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  1. #1
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Has anybody ever been on a 500 cal/day deficit and not lost weight...

    ...Because they were "carb sensitive" and "insulin resistant" and their diet consisted of too many carbs?

    I'm wonder if there is any truth to this belief. So far I've been on a 500 cal/day deficit and the majority of my diet is carbs, and yet I feel fine

    But there are quite a few people out there that say something to the effect of that restricting carbs can increase the rate of fat loss. How, thermodynamically speaking, is this possible? Are they saying that eating carbs would slow down your metabolism and lower your maintenance level, or something like that?
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    It's all crap.

    Your body needs Carbohydrates. Eat up.

    It's 9pm down under and I'm digging in to some of Mum's home made Lasagna and I'm on a cut. It's never effected my fat loss as long as I'm in a deficit and eating enough protein to maintain muscle.
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    You can't be in a calorie deficit and not lose weight, insulin resistance does not change the laws of thermodynamics, it merely changes which substrates are used for energy. If you are not losing weight you are not eating consistently below maintenance.

    Generally when people cut out carbs they increase protein, the reason why cutting carbs and replacing with protein offers advantages for weight loss is due to the fact that protein does not equal 4 net calories as most people believe. 25 grams of protein (100 calories) will yield only 57 calories to the body, however 25 grams of carbohydrate (100 calories) will yield 93-98 calories to the body. As you can see by substituting 25 grams of carbohydrate for 25 grams of protein you are also reducing overall calorie intake by around 40 calories.

    High protein low carb diets work better because essentially protein equals 2 calories per gram, not 4, it's a matter of simple overestimation of calorie intake that creates the magical high protein low carb effect.
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 02:24 AM.
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    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Kelei: from what I understand, you are saying that in a very low carb diet, the process of gluconeogenesis (protein->CHO conversion, correct me if i have the term wrong) actually requires energy to happen, right? But I still don't see how that would make a difference until your carbohydrate intake gets exceptionally low, far lower than most dieters who "try to restrict carbs."

    This is what I understand, but I am still learning and the above could be wrong
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    You can't be in a calorie deficit and not lose weight, insulin resistance does not change the laws of thermodynamics, it merely changes which substrates are used for energy. If you are not losing weight you are not eating consistently below maintenance.

    Generally when people cut out carbs they increase protein, the reason why cutting carbs and replacing with protein offers advantages for weight loss is due to the fact that protein does not equal 4 net calories as most people believe. 25 grams of protein (100 calories) will yield only 57 calories to the body, however 25 grams of carbohydrate (100 calories) will yield 93-98 calories to the body. As you can see by substituting 25 grams of carbohydrate for 25 grams of protein you are also reducing overall calorie intake by around 40 calories.

    High protein low carb diets work better because essentially protein equals 2 calories per gram, not 4, it's a matter of simple overestimation of calorie intake that creates the magical high protein low carb effect.
    This is new to me.

    Source?
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    Kelei: from what I understand, you are saying that in a very low carb diet, the process of gluconeogenesis (protein->CHO conversion, correct me if i have the term wrong) actually requires energy to happen, right? But I still don't see how that would make a difference until your carbohydrate intake gets exceptionally low, far lower than most dieters who "try to restrict carbs."

    This is what I understand, but I am still learning and the above could be wrong
    Compare 2 diets, ignore fat for the time being,

    - 100 grams protein, 400 grams carbs
    - 400 grams protein, 100 grams carbs

    According to common belief both of these diets would yield 2000 calories, however let's look more closely, considering the fact that protein has an energy conversion efficiency of around 57% and carbohydrate has an energy conversion efficiency of around 97% we will for simplicity assume that 1 gram of protein equals 2 calories and 1 gram of carbohydrate equals 4 calories, now let's compare the 2 diets,

    - 100 grams P, 400 grams C = 200 calories from P, 1600 calories from C = 1800 calories total.
    - 400 grams P, 100 grams C = 800 calories from P, 400 calories from C = 1200 calories total.

    As you can see there is a 33% net calorie difference between the 2 diets, the high protein low carb diet is obviously without a shadow of a doubt going to result in greater fat loss.

    The reason why high protein low carb diets result in faster fat loss is simply due to a lower overall net calorie balance, there is no magic behind it.

    Does that help make more sense or do I need to explain it another way?
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 10:09 PM.
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    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying, but I am asking if you are saying that protein has a 57% energy conversion efficiency rate because the process of gluconeogenesis requires an energy expenditure itself to make happen
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    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    I guess it is kind of a loaded question. If you are actually on a 500 cal a day deficit, you will lose weight.

    I guess if you are on a severely carb-restricted diet, your body will be working much harder the whole time. Your liver will be working into overtime to be turning protein into glucose and fatty acids into ketones, thus causing you to expend more energy at rest, thus causing your actual RMR to be higher than if you were not on such a diet... Maintenance calorie calculators won't take this into account, so a 2000 cal diet might be 500 cals under maintenance on a regular low-cal diet, and 700-800 cals on a keto diet

    That's my hypothesis, can the med students here confirm it makes even a shred of sense?
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    I understand what you are saying, but I am asking if you are saying that protein has a 57% energy conversion efficiency rate because the process of gluconeogenesis requires an energy expenditure itself to make happen
    Not primarly no, gluconeogenesis requires more energy yes, but the primary reason is the fact that not all amino acids can be used for gluconeogenesis and even the ones that can do not convert to glucose with 100% efficiency. Although you may have 1 gram of protein, perhaps only 70% of this gram is actually able to contribute to gluconeogenesis, the body will take this 70% and dispose of the remaining 30% because it can not be converted to energy, the 13% or so unaccounted for is the cost of gluconeogeneis itself. Don't take the numbers too literally, they are only very crude and to give you a basic idea of the picture.

    To put it simply, there simply isn't the same amount of useable energy in 1 gram of protein compared to 1 gram of carbohydrate.
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 03:01 AM.
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    Originally Posted by BadWog View Post
    This is new to me.

    Source?
    http://www.jbc.org/content/23/1/77.full.pdf

    There's probably 600 more you can find on google, it's all common knowledge really, it's just that most people forget and simply assume that 1 gram of protein will yield 4 calories (in other words 100 grams of protein will convert to 100 grams of glucose), we know this is not the case.

    Glucose Yielded in Metabolism of Proteins of Higher Animals.
    Species. Man.
    Glucose per 100 gm of protein = 58 gm.

    In other words a 58% energy efficiency relative to glucose.
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 03:00 AM.
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    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    http://www.jbc.org/content/23/1/77.full.pdf

    There's probably 600 more you can find on google, it's all common knowledge really, it's just that most people forget and simply assume that 1 gram of protein will yield 4 calories (in other words 100 grams of protein will convert to 100 grams of glucose), we know this is not the case.

    Glucose Yielded in Metabolism of Proteins of Higher Animals.
    Species. Man.
    Glucose per 100 gm of protein = 58 gm.

    In other words a 58% energy efficiency relative to glucose.
    OK, so how exactly are we supposed to figure out our actual caloric intake for the day then? 2cal/g for protein, 4cal/g for carbs, what about fat?

    At 500 cal under my maintenance level I've been losing about 1 lb/week, I usually eat 180g of protein a day. That means that at a rate of 4cals/g for protein my total protein contribution is 720 cals/day. But if it's really more around 2g like you think it is, then it is actually 360 cals/day from protein.

    So does that mean that I've been on an 860 cal caloric deficit this whole time? Does that just mean my maintenance level is less than I think it is?
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    OK, so how exactly are we supposed to figure out our actual caloric intake for the day then? 2cal/g for protein, 4cal/g for carbs, what about fat?

    At 500 cal under my maintenance level I've been losing about 1 lb/week, I usually eat 180g of protein a day, does that just mean my maintenance level is less than I think it is?
    You can never get exact because of differences in food sources etc but the general rule I use is,

    1 gram of protein = 2.2 calories per gram (just round down to 2 for simplicity if you prefer)
    1 gram of carbohydrate = 4 calories per gram (at least very close to it, in reality it's not quite 4 calories but we simply round up)
    1 gram of fat = 9 calories per gram (in reality fat = 9.3 calories but we also round this down for simplicity)

    If you've been calculating 720 calories from protein (4 calories per gram) it means you're overestimating by around 324 calories (because in reality 180 grams of protein will yield around 396 calories).
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 03:11 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    http://www.jbc.org/content/23/1/77.full.pdf

    There's probably 600 more you can find on google, it's all common knowledge really, it's just that most people forget and simply assume that 1 gram of protein will yield 4 calories (in other words 100 grams of protein will convert to 100 grams of glucose), we know this is not the case.

    Glucose Yielded in Metabolism of Proteins of Higher Animals.
    Species. Man.
    Glucose per 100 gm of protein = 58 gm.

    In other words a 58% energy efficiency relative to glucose.
    A few questions on that article:
    1) That 58% ratio is in reference to how much protein is converted to an equivalent amount of glucose during gluconeogenesis. If one is eating enough carbohydrates to stave off gluconeogenesis, then wouldn't that change?
    2) Protein is used in other metabolic ways than just being converted to glucose, correct? Is it not also used in muscle maintenance and repair?

    So yes, if you were on a completely ketogenic diet, I could see your net cals from protein being 2.2 per gram, and that would assume that zero aminos were going directly to your muscles without first being converted to glucose
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    Wow, this is really interesting stuff. I might start reversing the amount of carbs and protein I eat on my cut in a week or two (I currently eat more carbs than protein) and see how much of a difference it makes on the scales if I eat the same amount of calories under the assumption that 1 gram of protein = 4 calories.

    Thanks Kelei.
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    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BadWog View Post
    Wow, this is really interesting stuff. I might start reversing the amount of carbs and protein I eat on my cut in a week or two (I currently eat more carbs than protein) and see how much of a difference it makes on the scales if I eat the same amount of calories under the assumption that 1 gram of protein = 4 calories.

    Thanks Kelei.
    HOLD ON THERE GUY

    let's see how he answers my above question first before making any hasty decisions here
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    I dont lose any weight with 500 lower than maintainces if I have high carbs.
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    A few questions on that article:
    1) That 58% ratio is in reference to how much protein is converted to an equivalent amount of glucose during gluconeogenesis. If one is eating enough carbohydrates to stave off gluconeogenesis, then wouldn't that change?
    2) Protein is used in other metabolic ways than just being converted to glucose, correct? Is it not also used in muscle maintenance and repair?

    So yes, if you were on a completely ketogenic diet, I could see your net cals from protein being 2.2 per gram, and that would assume that zero aminos were going directly to your muscles without first being converted to glucose
    Protein that is not converted to energy is irrelevant to the topic at hand is it not? We are merely discussing the conversion efficiency of unused protein, protein that goes towards non energy use is a different topic in itself.

    Any protein that goes towards general functioning and repair of the body does not count towards calorie intake quite obviously.

    However the fact remains, regardless of circumstance, for every gram of protein converted to glucose you will gain 2.2 net calories.

    For example if your body requires 100 grams of protein per day and you eat 150 grams, it means that you are gaining a net 110 calories from protein (50 x 2.2).
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    I forgot to mention, regardless of how much carbohydrate you eat, excess protein will still be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, if this glucose is not immediately used or stored as glycogen it will then be converted to fat.

    Protein does not directly convert to fat, first it converts to glucose, only if this glucose is not needed or stored as glycogen will it convert to fat either by triglyceride formation in the liver or direct uptake of the glucose by adipose tissue.
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    Protein that is not converted to energy is irrelevant to the topic at hand is it not? We are merely discussing the conversion efficiency of unused protein, protein that goes towards non energy use is a different topic in itself.

    Any protein that goes towards general functioning and repair of the body does not count towards calorie intake quite obviously.

    However the fact remains, regardless of circumstance, for every gram of protein converted to glucose you will gain 2.2 net calories.

    For example if your body requires 100 grams of protein per day and you eat 150 grams, it means that you are gaining a net 110 calories from protein (50 x 2.2).
    When your body is in a catabolic state, it will steal aminos from your muscles and convert them into glucose, correct? So would protein that is not converted to energy still be relevant anyway, since it accounts for the existing protein in your muscles that is being broken down
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    When your body is in a catabolic state, it will steal aminos from your muscles and convert them into glucose, correct? So would protein that is not converted to energy still be relevant anyway, since it accounts for the existing protein in your muscles that is being broken down
    You are correct, whether the protein comes from food or from your lean tissue makes zero difference. It's always safer to overshoot your protein/carb requirements. There are a few simple guidelines that you can almost follow with complete blind faith,

    - Eat 1 gram of protein per pound.
    - Eat enough carbohydrate to maintain exercise performance (this will take trial and error)
    - Fill in the rest of your calories with fat (primarily saturated and monounsaturated as these boost testosterone and despite 80's broscience and biased corporate funded research are not bad for you).
    - Take 3-5 grams of fish oil per day.
    - Supplement with vitamin C and zinc.
    - Avoid processed food as much as possible, try and get everything as close as possible to its natural state and with the least amount of additives etc

    There we go, some actual real world advice instead of science talk . If you follow these guidelines you're doing things 90% right and setting a good nutritional base to support muscle and strength building.

    However they are only my opinions and despite how sure I am or how certain you may think I know what I'm talking about, you still need to form your own opinions.
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 04:14 AM.
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    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    There we go, some actual real world advice instead of science talk . If you follow these guidelines you're doing things 90% right and setting a good nutritional base to support muscle and strength building.

    However they are only my opinions and despite how sure I am or how certain you may think I know what I'm talking about, you still need to form your own opinions.
    Haha, indeed. I have been doing the above while cutting and lost 11 lbs so far with great success, so the "a calorie is a calorie" theory has worked well for me so far... I only asked you because of the second thing you said, about forming my own opinions. The only way I know how to do that is to learn more about the science behind it, and I was learning a lot from hearing you talk about gluconeogenesis and triglyceride formation and so on

    I think maybe I just need a book on some basic medical science about human metabolism and then start from there, one can spend a lifetime learning this stuff
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    Haha, indeed. I have been doing the above while cutting and lost 11 lbs so far with great success, so the "a calorie is a calorie" theory has worked well for me so far... I only asked you because of the second thing you said, about forming my own opinions. The only way I know how to do that is to learn more about the science behind it, and I was learning a lot from hearing you talk about gluconeogenesis and triglyceride formation and so on

    I think maybe I just need a book on some basic medical science about human metabolism and then start from there, one can spend a lifetime learning this stuff
    Yeah no wonder a lot of people get confused when it comes to nutrition, I take it for granted now but I do remember a time when I knew absolutely nothing, everyone has to start somewhere. It's ironic but at first the more you look into it, the more confusing it becomes, however there's a balancing point that eventually you cross and everything starts to become very simple and everything fits and makes perfect sense.
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    - Eat 1 gram of protein per pound.
    - Eat enough carbohydrate to maintain exercise performance (this will take trial and error)
    - Fill in the rest of your calories with fat (primarily saturated and monounsaturated as these boost testosterone and despite 80's broscience and biased corporate funded research are not bad for you).
    - Take 3-5 grams of fish oil per day.
    - Supplement with vitamin C and zinc.
    .
    hey, would recommend supplementing with calcium?
    higher protein diets do apparently interfere with calcium absorption, so taking extra calcium in between meals (or before bed) can be beneficial?
    .

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    Originally Posted by morderstwo View Post
    hey, would recommend supplementing with calcium?
    higher protein diets do apparently interfere with calcium absorption, so taking extra calcium in between meals (or before bed) can be beneficial?
    No you do not need to supplement with calcium, what you do need to do is stop drinking soft drinks (these are horrendous to your bone health) and avoid processed foods, especially those heavy in food additives. Also start eating foods that are closer to their natural state.

    99% of mankind's health problems are caused by the following, several of which happen to be related,

    - Eating unnatural food (additives, preservatives etc)
    - Eating processed foods (heat treatment, hydrogenation etc)
    - Vitamin and mineral deficiencies due to lack of natural high quality food sources
    - Eating too much food relative to activity level
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 04:58 AM.
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    True, would u believe there was a message on the back of an old calcium supp container i had that stated to avoid high protein diets for calcium absorption. This may be the case if ppl are eating highly processed food, the combined effect of additives with high protein may give this problem. But of course they wont tell u this.
    .

    "thats right, its just business. pure & simple.
    not nose biting, alien hiding, secret parking-lot meeting conspiracies.
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    & they always pull the conspiracy card out to make anyone who questions it sound like some paranoid freak."


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  26. #26
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    Originally Posted by morderstwo View Post
    True, would u believe there was a message on the back of an old calcium supp container i had that stated to avoid high protein diets for calcium absorption. This may be the case if ppl are eating highly processed food, the combined effect of additives with high protein may give this problem. But of course they wont tell u this.
    I'll let you in on a secret, protein intake has no effect on calcium absorption or metabolism. Also the RDA for calcium is gross overkill, 1000 mg my ass.

    Vitamin D is a great value for money supplement known to increase immune function, enhance calcium/bone metabolism and also increase testosterone (in the order or 20-25% in the case of deficient individuals so it's not something to be laughed at) along with many other benefits. I actually forgot to add it to my list above. Have you ever wondered why sex drive is higher in summer? It's due to stronger sunlight and also due to the fact that people wear less clothing and spend more time outdoors, hence more Vitamin D and increased testosterone levels.
    Last edited by Kelei; 12-12-2009 at 05:39 AM.
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    This thread makes me want to cry.

    Seriously?

    What is going on with the nit-picking? I say that because I keep hitting backspace after everything I just read. I want to cite examples from all the textbooks that I studied in order to get my B.S. in NeuroBio. But I won't because it doesn't mean jack here.

    There are good and bad points here, but some of this stuff makes me wonder how cut/bulk any of you are to be nitpicking this badly.

    Someone eating their "mum's lasagna" can't really be giving advice when they need to ask this forum for a source. Frankly Insight and Kelei are giving good arguements, but both need to be considered before jumping to some sort of random conclusion.

    And at this point, I'm not sure I care to respond. Too many people talking........


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    Originally Posted by BookMonkey View Post
    This thread makes me want to cry.

    Seriously?

    What is going on with the nit-picking? I say that because I keep hitting backspace after everything I just read. I want to cite examples from all the textbooks that I studied in order to get my B.S. in NeuroBio. But I won't because it doesn't mean jack here.

    There are good and bad points here, but some of this stuff makes me wonder how cut/bulk any of you are to be nitpicking this badly.

    Someone eating their "mum's lasagna" can't really be giving advice when they need to ask this forum for a source. Frankly Insight and Kelei are giving good arguements, but both need to be considered before jumping to some sort of random conclusion.

    And at this point, I'm not sure I care to respond. Too many people talking........


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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    ...Because they were "carb sensitive" and "insulin resistant" and their diet consisted of too many carbs?

    I'm wonder if there is any truth to this belief. So far I've been on a 500 cal/day deficit and the majority of my diet is carbs, and yet I feel fine

    But there are quite a few people out there that say something to the effect of that restricting carbs can increase the rate of fat loss. How, thermodynamically speaking, is this possible? Are they saying that eating carbs would slow down your metabolism and lower your maintenance level, or something like that?
    lol yeah people deprive themselves of all the foods they like when the most important aspect is to just control yourself. It doesn't matter what you eat. Hell I think I saw a thread where a dude ate nothing but mcdonalds after seeing supersize me and he LOST weight. It's all a matter of control

    And I personally won't ever say I can't have this or that "cuz teh carbz will ghet meh!" I love food too much
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  30. #30
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    Originally Posted by BadWog View Post
    Your body needs Carbohydrates. .
    It does? Im pretty sure the body can survive without carbohydrates.

    Originally Posted by BadWog View Post
    Wow, this is really interesting stuff. I might start reversing the amount of carbs and protein I eat on my cut in a week or two (I currently eat more carbs than protein) and see how much of a difference it makes on the scales if I eat the same amount of calories under the assumption that 1 gram of protein = 4 calories.

    Thanks Kelei.
    Don't jump the gun like that man. You also have to take into account how you can optimally train during your cut since that is very important also. I need higher carbs to do that

    Originally Posted by ViktorM View Post
    I dont lose any weight with 500 lower than maintainces if I have high carbs.
    Then that is not a true 500cal deflict now is it?

    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    You are correct, whether the protein comes from food or from your lean tissue makes zero difference. It's always safer to overshoot your protein/carb requirements. There are a few simple guidelines that you can almost follow with complete blind faith,

    - Eat 1 gram of protein per pound.
    - Eat enough carbohydrate to maintain exercise performance (this will take trial and error)
    - Fill in the rest of your calories with fat (primarily saturated and monounsaturated as these boost testosterone and despite 80's broscience and biased corporate funded research are not bad for you).
    - Take 3-5 grams of fish oil per day.
    - Supplement with vitamin C and zinc.
    - Avoid processed food as much as possible, try and get everything as close as possible to its natural state and with the least amount of additives etc

    There we go, some actual real world advice instead of science talk . If you follow these guidelines you're doing things 90% right and setting a good nutritional base to support muscle and strength building.

    However they are only my opinions and despite how sure I am or how certain you may think I know what I'm talking about, you still need to form your own opinions.
    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    No you do not need to supplement with calcium, what you do need to do is stop drinking soft drinks (these are horrendous to your bone health) and avoid processed foods, especially those heavy in food additives. Also start eating foods that are closer to their natural state.

    99% of mankind's health problems are caused by the following, several of which happen to be related,

    - Eating unnatural food (additives, preservatives etc)
    - Eating processed foods (heat treatment, hydrogenation etc)
    - Vitamin and mineral deficiencies due to lack of natural high quality food sources
    - Eating too much food relative to activity level
    These posts make sense to me just what do you define as unatural and what negative effects may they have on your health. One example..ice cream..if i have a 250cal ice cream cone 3x a week, what would negatives be? Im just curious as to what you think..or if you have any fact backing it.
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