Building Muscle While Losing Fat- Can you really do it?

[Zeke5]

(If this is old news and on another thread here, please disregard but point out the other thread- Thanks!)

I've now entered the low calorie part of my plan and I've been wondering about muscle growth during bodyfat loss.

The way I've always understood it was:

1. Work out intensely plus high protein diet with mild calorie surplus equals muscle growth with some fat gain depending on how 'mild' your calorie surplus is (but no chance of fat loss).

2. Work out intensely plus high protein diet with mild calorie deficit equals fat loss with minimal muscle loss depending on how 'mild' your calorie deficit is (but no chance of muscle gain).

So do you need a calorie surplus for muscle growth or can it happen during a fat loss period in your training?

Thanks,

Zeke

[dbx]

Scroll down to the bottom if this page; you'll see 5 threads that deal with the very same subject. There are probably about 345,876,908,785 more though .

[Zeke5]

Scroll down to the bottom if this page; you'll see 5 threads that deal with the very same subject. There are probably about 345,876,908,785 more though .

Wow! You're right! Thanks!

Hadn't really looked at that before and just starting to plow through it...

... LOTS of differing opinions- I wonder if there has been some kind of actual study on it?

Will keep looking.

Zeke

[2nd_chance]

No.



That'll save you the trouble of reading all those threads. Of course, there are genetic exceptions.

[*STEVE*]

IMO yes you can ( I know I have in the past and still do now ) provided your diet and workout program are spot on.




Lots of threads on this that go either way , the search feature is your friend

[Fifty+]

(If this is old news and on another thread here, please disregard but point out the other thread- Thanks!)

I've now entered the low calorie part of my plan and I've been wondering about muscle growth during bodyfat loss.

The way I've always understood it was:

1. Work out intensely plus high protein diet with mild calorie surplus equals muscle growth with some fat gain depending on how 'mild' your calorie surplus is (but no chance of fat loss).

2. Work out intensely plus high protein diet with mild calorie deficit equals fat loss with minimal muscle loss depending on how 'mild' your calorie deficit is (but no chance of muscle gain).

So do you need a calorie surplus for muscle growth or can it happen during a fat loss period in your training?

Thanks,

Zeke

Maybe we could approach the question in a different manner. What if you were to ask yourself these three questions;
1. How can I go wrong giving 100% in the gym on a consistant basis?
2. How can I go wrong following the nutrition plan I developed, wheather to gain size or drop weight?
3. What do I want most from the low calorie plan I just started?

If building muscle size was your main concern you wouldn't be reducing calories. You can only be one person at a time, so accomplish this. If you adhere to question #1, you won't have to worry about your muscles. That leaves nutrition. Proteins and amino acids are extremely important to muscle/tissue growth/recomposing. Drop calories, think nutrients. Simply my opinion but if you give it all ya got and train your mouth, your physique seems to respond. You'll do fine.

[polishedball]

I think it depends on how much weight you have to lose. I found it pretty easy to cut weight and add muscle so far. I am sure it will get more difficult. I started at a weight of 247#'s with a max bench of 290. I am now around 213#'s and my max bench is 355. So I know I have added muscle and cut fat. It can be scene in the pics as well. My routine not much of one is in my journal here. I train mostly by feel intense and to failure.

[ejthomp]

......I started at a weight of 247#'s with a max bench of 290. I am now around 213#'s and my max bench is 355. So I know I have added muscle and cut fat. It can be scene in the pics as well........

You've lost 34 pounds of fat and gotten stronger. That doesn't mean you've added muscle.

In a year, I lost about 63 pounds of fat and gained maybe 3 pounds of muscle (bodyfat estimates are never accurate enough to know for sure). I got stronger the entire time. After I stopped trying to lose weight and started trying to gain muscle, I gained as much muscle in 2 months as I did in the previous 12.

[polishedball]

You've lost 34 pounds of fat and gotten stronger. That doesn't mean you've added muscle.

In a year, I lost about 63 pounds of fat and gained maybe 3 pounds of muscle (bodyfat estimates are never accurate enough to know for sure). I got stronger the entire time. After I stopped trying to lose weight and started trying to gain muscle, I gained as much muscle in 2 months as I did in the previous 12.

OK maybe the whole muscle thing confuses me. I just read in another thread you cant grow new muscle only what you have? But when I started my arms were 17.5 they are now 18 since fat has gone down muscle hasn;t grown? You can get stronger without adding muscle?

Sorry for being a noob just don't get it I guess. Honestly I don't care as I look better and feel better and that is what matters most to me.

[Philip81193]

In a literal sense, no, you can't. At any single moment in time you're either in a caloric excess or deficit. However, if you view 'at the same time' as being on a day by day scale, sure you can!

[mharrislove]

Wow! You're right! Thanks!

Hadn't really looked at that before and just starting to plow through it...

... LOTS of differing opinions- I wonder if there has been some kind of actual study on it?

Will keep looking.

Zeke

Hmm...the broscience is strong in this thread.

The short answer to your question is, "yes." However, the topic is controversial among bros and pros because the answer is conditional (e.g., baseline body comp, exercise mode, intensity, blah, blah, blah...).

There is also a general misunderstanding of the specialized role of macronutrients. Since most everyone knows that all macronutrients can be converted to energy, there seems to be the prevailing notion on the boards that every macronutrient is equivalent and interchangable. Therefore, folks generally answer this question based on their hunches and/or personal experience - not the data.

Also, you will hear the conventional wisdom that the human body (despite all of its physiological redundancies) cannot serve two masters at one time, when, in fact, it can serve multiple masters simultaneously. But it is certainly true - especially at the extremes of physical conditioning - that it's often just more efficient to serve one master at a time.

Yes, there is a study. Plug in "Muscle hypertrophy with large-scale weight loss and resistance training" by JE Donnelly, et al (1993) in PubMed and read away. Is the study perfect? "No." Is it credible and does it help to explain under what conditions lean body mass gains and simultaneous fat loss may occur? "Yes."

Good luck meeting your fitness goals.

[ejthomp]

..... You can get stronger without adding muscle?

......Honestly I don't care as I look better and feel better and that is what matters most to me.....

You look great BTW!!!! Obviously you've done a lot of lifting in the past and you have a lot of muscle memory helping you out so it isn't a fair comparison. The science of rebuilding muscle from memory versus building muscle from scratch intrigues me but I'm not smart enough to explain it.

Losing fat and rebuilding muscle at the same time seems to work for body builders coming off a layoff, but losing fat and adding fresh muscle seems to be much, much more difficult if not near impossible.

[Zevier]

You cant.

Focus on fat loss opposed to a goal of building muscle, you'll look lean and when you become leaner you create the illusion that you're alot more muscular, that's called the lean threshold, typically what happens is when you go above 13% body fat you don't look any different between 13% body fat and 18% body fat it's not until you dip down into 12, 11, 10% and lower specifically is when you actually start appearing more muscular. One of the best ways to focus on building muscle and burning fat, is to just focus on losing fat and it'll look like you built more muscle.

[_XYDREX_]

There's a reasonable limit to everything. And you cant take an idea & extrapolate it indefinitely.

There are many differing opinions on this because there are many different categories of fat levels (& also genetic differences between people).

Consider these categories:

1/. Carrying excess fat. Many people due to poor eating habits & inactivity carry excess fat. This is fat that can be lost relatively easily with a bit of discipline & without too much effort or distress.

2/. Healthy average level of fat comparable to sedentary people who are active but not excessively athletic.

3/. Lean & athletic - can start to see visible ab development.

4/. Very lean 'hard'

5/. Beyond very lean - i.e ripped, contest etc.

I think you can gain considerable muscle and lose fat if you are in category 1, especially for beginners. When you carry excess fat that is not necessary to build or support muscle growth, you can drop it if you do it gradually.

I believe somewhere in the range of categories 2 & 3 are optimal for muscle growth. Where exactly you are in this range will depend on genetics. If you drop below this level of fat, it would require substantial effort & you will start to compromise muscle growth.

Category 4 would be the goal for maintaining muscle mass, while leaning out.

In category 5 you have to accept some muscle loss & your goal would be to minimize muscle losses while leaning out.

You need to maintain a certain level of fat to build muscle. The body detects absolute levels of fat, not so much gradual rates of change. So as long as you carry above a certain minimum level of fat you can build muscle. The whole surplus / deficit approach is a good simplification but should not be taken too literally (unless its too much too sudden of course).

But the fact that you can drop some fat while you build muscle in category 1 does not mean you can get uber jacked while getting shredded at the same time. Like I said there is a reasonable limit to everything. There are some genetic freaks that are ripped & stay ripped (or get ripped) while building mass but they are the exceptions to these general guidelines.

Once you are somewhere in the range of categories 2 & 3 you can start to 'bulk' optimally. This is another controversial issue with people always asking is it really necessary to gain fat when you build muscle. During a bulk from this point the aim should be to gain both muscle & fat in a ratio that does not change your bf%. So someone at 10%bf (a bit lean but just to keep the numbers simple) should gain 9 parts muscle to 1 part fat to stay at 10%. So for a 200lb'er (20lbs of fat) to gain 10 'lean' pounds should gain 1lb fat & 9lbs muscle (210lbs with 21lbs fat still at 10%).

There really is no justification for your bf% to go up during a bulk unless you are coming from categories 4 or 5. Likewise if you are coming from category 1, a pure muscle gain with no change in absolute fat levels can drop your bf% into the good category.

[feltmann]

But when I started my arms were 17.5 they are now 18 since fat has gone down muscle hasn;t grown? You can get stronger without adding muscle?

You can get stronger without mass gains due to neural adaption, but clearly you have added muscle as well. It goes with like the above post, if its needless excess fat it can be lost while gaining muscle.

[gomez26]

OK maybe the whole muscle thing confuses me. I just read in another thread you cant grow new muscle only what you have? But when I started my arms were 17.5 they are now 18 since fat has gone down muscle hasn;t grown? You can get stronger without adding muscle?

Sorry for being a noob just don't get it I guess. Honestly I don't care as I look better and feel better and that is what matters most to me.

You arms went up from creatine bloat.




j/k great job

[Mr. Someday]

I'm going to say yes not based off of scientific fact or anything, just the simple fact that I've done it on more than one occasion. Takes extreme discipline, but it can be done. Here's an old thread where I showed, with pics, what I did over the course of a year.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=940182

[Marius_Ursus]

People always cite that you can't because to burn fat you have to be in a caloric deficit and to grow you have to be in a caloric surplus, but the body doesn't exist in stasis. While it's always trying to acheive a stasis, it's constantly in flux.

It also takes several weeks to train your body to start burning fat before the real body changes can start taking place. On top of that, it takes 3500 calories to burn a pound of fat, and that happens (normally) over several days.

Fat loss and muscle building also - from what I understand about hormone release - do not happen simultaneously, but within a 24 hour period you will theoretically be able to do both because the hormones at play are different.

Happen at the same time? To the naked eye looking in the mirror, yes. Simultaneously according to circadian rhythms of hormone release? No.

[ectoBgone]

Here's an old thread where I showed, with pics, what I did over the course of a year.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=940182

The thread is worth reading in its own rights, if not for this quote alone:

When I start falling into that "instinctive" training and "changing things up" stuff, I find that I am simply masking the fact that I am making no progress. How do you know if you are progressing if you keep changing things? I didn't know and I wasn't. Now I do...it is black and white when I hit the gym...beat the weight, reps or both...period. Force yourself to grow.

Thanks for the link. It's nice to go back and read some of the good stuff I missed while eating Yodels on the couch.

[delineator]

People always cite that you can't because to burn fat you have to be in a caloric deficit and to grow you have to be in a caloric surplus, but the body doesn't exist in stasis. While it's always trying to acheive a stasis, it's constantly in flux.


Fat loss and muscle building also - from what I understand about hormone release - do not happen simultaneously, but within a 24 hour period you will theoretically be able to do both because the hormones at play are different.

.

True , people are now testing out diets that are in surplus for a few days then in deficit for another few days out of the week. Dont know how well this will work though, consistency has always shown to be better in the past but who knows what they'll find.

[dutter]

your doing a good job. yes it can be done but it usually takes longer and requires some paitence

[rob440]

I say Yes! Based on my personal experience. I took a long vacation from training once for several years. When I started back at the gym I was a jolly 240lbs. After a year or so of hard work my waist was around 4 inches smaller but i was still @ near 240.

Fat is stored energy so why couldn't the extra calories/energy required to build muscle be subsidized by burning stored fat? Stored energy new energy what does the body care where it comes from?

[mharrislove]

Fat is stored energy so why couldn't the extra calories/energy required to build muscle be subsidized by burning stored fat? Stored energy new energy what does the body care where it comes from?

There are reasons why stored calories do not build muscle in this way, but you make a good point - stored fat can do the job of "new cals" when it comes to the generation of ATP while in a caloric deficit.

Of course, this insight will not stop someone else from posting in this thread something about "cals in, cals out" or the requirement of "surplus cals." Oh, well...

[Most Muscular]

Fat is stored energy so why couldn't the extra calories/energy required to build muscle be subsidized by burning stored fat? Stored energy new energy what does the body care where it comes from?

This would all be fine and dandy if muscles were made from fat but they are made from protein! You can store fat and you can store protein but the only place your body stores protein is in your existing muscles. So.... if you don't feed your body protein on a regular basis your body, if it needs protein to repair a damaged muscle after a workout, will get the protein by breaking down another muscle in your body to repair. I call it the "Peter/Paul principle" of Peter robbing Paul to get what it needs.

On a low calorie, low fat, low carb, but high protein diet your body can convert fat and protein into energy when it is lacking carbs. That is why low carb diets also work because the body used more energy for this process. With a high protein diet your body will also be muscle sparing in that it won't have to rob itself to repair itself.

Trying to lose fat and gain muscle is possible but NOT a very efficient way of losing fat or gaining muscle. Your progress will be minimal at best and if you're looking for fast improvements they aren't going to happen. I'm going through this stage at the moment trying to get back into shape (muscle wise) but also trying to lose body fat for an upcoming vacation. The progress is VERY slow but I do not want to lose my muscle mass by going to hog wild on my diet, yet if I eat anymore I'll tend to gain body fat. I just have to have patience.

nuff said...

[KyleAaron]

I think it depends on how much weight you have to lose.

As this illustrates so well, you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time if you begin as overfat.

Losing fat requires an energy deficit - you consume less than you expend. Gaining muscle requires an energy surplus - you consume more than you expend. Impossible to have a deficit and surplus at the same time, right?

Well, no. If you are overfat, then your energy deficit from less food gets made up by your surplus fat. That's one of the jobs of fat, to be spare energy in lean times.

If as a male you have 25+% bodyfat then you can have a deficit in your diet and still gain muscle, the needed energy comes from your bodyfat. This works until you get down to around 15% or so then it plateaus. For women it's more like 35+% and 20-25%. Once your bodyfat reaches that ideal middle-range you have to choose: gain fat and gain muscle (bulking) or lose fat and maintain muscle (cutting).

The exception of low-middle bodyfat still losing fat and gaining muscle requires a lot of fiddling about with the diet and training, and is essentially not worth the trouble unless you're aiming at a profession that requires a certain physique, eg fitness model.

[delineator]

This would all be fine and dandy if muscles were made from fat but they are made from protein! You can store fat and you can store protein but the only place your body stores protein is in your existing muscles. So.... if you don't feed your body protein on a regular basis your body, if it needs protein to repair a damaged muscle after a workout, will get the protein by breaking down another muscle in your body to repair. I call it the "Peter/Paul principle" of Peter robbing Paul to get what it needs.

When you have excess needless fat, I think its more a case it not being replenished when you gradually start to cut it down. You need x-amount of calories to cover your energy requirements, y-amount extra to grow muscle, then an extra amount still to replenish the fat

[NatureGrrrl]

Based on my own experience I would say yes, but it has taken me close to 6 months. I have always had a very strong upper body and remain muscular even when I am not lifting for long periods of a time. My problem area has always been lower body which I have been working on diligently for the past 6 months. I have put on an inch on each thigh but my waist has remained the same size as before. Of course, I have not been in a cutting mode during this time period and eat just enough to maintain so it has been very gradual but worked for me which is welcome indeed because I don't do well when I am eating to gain or lose but rather just maintain.

[homerfit]

Eat, Lift, Rest = GROWTH
Starve, Lift, Rest= LESS GROWTH

Lets not make it so complicated!!!!

[_XYDREX_]

its more a case it not being replenished when you gradually start to cut it down. You need x-amount of calories to cover your energy requirements, y-amount extra to grow muscle, then an extra amount still to replenish the fat

I dont agree with this. Fat is storage it doesnt have to be 'replenished' per se. If you eat to just cover your energy output (& say to cover any muscle growth) your fat levels will remain unchanged. You dont really need to eat extra to 'maintain' your fat. If you eat extra you will store even more fat - Thats the whole point of storage. Yes there is some caloric requirement to maintain each pound of fat but its minimal (compared to muscle) - A pound of muscle will take about 50 calories to maintain for a day while the pound of fat will take only about 2 calories to maintain per day

You have to go into deficit to use up your fat. You are implying fat will passively breakdown if it doesnt get replenished. Thats not the case to any significant extent- it will pretty much stay there until it gets actively used - i.e. there's a demand for it.

The question here is can you still build muscle while using your fat supplies to cover at least some of your energy demands. As I said I believe if you are carrying excess fat it can be done up to a point where it would get too difficult once you become athletically lean.

When you start using your own fat supply for energy the concern is the body enters a different state. In this state the body will want to conserve energy (metabolism drop etc) which is not the ideal anabolic state since muscle is metabolically expensive, and gains in muscle will raise metabolism . So definitely the rate of muscle growth will be less, but still viable within a certain limit. These are general trends, but the point is if you carry excess fat the trends will not have a very large magnitude in that range, compared to once you get very lean. Thats when things become critical & the body's top concern will be conserving.

I think day-to-day timing would play a big role. So eat carbs to have glycogen prior to the workout then eat less during the rest of the day so your body uses some of its fat for everyday activities. Gradually is the key.

Eat, Lift, Rest = GROWTH
Starve, Lift, Rest= LESS GROWTH

Lets not make it so complicated!!!!

Some people would like to get results quicker to lose excess fat while gaining muscle at the same time, thats why. Not necessarily aim to have maximum muscle mass.