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    Commies and religious nuts are the same

    they both claim to be selfless, people loving bunch. ask them to donate half of their check, guess what, they won't
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    Originally Posted by againstall0dds View Post
    they both claim to be selfless, people loving bunch. ask them to donate half of their check, guess what, they won't
    Why are the leaders all have questionable intelligence?
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    Originally Posted by againstall0dds View Post
    they both claim to be selfless, people loving bunch. ask them to donate half of their check, guess what, they won't
    Capitalism is like a ancient Norse religion in that rapist-warriors types seek fame and fortune as a tribute to the gods and the goal is to die with a sword in your hand. In modern times money and material possesions are the "sword" and fame seeking remains the same.

    Any economic system which doesn't actually work well is a de facto religion because in the face of logic, people choose fantasy.

    Meanwhile, you have communism wrong. It's a "workers state" where the people who do the labor decide the direction of the country instead of rich unskilled people who don't actually do anything.
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    Originally Posted by TheAdlerian View Post
    Capitalism is like a ancient Norse religion in that rapist-warriors types seek fame and fortune as a tribute to the gods and the goal is to die with a sword in your hand. In modern times money and material possesions are the "sword" and fame seeking remains the same.

    Any economic system which doesn't actually work well is a de facto religion because in the face of logic, people choose fantasy.

    Meanwhile, you have communism wrong. It's a "workers state" where the people who do the labor decide the direction of the country instead of rich unskilled people who don't actually do anything.
    Will true Communism ever be implemented though?

    As far as I'm concerned with power comes corruption, with the somewhat limited government we have now we have plenty of corruption.

    How bad will it be when they have full control?
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    Originally Posted by againstall0dds View Post
    they both claim to be selfless, people loving bunch. ask them to donate half of their check, guess what, they won't
    Why do we have to donate half our check? Pretty easy to expects others to donate their money, huh.

    You probably dont give jack, yet complain when christians give(only?) 10%
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  7. #7
    Registered User TheAdlerian's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    Will true Communism ever be implemented though?

    As far as I'm concerned with power comes corruption, with the somewhat limited government we have now we have plenty of corruption.

    How bad will it be when they have full control?
    I doubt that we'll ever see a perfect anything, but there's no harm in trying and realizing that you're shooting for the best. Capitalism is like the lowest form of human behavior system, even for honest people. My dad ran a business and he was super honest, tried to buy American, and all of it. But, he was still trying to get the cheapest product and marking it up to make max profit, and of course lying about that to the consumer, which is what you must do to sell. In addition, my dad couldn't have made the products he sold to save his life. Yet, he was deadly honest in making sure said products were of the highest quality with zero flaws.

    That's nice, but he was doing that out of ethics, but also business interest. So, even the nicest person in business must hustle, lie, and be selfish, unless they have some bizarre scheme to just break even, and that doesn't exist.

    I like the idea of a worker's state because it would be about making the best products and not making endless profit driven crap. That would mean less waste and vast amounts of free time for us all. I believe that would increase family happiness and would allow creative inventor types lots of free time to do so. In our system a very smart person could be working and getting exhausted at some crap job and his genius is suppressed. Also, there's lots of family problems in our culture because two people must work their brains out to make rich do nothings lots of money and it crates suffering.
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by TheAdlerian View Post
    I doubt that we'll ever see a perfect anything, but there's no harm in trying and realizing that you're shooting for the best. Capitalism is like the lowest form of human behavior system, even for honest people. My dad ran a business and he was super honest, tried to buy American, and all of it. But, he was still trying to get the cheapest product and marking it up to make max profit, and of course lying about that to the consumer, which is what you must do to sell. In addition, my dad couldn't have made the products he sold to save his life. Yet, he was deadly honest in making sure said products were of the highest quality with zero flaws.

    That's nice, but he was doing that out of ethics, but also business interest. So, even the nicest person in business must hustle, lie, and be selfish, unless they have some bizarre scheme to just break even, and that doesn't exist.

    I like the idea of a worker's state because it would be about making the best products and not making endless profit driven crap. That would mean less waste and vast amounts of free time for us all. I believe that would increase family happiness and would allow creative inventor types lots of free time to do so. In our system a very smart person could be working and getting exhausted at some crap job and his genius is suppressed. Also, there's lots of family problems in our culture because two people must work their brains out to make rich do nothings lots of money and it crates suffering.
    How to people get their supplies for their daily life in a ? Who is going to determine the cost? What if

    Are people able to buy things to enjoy themselves such as xbox 360 in a communistic society? How are these distributed?

    Personally I usually buy what is in my opinion the best product. But we are not always able to do so as the difference between a cheap and a "good" product can be huge.

    If the person is smart don't they realize that they are being oppressed? Isn't it up to them to change that.

    What is preventing the formation of a upper class?

    Is everyone seen a equal? IE a McDonald's worker compared to a Doctor

    I really don't know much about communism at all if you didn't notice
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    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    How to people get their supplies for their daily life in a ? Who is going to determine the cost? What if
    I assume there would have to be some kind of census and actuarial table to determine who needs what at the min. At the max, the same would hold true but with more options. Imagine that once every ten years there's design competitions for the best living room set, TV, etc and then the top three are made and you get to vote and pick.

    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    Are people able to buy things to enjoy themselves such as xbox 360 in a communistic society? How are these distributed?
    Sure, if people wanted to design and make such a system. Let's say that no one really wants to play baseball anymore, then the gear would stop being made on a mass scale.

    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    Personally I usually buy what is in my opinion the best product. But we are not always able to do so as the difference between a cheap and a "good" product can be huge.
    In a worker's state there would be no reason to make cheap products. So, there would be less waste and product you bought today might last for decades or a lifetime. Make a small surplus of the items and you have a stock of replacements in case of damage.

    This would eliminate the need for many people to work and so humans could concentrate on living and relationships instead of slaving away, and then could do so in modern convenience.

    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    If the person is smart don't they realize that they are being oppressed? Isn't it up to them to change that.
    No. We can easily see through looking at cultures that humans are conditioned machines as proposed by Behaviorism. All the people in Islamic countries aren't crazy morons as compared to the people in Denmark who are rational and egalitarian. Rather, they have been conditioned by a variety of means to believe and act as if a fantasy world is real, and they will defend it to the death.

    Sane people, ethically, should be helping insane people.

    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    What is preventing the formation of a upper class?
    The same thing that prevents the formation of a worker's state now, conditioning, pressure, and laws. If a worker's states was formed the people would have to work hard to stop elitism, which is something some humans enjoy and it's something some innocent humans are easily cowed by.

    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    Is everyone seen a equal? IE a McDonald's worker compared to a Doctor
    Since everyone is working to promote the welfare for their fellow citizen, yes. Since everyone would have access to high quality goods there would be little need to compete against one's neighbor since everyone would have great sets of comforts. Incentive isn't needed for the jobs you mentioned because there is no way that a person who could only work making burgers could be a doctor and a person interested in biology and helping cure people would not take a job making burgers, because that would not provide intellectual stimulation for him.

    A guy like Donald Trump is a capitalist rapist who is interested in owning places that cheat people at gambling, and using land to make golf courses, he would have no place there and perhaps would be good at the burger joint. It could be the case that he was made corrupt by money and would have made a great doctor.

    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    I really don't know much about communism at all if you didn't notice
    Few people do and they're taught in the US that it's all about total sharing of everything and a impossible utopia. In reality, it's about getting away from endless production and not serving this tiny minority of rich people. It's completely doable.
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    Many people hate communism because when communism is taught in school it is usually focusing on people like Stalin who wernt implementing communism properly while also focusing on the bad side of communism . They dont focus on the fact that it places like Cuba communism has helped many people. Batista was far worser than Castro and under communist rule people can have free edjucation nad healthcare.It is very difficult to implement as people naturally under any rule can become corrupt.
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    Originally Posted by eccoblaster View Post
    They dont focus on the fact that it places like Cuba communism has helped many people.
    which is why tens of thousands of people flee cuba for the US right?
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    Originally Posted by eccoblaster View Post
    Many people hate communism because when communism is taught in school it is usually focusing on people like Stalin who wernt implementing communism properly while also focusing on the bad side of communism . They dont focus on the fact that it places like Cuba communism has helped many people. Batista was far worser than Castro and under communist rule people can have free edjucation nad healthcare.It is very difficult to implement as people naturally under any rule can become corrupt.
    Many people hate Communism because it has never worked and forces an ideology on an entire population when it is tried. Communism is good intentions put in the hands of retards grabbing for power.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by eccoblaster View Post
    Many people hate communism because when communism is taught in school it is usually focusing on people like Stalin who wernt implementing communism properly while also focusing on the bad side of communism . They dont focus on the fact that it places like Cuba communism has helped many people. Batista was far worser than Castro and under communist rule people can have free edjucation nad healthcare.It is very difficult to implement as people naturally under any rule can become corrupt.
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    Originally Posted by TheAdlerian View Post
    I assume there would have to be some kind of census and actuarial table to determine who needs what at the min. At the max, the same would hold true but with more options. Imagine that once every ten years there's design competitions for the best living room set, TV, etc and then the top three are made and you get to vote and pick.

    Sure, if people wanted to design and make such a system. Let's say that no one really wants to play baseball anymore, then the gear would stop being made on a mass scale.

    In a worker's state there would be no reason to make cheap products. So, there would be less waste and product you bought today might last for decades or a lifetime. Make a small surplus of the items and you have a stock of replacements in case of damage.

    This would eliminate the need for many people to work and so humans could concentrate on living and relationships instead of slaving away, and then could do so in modern convenience.

    No. We can easily see through looking at cultures that humans are conditioned machines as proposed by Behaviorism. All the people in Islamic countries aren't crazy morons as compared to the people in Denmark who are rational and egalitarian. Rather, they have been conditioned by a variety of means to believe and act as if a fantasy world is real, and they will defend it to the death.

    Sane people, ethically, should be helping insane people.

    The same thing that prevents the formation of a worker's state now, conditioning, pressure, and laws. If a worker's states was formed the people would have to work hard to stop elitism, which is something some humans enjoy and it's something some innocent humans are easily cowed by.

    Since everyone is working to promote the welfare for their fellow citizen, yes. Since everyone would have access to high quality goods there would be little need to compete against one's neighbor since everyone would have great sets of comforts. Incentive isn't needed for the jobs you mentioned because there is no way that a person who could only work making burgers could be a doctor and a person interested in biology and helping cure people would not take a job making burgers, because that would not provide intellectual stimulation for him.

    A guy like Donald Trump is a capitalist rapist who is interested in owning places that cheat people at gambling, and using land to make golf courses, he would have no place there and perhaps would be good at the burger joint. It could be the case that he was made corrupt by money and would have made a great doctor.

    Few people do and they're taught in the US that it's all about total sharing of everything and a impossible utopia. In reality, it's about getting away from endless production and not serving this tiny minority of rich people. It's completely doable.
    Thanks for the answers

    Although that system doesn't really appeal to me.

    I just don't see why an American would want to study to be a doctor when he can makes as much flipping burgers.

    American society is in no way shape or form close to a European society. Europeans for the most part are all the same ethnicity, and thus have mostly the same values, beliefs, and ethics.

    This is not really the case in America, we have at least 100 million people that would fall into the mutant category. I just don't see these people helping to contribute to society. You would have to change to complete mindset of 100's of millions of American's. American's are all about getting the most from the least effort.

    From what little I really know about it I just can't logically seeing it work in the US, we are way to diverse. It honestly seems like a fairy tale to me.
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    I would say that the eastern traditions certainly lead themselves to egalitarian and libertarian politics
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    Originally Posted by Dummkopf View Post
    Thanks for the answers

    Although that system doesn't really appeal to me.

    I just don't see why an American would want to study to be a doctor when he can makes as much flipping burgers.

    American society is in no way shape or form close to a European society. Europeans for the most part are all the same ethnicity, and thus have mostly the same values, beliefs, and ethics.

    This is not really the case in America, we have at least 100 million people that would fall into the mutant category. I just don't see these people helping to contribute to society. You would have to change to complete mindset of 100's of millions of American's. American's are all about getting the most from the least effort.

    From what little I really know about it I just can't logically seeing it work in the US, we are way to diverse. It honestly seems like a fairy tale to me.
    How a rational distrubution of goods is a fairie tale, I'm not sure. It's our current system of "growth" and "free market" is the silly story which has never worked in the history of the world, and never will. That's what people don't get, in the HISTORY OF THE EARTH, the free market has not worked. That's why so much socialism had to be introduced, because PLANNING works, because it's a---plan.

    Ethnicity has nothing to do with how well a car workers or when you need a new blender.

    Incentive:

    You can see human incentive in action if you think about social evolution. At one time there were no doctors, and then people caught on about how to be a doctor, so doctors invented themselves. I work in healthcare and people were coming to me as a kid with the same type of stuff they do they do now that I'm an adult. Some types of people evolve into their jobs and would do them no matter what. People who have a creative drive can't be stopped if facilitated, which is what a quality oriented non-money driven society would do.
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    Originally Posted by TheAdlerian View Post
    How a rational distrubution of goods is a fairie tale, I'm not sure. It's our current system of "growth" and "free market" is the silly story which has never worked in the history of the world, and never will. That's what people don't get, in the HISTORY OF THE EARTH, the free market has not worked. That's why so much socialism had to be introduced, because PLANNING works, because it's a---plan.

    Ethnicity has nothing to do with how well a car workers or when you need a new blender.

    Incentive:

    You can see human incentive in action if you think about social evolution. At one time there were no doctors, and then people caught on about how to be a doctor, so doctors invented themselves. I work in healthcare and people were coming to me as a kid with the same type of stuff they do they do now that I'm an adult. Some types of people evolve into their jobs and would do them no matter what. People who have a creative drive can't be stopped if facilitated, which is what a quality oriented non-money driven society would do.
    Adlerian, though I disagree with many parts of your post, you lay your position out very well. It is well thought out, articulate, respectful, and internally consistent. I strongly disagree on many issues, but you have my respect.

    Most scientist would be scientist for free and do it in their spare time even if they never received a dime for their work. Same holds true for most artist. The problem becomes, mass producing or finding practical applications that the scientist discovers. This is where the capitalist comes in. He could care less about benefiting society, he could care less about the actual product, but he/she shes an opportunity to make a profit by taking a invention or discovery, or song, artwork, etc., mass produce and distribute it. The scientist or artist could honestly care less about people having their product in every home in America, they are doing it for themselves, for pure joy. The capitalist actually brings the benefit to the market and distributes it, solely out of selfish profit. This is the world unfortunately as it is, and it is not the most efficient system possible, but I honestly think that based upon our current material and scientific situation, is the best possible system for human advancement. There may be a difference in the reward structure in the brain's between an artist, scientist, intellectual, from that of the profit driven, cold, calculating businessman, and though they can not understand the motives behind the others actions, by working together, society as a whole benefits. We need the selfless creative types (arts and sciences) and we need the calculating, reward driven business types to work out the logistics of getting these products to as many people as possible. It is a wasteful system, it promotes unethical behavior, it rewards benefits on a grossly unjust manner that does not reflect the true contribution of work, but the system is the best we have in a flawed world.

    Capitalism is not all good and Socialism is not all bad. There are benefits to both systems, but I think that for the most part, capitalism in terms of economic systems is much better at raising living standards than a socialist system. I do however think that certain areas of the economy should be socialized as the profit motive is fundamentally add odds with the mission of the work being performed. Firefighters should not be from a private company, because the company would go out and start fires in order to get more business. Capitalism also needs watchdogs to keep the unethical and harmful behavior to a minimum in order to promote free competition and encourage constant innovation. That is what many of the "free market" die hards do not seem to grasp, is that business does not have anyone's but their own interest at heart, and if given the chance, would destroy an entire country in order that they alone could come out the economic victor. The naive belief that the markets can regulate themselves, is just as foolish the thinking of the communist, who believes that we can all be equal and people would all work towards a better future, regradless of their individual reward. Both beliefs are ridiculous fairy tales that no reasonable, rational person would take seriously.

    It is hard to create much of a following when you can see the good and bad in everything, but overall believe in no one system. Being independent sucks, you can never be part of the group.
    Last edited by antithesis3; 01-13-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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    So capitalism is only good for logistics? You believe there would be great minds making great products not for profit but they can't put those products on shevles?!

    da fuk?
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    Originally Posted by againstall0dds View Post
    So capitalism is only good for logistics? You believe there would be great minds making great products not for profit but they can't put those products on shevles?!

    da fuk?
    Yes, the great ideas will be created regardless of profit motive as the thinkers behind these ideas are rarely, if ever, are primarily motivated by financial gain. The dissemination of these ideas, and the discovery of practical applications of these ideas, are where the capitalist comes into play. A capitalistic free market is the best enviroment for these ideas to be created and then exploited and distributed, therefore benefiting all of society. It is a very symbiotic relationship and is the best means of organization at this time.
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    Originally Posted by againstall0dds View Post
    So capitalism is only good for logistics? You believe there would be great minds making great products not for profit but they can't put those products on shevles?!

    da fuk?
    srsly, y r all conservative leaderz have questionable intelligence?
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    Actually, religion has been outlawed in every communist state thus far, so they really aren't the same.
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    Also, any pretentious young bullsh!tter that desires to either emigrate to a communist country or, even more ridiculous, make the USA a communist country should read this novel. It will explain how the Soviet Union, under all it's leaders, and other communist societies are as far from a "worker's paradise" as one can get.


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    Originally Posted by Captain Harris View Post
    Actually, religion has been outlawed in every communist state thus far, so they really aren't the same.
    Competition.

    People can't be worshipping a god if they are meant to worship the state. Religious and communistic beliefs are quite similar.
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