assimilation, I question what the benefits are beyond Mono plus other Nitrate bonded ingredients?

I personally don't know too much about Nitrate bonded ingredients and am hoping someone more knowledgeable than myself can clarify the advantages in a succinct manner.

I can't answer your question 100%, but I do know that potassium nitrate in a formula like AOR's Blood Pressure Support does work well pre-workout... I also like their Greens n Berries... I also know C-Bol is an effective creatine formula that adds numerous synergistic ingredients that allows the formula to work better as a whole... if looking for a creatine and esp. one in a pill form it is hard to beat C-Bol... an excellent choice and worth checking out.

[Adjusting]

And the third to be very soon is Launch....

And some logs too.

[hyp_gnosis]

I can't answer your question 100%, but I do know that potassium nitrate in a formula like AOR's Blood Pressure Support does work well pre-workout... I also like their Greens n Berries... I also know C-Bol is an effective creatine formula that adds numerous synergistic ingredients that allows the formula to work better as a whole... if looking for a creatine and esp. one in a pill form it is hard to beat C-Bol... an excellent choice and worth checking out.

Thanks for the detailed feedback Peter. I always enjoy your responses and your very evident passion for products.
Be careful pimping Thermolife, some might think you are a Thermolife Shill along with AOR and AEN. LOL. And yes that is a joke.

What is the length of time one can be on nitrates before they experience nitrate tolerance?

What I am trying to determine is how Creatine Nitrate is more effective than say Creatine Monohydrate and another nitrate bonded ingredient?

I'm sure Creatine Nitrate sounds novel and it's all shiny and new so everyone wants to play with it. I on the other hand am not certain that bonding creatine to a nitrate or anything else for that matter will justify using these ingredients when potentially other less exciting and potentially cheaper nitrate sources combined with basic "no frills" creatine monohydrate, bcaas and antioxidants will do the job.

If, the creatine and nitrate are hydrolyzed in the gut then what is the point of paying top dollar for what ultimately results in Creatine and Nitrate in the end? Hopefully, Bane or No Hype can clarify this for me.

Please note I am asking out of the spirit of inquiry. This material is so new for me that I am trying to understand it more fully.

[bigla2004]

A few things:

1) Great post peter.. even though you are supporting us in it, I have always commended you for your approach at looking at the ingredient profile, and not the label claims and seeing why / how it might work.

2) Hyp_gnosis- you could post your question up on our forums and I'm sure bane / dr_p could get to it and give you a better explanation than I ever could. However, purely anecdotally, I have enjoyed my experience with creatine nitrate, in both SAN Fierce and C-BOL tremendously in comparison to all other types of creatine I've tried.. the only other that compares is clout

[IronSyndicate]

I think its a great creatine... too bad I couldnt tolerate the headaches.

I tried different dosing protocols, increased my water intake levels, tried it with food, and got the same result, a pounding headache. I fought thru it and finished the bottle. I was able to gain some lost strenght after a long cut.

I would try it again, but the headaches sucked big time.

[hyp_gnosis]

A few things:

1) Great post peter.. even though you are supporting us in it, I have always commended you for your approach at looking at the ingredient profile, and not the label claims and seeing why / how it might work.

2) Hyp_gnosis- you could post your question up on our forums and I'm sure bane / dr_p could get to it and give you a better explanation than I ever could. However, purely anecdotally, I have enjoyed my experience with creatine nitrate, in both SAN Fierce and C-BOL tremendously in comparison to all other types of creatine I've tried.. the only other that compares is clout

Can you please notify them of my questions and have them answer on this forum?

[bigla2004]

Can you please notify them of my questions and have them answer on this forum?

Lazy ... but I have notified them.

[ogeorgeko]

You 16. You should not be concerning yourself with such things.


Stick with Mono.

god that was a stupid answer, what does his age have to do with the two different types of creatine?

[SupaNatural]

I think its a great creatine... too bad I couldnt tolerate the headaches.

I tried different dosing protocols, increased my water intake levels, tried it with food, and got the same result, a pounding headache. I fought thru it and finished the bottle. I was able to gain some lost strenght after a long cut.

I would try it again, but the headaches sucked big time.

Oye, a moderate dose of caffeine helped some with this. You happen to try that?

[NickWeber]

question,
do classic " take on empty stomach" protocols for previos NO boost apply to nitrates especially creatine nitrate. things such as a protein shake, is there a time frame which to avoid taking (c-bol) or will the absoption be unaffected?

[hyp_gnosis]

Thanks for the response Bane.

Sorry I should have been more specific with the reference to the MCC. You are correct, it is not a di-peptide. My understanding is that it acts like a di-peptide and transports through the gut using the peptide transport mechanisms in the gut.

The points you raise regarding Cr Nitrate are very interesting. When will the study be completed?

[Bane]

Few months from now.

[SupaNatural]

question,
do classic " take on empty stomach" protocols for previos NO boost apply to nitrates especially creatine nitrate. things such as a protein shake, is there a time frame which to avoid taking (c-bol) or will the absoption be unaffected?

At least a half hour. Take your preworkout dose at least a half hour preworkout as well.

[NickWeber]

another question,
is there any NEED to cycle creatine nitrate?
are there any potential health problems that could arise form a continued cycle of say 8 - 16 weeks or should there be a break in between to help prevent a nitrate tolerance (i understand that the formulation is supposed to prevent tolerance, but still)?

[DR_P]

Just at 16 I didn't think he would need to concern himself with expensive supplements.

I'm not bashing C-bol by any means, I have a bottle on order now.

I just feel at the age he should be more concerned with his diet and training program than which creatine he thinks he needs.

this is absolutely correct. teenagers really should MUCH more take care of their diet and training and they don't need any advanced supps, except they are already competitive bodybuilders (which 99.999% of them are not).


FWIW, I am over 35 and at the moment I am taking 1 cap of C-BOL in the morning and 1 cap in the evening, just because it has really nice health- and performance promoting effects.

[Acetyl-CoA]

another question,
is there any NEED to cycle creatine nitrate?
are there any potential health problems that could arise form a continued cycle of say 8 - 16 weeks or should there be a break in between to help prevent a nitrate tolerance (i understand that the formulation is supposed to prevent tolerance, but still)?

I believe long-term use of nitrate-containing products can increase the risk of (mostly gastric) cancer due to the generation of nitrosamines from nitrates reacting with amine-containing compounds. Nitrosamines are infinitely more carcinogenic (insert six+ figure factor) than cigarette smoke. The same thing (essentially; nitrites are usually used in meats) makes bacon and other processed meats pretty darn unhealthy (as if the sodium content and saturated fat were not enough of a deterrent). I once calculated that eating four slices of pepperoni pizza gave you the equivalent carcinogenic bombardment as ~800 cigarettes.

What's the take-home point? Not that I am saying CN will do any of this with (relatively) short term use... but I am suggesting not to take the stuff all-year long.

However, Vitamin C very effectively reduces nitrosamine formation. Just be sure to take alot of Vitamin C and take it all day long as--unfortunately--you piss out any excess as the day wears on. Apparently Vitamic C is included in C-Bol, which is good because alot of the concerning nitrosamine formation takes place in the gut anyway.

[davidl351]

I believe long-term use of nitrate-containing products can increase the risk of (mostly gastric) cancer due to the generation of nitrosamines from nitrates reacting with amine-containing compounds. Nitrosamines are infinitely more carcinogenic (insert six+ figure factor) than cigarette smoke. The same thing (essentially; nitrites are usually used in meats) makes bacon and other processed meats pretty darn unhealthy (as if the sodium content and saturated fat were not enough of a deterrent). I once calculated that eating four slices of pepperoni pizza gave you the equivalent carcinogenic bombardment as ~800 cigarettes.

What's the take-home point? Not that I am saying CN will do any of this with (relatively) short term use... but I am suggesting not to take the stuff all-year long.

However, Vitamin C very effectively reduces nitrosamine formation. Just be sure to take alot of Vitamin C and take it all day long as--unfortunately--you piss out any excess as the day wears on. Apparently Vitamic C is included in C-Bol, which is good because alot of the concerning nitrosamine formation takes place in the gut anyway.

what time frame are you referring to when you say 'long term'? is the nitrate that is coupled with this creatine prone to form into nitrite the way nitrates found in vegetables are? will the nitrate in C-BOL turn into ammonia?

[Acetyl-CoA]

what time frame are you referring to when you say 'long term'? is the nitrate that is coupled with this creatine prone to form into nitrite the way nitrates found in vegetables are? will the nitrate in C-BOL turn into ammonia?

If you're looking for a number I'd say don't take more than two cycles a year... so one every six months for as long as your bodybuilding aspiration drive you to purchase pimped-out creatine (which a company rep above even admitted was simply a "salt" (not a covalent compound))

The nitrates would indeed be similar to those found in vegetables, which bombard the gut with (quantitatively) more nitrate than a normal serving of processed/preserved meat does nitrites. Where does it end up? Excreted or--unfortunately--incorporated into nitrosamine compounds in tissue and/or the gut. I believe most oxidized nitrate/nitrite is end-state biologically/metabolically inactive and is excreted unchanged in urine (that which has not reacted with amines).

Nitrate to ammonia conversion would (theoretically) require a hell of alot of reduction that our bodies dont do.

Please don't end your knowledge on nitrogen metabolism here... google it, read wikipedia and university articles until you are conent (if you are interested in learning about it).

[KTownGT]

If you're looking for a number I'd say don't take more than two cycles a year... so one every six months for as long as your bodybuilding aspiration drive you to purchase pimped-out creatine (which a company rep above even admitted was simply a "salt" (not a covalent compound))

The nitrates would indeed be similar to those found in vegetables, which bombard the gut with (quantitatively) more nitrate than a normal serving of processed/preserved meat does nitrites. Where does it end up? Excreted or--unfortunately--incorporated into nitrosamine compounds in tissue and/or the gut. I believe most oxidized nitrate/nitrite is end-state biologically/metabolically inactive and is excreted unchanged in urine (that which has not reacted with amines).

Nitrate to ammonia conversion would (theoretically) require a hell of alot of reduction that our bodies dont do.

Please don't end your knowledge on nitrogen metabolism here... google it, read wikipedia and university articles until you are conent (if you are interested in learning about it).

How does the Creatine being ionically bonded to a Nitrate reduce it's functionality?

Wouldn't the amount of Ascorbic Acid and other antioxidant's digested daily for most lifter's be more than enough to act as a Reducer for Nitrosamines?

I know I ingest a very high dose of Vitamin C daily from food, multi-v, and get a large dose of polyphenol's from green/black tea daily.

[Bane]

How does the Creatine being ionically bonded to a Nitrate reduce it's functionality?

It does not.