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    strategies for low back pain (it may not be about anything in the back)

    THis post started life as a reply to someone having "horrible back pain"
    i've seen three of these in one day, so thought perhaps a general thread may help.

    The point of this post is to offer an alternative perspective about back pain that says it mayn't be about the back; it may be about pain processes in the brain. and if we work with a model of pain, and of movement, even chronic stuff can unwind.

    This post is motivated by the fact that
    A lot of folks ask about low back pain issues, and what can be done. Many folks recommend chiros, PT's massage, exercise. All these things can bring benefit. In my experience though, if that back pain has been going on for months/years we're talking chronic, and manually therapy has a much harder time addressing this.

    The following offers some other ideas for dealing with low back pain - both at an early and definitely at an ongoing stage.

    The focus is really on models of pain as opposed to particular back issues.

    context
    First of all some context:
    me, like most folks with low back stuff - compressed l4/l5, long history of chronic back stuff.
    chiro, pt, accupunture. shots and surgery offered - na thanks.

    like a few who'v been dealing with low back pain for awhile, a lot of money for treatments that would hold for only a short time getting off the table.

    Initially Yoga therapy worked a bit better than anything else; kettlebell swinging really helped but still chronic flare ups. Both these were based on the theory that the muscles in the back are potentially weak or out of balance. As said, helped a lot but the chronic flare ups were not addressed; ROM still limited by pain etc.

    As a last ditch effort a colleague hooked me up with a mobility/movement specialist. This person also looked at vision and balance stuff, not just muscle work. The experience was huge and transformative.

    Like many people who experience the benefits of an approach, i started to learn more, and get certified in the approach: how to understand movement and our neurology. since then i and colleagues have worked with TONS of athletes with the same low back issues you've described here.

    getting to the nervous systemThe approach of nervous system first always seems to have immediate benefit. I'll explain what this means further down, but for now, the main approach is to check a persons responses to movement, and also visual and vestibular checks. The approach is also largely active on the part of the participant, not manual/passive.

    A couple of reasons:
    o it works with the nervous system - the body's governing system (what runs joints and muscles)
    more on that here: http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/10/mov...l-path-to.html

    o it is active rather than passive: you are moving yourself rather than being manipulated, which fires of thousands more signals in the body to learn new patterns than manipulations so benefits stick.
    related: http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/09/b2d...hat-is-it.html

    o it works in large part on threat reduction: the latest work on pain says pain is an action signal. it means change something. finding the right thing to change is part of the assessment process. i've yet to work with anyone who hasn't had immediate and significant pain reduction (or elimination) and that only improves as they continue to do the work FOR THEMSELVES.
    related: http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/11/why...ough-pain.html

    low back: location of pain receptors for ANY pain event?
    Here's something else about low back stuff. Lots of folks have compressed disks or degenerated discs, or scoliosis and have NO pain - so is the site of pain the source of the pain? maybe not.

    site of pain mayn't be source of painHere's why: here's what we know about the back: it has the highest ratio, in the low back, of nociceptors (the nerves that detect noxious stiumlus) than any other area of the bod, and the lowest number of mechano receptors. In other words, the back is a huge pain cry waiting to happen. Our other joints have more mechanoreceptors than nociceptors around them, so good movement can often come through louder than pain. In the lower back, the least pain is gonna be more amped up.

    The back is also the big X of the body - things cross from the right side on the lower body up to the left side of the upper body. So the low back again is a HUGE junction for LOTS of information.

    rewiring the back over time to be THE pain receiver Finally, and this is amazing, we learn pain; our brains can re-wire where pain happens. big technical term: we can sometimes with chronic pain get what's called neural chunking or central wind up. In other words, ANY pain/stress signals from anywhere start to manifest in the low back - that's become our response zone. That doesn't mean it's not happening; just that the brain/nervous system is now routing pain signaling through that super sensitive place. and it has been super sensitized.

    It's because of all this neuro-chemical soup (to use david butler's analogy) happening that sometimes looking for issues in a back joint is not going to "unwind" the pain issue.

    So to all you folks who have tried everything and are frustrated and in low back hell?

    alternative ACTIVE approaches may i recommend considering an active/neurologically sensitive approach?

    Best approach: see a movement specialist In this list, look for someone with either S or T certifications (or both). Likewise, if someone's not close with the qualifications, i do video consults, too.

    secondary approach: get a joint mobility program into your life. Moving each joint through a range of motion is an amazingly good way to talk to the nervous system.
    here's more on why
    http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/09/b2d...hat-is-it.html

    and if you scroll down to "dig in" there's some recommended places of guided packages for that, eg the "level 1" kit.

    The best part is, really, when you have an understanding of how pain works, and how the nervous system works in terms of proprioception, vision and the vestibular sysetms, there's a path to start unwinding that. AND YOU DO IT FOR YOURSELF so it sticks.

    The big take away is that especially chronic low back pain is more than 9 times out of 10 not about the joints - pain is way more interesting and intriguing it seems than that, but it does make sense that the low back is where so much chronic pain gets filtered, eh?

    again, this is not meant to say don't do chiro or related manual therapies; but this is another approach, and especially if you've been frustrated with more usual approaches, you may find coming from another model has very good consequences.

    hope that helps.

    mc
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    Registered User HALON's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    THis post started life as a reply to someone having "horrible back pain"
    i've seen three of these in one day, so thought perhaps a general thread may help.

    The point of this post is to offer an alternative perspective about back pain that says it mayn't be about the back; it may be about pain processes in the brain. and if we work with a model of pain, and of movement, even chronic stuff can unwind.

    This post is motivated by the fact that
    A lot of folks ask about low back pain issues, and what can be done. Many folks recommend chiros, PT's massage, exercise. All these things can bring benefit. In my experience though, if that back pain has been going on for months/years we're talking chronic, and manually therapy has a much harder time addressing this.

    The following offers some other ideas for dealing with low back pain - both at an early and definitely at an ongoing stage.

    The focus is really on models of pain as opposed to particular back issues.

    context
    First of all some context:
    me, like most folks with low back stuff - compressed l4/l5, long history of chronic back stuff.
    chiro, pt, accupunture. shots and surgery offered - na thanks.

    like a few who'v been dealing with low back pain for awhile, a lot of money for treatments that would hold for only a short time getting off the table.

    Initially Yoga therapy worked a bit better than anything else; kettlebell swinging really helped but still chronic flare ups. Both these were based on the theory that the muscles in the back are potentially weak or out of balance. As said, helped a lot but the chronic flare ups were not addressed; ROM still limited by pain etc.

    As a last ditch effort a colleague hooked me up with a mobility/movement specialist. This person also looked at vision and balance stuff, not just muscle work. The experience was huge and transformative.

    Like many people who experience the benefits of an approach, i started to learn more, and get certified in the approach: how to understand movement and our neurology. since then i and colleagues have worked with TONS of athletes with the same low back issues you've described here.

    getting to the nervous systemThe approach of nervous system first always seems to have immediate benefit. I'll explain what this means further down, but for now, the main approach is to check a persons responses to movement, and also visual and vestibular checks. The approach is also largely active on the part of the participant, not manual/passive.

    A couple of reasons:
    o it works with the nervous system - the body's governing system (what runs joints and muscles)
    more on that here: http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/10/mov...l-path-to.html

    o it is active rather than passive: you are moving yourself rather than being manipulated, which fires of thousands more signals in the body to learn new patterns than manipulations so benefits stick.
    related: http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/09/b2d...hat-is-it.html

    o it works in large part on threat reduction: the latest work on pain says pain is an action signal. it means change something. finding the right thing to change is part of the assessment process. i've yet to work with anyone who hasn't had immediate and significant pain reduction (or elimination) and that only improves as they continue to do the work FOR THEMSELVES.
    related: http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/11/why...ough-pain.html

    low back: location of pain receptors for ANY pain event?
    Here's something else about low back stuff. Lots of folks have compressed disks or degenerated discs, or scoliosis and have NO pain - so is the site of pain the source of the pain? maybe not.

    site of pain mayn't be source of painHere's why: here's what we know about the back: it has the highest ratio, in the low back, of nociceptors (the nerves that detect noxious stiumlus) than any other area of the bod, and the lowest number of mechano receptors. In other words, the back is a huge pain cry waiting to happen. Our other joints have more mechanoreceptors than nociceptors around them, so good movement can often come through louder than pain. In the lower back, the least pain is gonna be more amped up.

    The back is also the big X of the body - things cross from the right side on the lower body up to the left side of the upper body. So the low back again is a HUGE junction for LOTS of information.

    rewiring the back over time to be THE pain receiver Finally, and this is amazing, we learn pain; our brains can re-wire where pain happens. big technical term: we can sometimes with chronic pain get what's called neural chunking or central wind up. In other words, ANY pain/stress signals from anywhere start to manifest in the low back - that's become our response zone. That doesn't mean it's not happening; just that the brain/nervous system is now routing pain signaling through that super sensitive place. and it has been super sensitized.

    It's because of all this neuro-chemical soup (to use david butler's analogy) happening that sometimes looking for issues in a back joint is not going to "unwind" the pain issue.

    So to all you folks who have tried everything and are frustrated and in low back hell?

    alternative ACTIVE approaches may i recommend considering an active/neurologically sensitive approach?

    Best approach: see a movement specialist In this list, look for someone with either S or T certifications (or both). Likewise, if someone's not close with the qualifications, i do video consults, too.

    secondary approach: get a joint mobility program into your life. Moving each joint through a range of motion is an amazingly good way to talk to the nervous system.
    here's more on why
    http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/09/b2d...hat-is-it.html

    and if you scroll down to "dig in" there's some recommended places of guided packages for that, eg the "level 1" kit.

    The best part is, really, when you have an understanding of how pain works, and how the nervous system works in terms of proprioception, vision and the vestibular sysetms, there's a path to start unwinding that. AND YOU DO IT FOR YOURSELF so it sticks.

    The big take away is that especially chronic low back pain is more than 9 times out of 10 not about the joints - pain is way more interesting and intriguing it seems than that, but it does make sense that the low back is where so much chronic pain gets filtered, eh?

    again, this is not meant to say don't do chiro or related manual therapies; but this is another approach, and especially if you've been frustrated with more usual approaches, you may find coming from another model has very good consequences.

    hope that helps.

    mc
    GREAT POST REPS




    I once use to have chronic back pain and strain for years. I got after hyper extending my back.


    I went to physios, doctors.


    No once could help me.


    The whole issue was caused that I had really tight hamstrings and whenever I bent forward to pick something I would round my back. This would always end up straining my back. I had no use of my hamstrings when lifting something of the ground.

    Sometimes it can be a simple problem such basic body mechanics which causes back problems for some people.

    Funny the doctors or physio with all their knowledge could not see this.
    "In AUSTRALIA
    Each year there are 470 000 adverse events, 18 000 deaths, and 50 000 permanent disabilities arising from medical error and negligence each year. This is four times higher compared to the USA." (Second oppinion, GERMOV quote, page 293)

    353 fatal car crashes were recorded on Australian roads in 2008 (RTA, 2008). You are 50 TIMES more likely to die from medical negligence from a DOCTOR compared to being fatally injured in a car crash and they say driving is dangerous.
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    Great stuff.

    One thing I want to add was that when I was researching this article:
    http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2009/1...-dysfunctions/

    I found numerous sources in the literature about

    Gluteal weakness and improper activation patterns leading towards lower back pain:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18282648
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9552107
    http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/blog/?p=66
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17172991
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12586558
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10638873

    Tight hammies, IT band, and TFL are another one. Same with overactive strong hip flexors as psoas major & minor have origins on the lumbar spine.
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  4. #4
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    Thank you for the feedback.

    If i may say Halon, about tight hamstrings - have you got that sorted?

    See, for this perspective too, i've seen this: that tight hamstrings becomes the AH HA - and then some folks spend a lot of time focusing on constantly stretching because the tightness keeps returning.

    which mayn't be happening in your case.

    But where it does, i'm asking

    weil if the bod is causing a sensation of tightness, perhaps that's for a reason too. It's another threat response to protect the person from something for some reason.

    So in my practice and my colleagues' we'd tend to say ok, can we look at the whole movement to see what might be causing this response? it may be a weakness somewhere or it may be something that has nothing to do with the muscles per se.

    I've seen "tightness" disappear after doing some visual/vestibular checks - looking down actually caused a particular stress response. and so doing drills to help work with that is what let that tightness response release.

    If we start with the position of "this may be a threat response" - where the reason for the pain or tightness is a nervous system effort to protect us, then working through what enables that response to lessen becomes a different path to re-establish, really, healthy movement. It's an easy way to check if the response is being effective: does the movement open up again?

    So with respect to what brandix posted in the refs below which say when this muscle pulls here, that can cause pain there - yes ok. but how far does that get us?

    If we see pain/tightness as a protective mechanism, and then want to work with our body to find out what's up with that, it may be as said that we end up doing some local muscle work, or it's visual, or balance or or or.

    And ESPECIALLY with chronic stuff - yes a muscle may tighten and cause a pull - so how make it safe for the body to do something else? A pain going chronic can be really really challenging because there's so much more potentially wound up in the central nervous system - the stuff has moved from peripheral to central and the brain may be reacting to some crazy signals - ever notice that back pain can be worse at emotional times? or in differing weather conditions? etc.

    anyway, yes truly there can be all these muscular tightnesses going on. - and Halon, again, have you found a path that's sorted that for you?

    if not, it may be really worthwhile to go higher up the chain to assess why that signal may be turning on that your bod doesn't feel ok to let that mobility happen??

    Again, gentlemen, thanks for the thoughtful replies; mine here is just to offer more for the discussion.

    mc
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    The chronic back pain has gone away.

    But the tightness in my hamstrings sometimes returns if I pick something of the ground with a round back and slightly strain my back. I usually notice my hams have tightened after something like this.

    This tightness actually compounds the problem as its easier to strain my back with tight hams.


    The things that have helped me a lot are pilates and any exercise which strengthens the hams.

    But still its very hard for me to gain flexibility in the hams it takes more effort then any other muscle in the body.
    "In AUSTRALIA
    Each year there are 470 000 adverse events, 18 000 deaths, and 50 000 permanent disabilities arising from medical error and negligence each year. This is four times higher compared to the USA." (Second oppinion, GERMOV quote, page 293)

    353 fatal car crashes were recorded on Australian roads in 2008 (RTA, 2008). You are 50 TIMES more likely to die from medical negligence from a DOCTOR compared to being fatally injured in a car crash and they say driving is dangerous.
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    Awesome post, I hope this may help me with lower back issues!
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    Originally Posted by HALON View Post
    The chronic back pain has gone away.

    But the tightness in my hamstrings sometimes returns if I pick something of the ground with a round back and slightly strain my back. I usually notice my hams have tightened after something like this.

    This tightness actually compounds the problem as its easier to strain my back with tight hams.


    The things that have helped me a lot are pilates and any exercise which strengthens the hams.

    But still its very hard for me to gain flexibility in the hams it takes more effort then any other muscle in the body.

    my suggestion with an apparent lack of flexibility is often mobility specific work - a movement assessment can help look at where there might be an opportunity within movement to reduce threat (modulate threat) and improve the bod's feeling safer to move more freely.

    i've seen great results from asking the question: if pain and tightness are both action signals to reduce threat, what are ways to do that? mobility, visual and vestibular assessments provide a wide vocabulary to explore that space and have a great effect.
    thanks for sharing, too.

    mc
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    Registered User HALON's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    my suggestion with an apparent lack of flexibility is often mobility specific work - a movement assessment can help look at where there might be an opportunity within movement to reduce threat (modulate threat) and improve the bod's feeling safer to move more freely.

    i've seen great results from asking the question: if pain and tightness are both action signals to reduce threat, what are ways to do that? mobility, visual and vestibular assessments provide a wide vocabulary to explore that space and have a great effect.
    thanks for sharing, too.

    mc

    The most flexible I have been in my life is when I use to do karate a few years back. Almost all moves in karate involve a great degree of mobility.

    Maybe I should get back to that.

    But do you think power exercises might do the trick?

    Like kettle bells swings which really work the hams and posterior chain.

    thanks
    "In AUSTRALIA
    Each year there are 470 000 adverse events, 18 000 deaths, and 50 000 permanent disabilities arising from medical error and negligence each year. This is four times higher compared to the USA." (Second oppinion, GERMOV quote, page 293)

    353 fatal car crashes were recorded on Australian roads in 2008 (RTA, 2008). You are 50 TIMES more likely to die from medical negligence from a DOCTOR compared to being fatally injured in a car crash and they say driving is dangerous.
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    Originally Posted by HALON View Post
    The most flexible I have been in my life is when I use to do karate a few years back. Almost all moves in karate involve a great degree of mobility.

    Maybe I should get back to that.

    But do you think power exercises might do the trick?

    Like kettle bells swings which really work the hams and posterior chain.

    thanks
    moving, period is good. stuff that moves as many joints as possible, all good.
    KB's are great for strengthening the core/low, back, hams, lats delts - a lot of stuff.
    so that's all good. Strength is a tremendous part of stability/mobility.
    That it's dynamic, and working on power too, is also a plus for joint work, load.

    you may also want to consider a specific mobility program, too, like the r-phase stuff.

    why?

    it gives you a specific suite of tools to assess in effect each joint so that you have a particular vocab to deal with any issues that come up in your movement. For instance, if you're going for a dead lift and it doesn't feel great, with z, you can say hmm i want to check my hips, ankles, thoracics, and do that quickly, in that sport-specific position, and retest the dead. voila. THAT'S a wee bit trickier to do by saying what karate move would let me do this in a deadlift posture?

    If you're interested, scroll down to "digging in" section of this post (link) for some ideas of what you might want to explore there.

    mc
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    Search my posts.

    In your daily activities. Try to schedule more walking, standing, kneeling, sitting on kneeling chairs and keeping your head back and spine neutral.

    Try to spend more time lieing in bed. Google what is the correct bed posture.

    Gently flex your buttocks at times.

    If you have a normal chair try to drop your knees below hips and keep them there. Whether you need to anchor your shins against the chair legs or have your feet at an angle on the balls of the feet.
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    MC: this is good science, and I applaud your work with it. It runs parallel to Dr. John Sarno's work; I read his book "Healing back Pain" and was out of most of my agony from JUST READING IT! He also mentioned that it doesn't make much sense to allow the back to get weak to heal it, and the very exersizes that chiros and doctors tell you NOT to do, are the very thing the back needs.
    SO...I got rid of 98% of the rest of my back pain with deadlifts, SLDL's, weighted hypers, and squats. I stretch forward with some rotation regularly and have NO fear of picking heavy things up, still-legged or otherwise - with some attention to joint heat, of course.
    The brain is SO much more powerful than we can imagine.
    I do because I can.
    I can because I do.

    ...and I don't care what you used to lift.
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    i pinched my discs 9 months ago, it took 4 months to fully recover. i dont think ill ever deadlift again, even if i do practice better form, i never want a setback like that again.
    Pump or die trying
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    Originally Posted by quadancer View Post
    MC: this is good science, and I applaud your work with it. It runs parallel to Dr. John Sarno's work; I read his book "Healing back Pain" and was out of most of my agony from JUST READING IT! He also mentioned that it doesn't make much sense to allow the back to get weak to heal it, and the very exersizes that chiros and doctors tell you NOT to do, are the very thing the back needs.
    SO...I got rid of 98% of the rest of my back pain with deadlifts, SLDL's, weighted hypers, and squats. I stretch forward with some rotation regularly and have NO fear of picking heavy things up, still-legged or otherwise - with some attention to joint heat, of course.
    The brain is SO much more powerful than we can imagine.
    thank you , and best of all, glad you're feeling better and back in the game. all the best, mc
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    I listen to my favourite tv shows and use a mirror to watch the tv while i lie flat on my back across the room.

    Also you can print out pictures of the favourite characters to help visualise it.
    -Roger Stone's on the loose; quislings on the run.
    -of Nolibs "Donald stumped him & everyone else in the race, even Lyin' Ted Cruz!"
    -Donald trump tears a hole,destroys my self esteem... And trump could win it all,my rightful place from birth,dad i've let you down,dub i've made you...hurt
    -Donald for a long time, Donald for a long time, Go tell that syphilis tongued liar
    -Now this nation that I love has fallen under attack,
    Through our DJT,
    we lit up the cucks,
    Like the fourth of July
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    Lie on the edge of your bed. Make sure the edge of your bed doesnt dig into your neck,back too hard.

    You try to put that big lump where your back joins your neck on the spine on the edge of your bed and let your head hang over the edge of the bed to give it a stretch.

    -Roger Stone's on the loose; quislings on the run.
    -of Nolibs "Donald stumped him & everyone else in the race, even Lyin' Ted Cruz!"
    -Donald trump tears a hole,destroys my self esteem... And trump could win it all,my rightful place from birth,dad i've let you down,dub i've made you...hurt
    -Donald for a long time, Donald for a long time, Go tell that syphilis tongued liar
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    Through our DJT,
    we lit up the cucks,
    Like the fourth of July
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    Thumbs up

    Excellent post MC!
    Very informative and a lot of great info!.
    "Nothing is impossible"
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    So, these practitioners accord themselves the title of "movement specialist"? A grandiose title is a good way to appear to be an authority on a subject.

    Next we have the belittling of the professions that do, in fact, manage to "cure" the vast majority of cases of lower back pain, a fact that you do not acknowledge. It is true that not all people are helped by these professions, but your dismissive attitude distorts the successes of these professions.

    There are other techniques that use similar techniques, perhaps not in the specific manner in which these techniques work. Unfortunately, there is little effective data available to find on these techniques, with the secrets held in the hands of the gurus and only available to those who pay for courses to be taught the "secrets".

    In general, the medical, chiropractic and physiotherapy professions will successfully treat the vast majority of cases of lower back pain. If they do not, then alternate forms of treatment should be sought. This form of treatment may be appropriate in those cases that do not respond well to the conventional treatments. After all, the best treatment is the one that works for YOU!
    The science is out there!
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    i'm sorry i fail to understand this comment.
    no one is saying there are secrets,
    no one is dissing anyone else's approach.

    the point made is IF manual therapy hasn't worked, it might be time to consider an alternative model.
    From my experience in pain research i'd suggest starting with active work and assessments whenever possible, but i haven't asserted that here.

    There's a pretty clear model of active vs passive being expressed. that's not a secret. that's motor learning theory and neural plasticity work in the brain.

    i'm not sure why folks focusing on movement/neurology are being treated as people with secrets and other professionals are being treated as, well, professionals? Both spend a lot of time and money on their respective training; both offer services for hire to treat people based on that education.
    and actually there's a terrible record in the industry of any profession "curing" low back pain. i don't think you could get either a chiro or a pt to say the record is good here.

    Why be afraid of new models? why run them down? we know so much more about the brain and how it works with the body and body maps now than we did when chiro and PT were getting going. WHo knows? maybe the next model will be atomic and this model will look primitive?

    as we learn more about pain and the brain why not take advantage of it?

    best
    mc
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    extended version

    by the way, here's an extended version of this post with more references
    http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/12/tho...n-when-in.html

    best
    mc
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  20. #20
    Physiotherapist Fresch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    i'm sorry i fail to understand this comment.
    no one is saying there are secrets,
    no one is dissing anyone else's approach.

    the point made is IF manual therapy hasn't worked, it might be time to consider an alternative model.
    From my experience in pain research i'd suggest starting with active work and assessments whenever possible, but i haven't asserted that here.

    There's a pretty clear model of active vs passive being expressed. that's not a secret. that's motor learning theory and neural plasticity work in the brain.

    i'm not sure why folks focusing on movement/neurology are being treated as people with secrets and other professionals are being treated as, well, professionals? Both spend a lot of time and money on their respective training; both offer services for hire to treat people based on that education.
    and actually there's a terrible record in the industry of any profession "curing" low back pain. i don't think you could get either a chiro or a pt to say the record is good here.

    Why be afraid of new models? why run them down? we know so much more about the brain and how it works with the body and body maps now than we did when chiro and PT were getting going. WHo knows? maybe the next model will be atomic and this model will look primitive?

    as we learn more about pain and the brain why not take advantage of it?

    best
    mc
    Your original posts, and this post, infer that physiotherapy and chiropractic are not successful in curing back pain. You are the one putting down other treatments and professions.

    I would contest that current manual therapy methods are successful in over 95% of cases: I would consider that to be a highly successful model.
    The science is out there!
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    Originally Posted by Fresch View Post
    Your original posts, and this post, infer that physiotherapy and chiropractic are not successful in curing back pain. You are the one putting down other treatments and professions.

    I would contest that current manual therapy methods are successful in over 95% of cases: I would consider that to be a highly successful model.
    again, i am in no way putting down other modalities, and would also be delighted to see the sources for the stats you're describing of success.

    And if manual therapy works for you, great.

    This post is really for folks who have chronic pain and who have not found success with the approaches you support.

    best
    mc
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    lookin great man!!! i guess u dont want people knowing your stats but you're already pretty dang lean! go get it!
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    Hello all

    I have read the posts with interest but dont seem to be able to find any ref to my back pain

    my back pain comes only after having laid, on my back, on a flat surface (the floor or weight bench) the pain is not made worse for lifting, just the laying is enough

    the pain isnt present when laying down, but comes when I need to get up again.

    The muscles affected seem to be the lower back/lats (but the pain is around 4 inches up from my lowers back ... where back meets butt, and reaches as far as say around 3 or 4 inches beneath the area of the bottom of my shoulder blades.

    It feels as if the muscles have tightened (think of how steak retracts when put in frying pan) and I can barely lift up (like doing a crunch) at times I have to roll off the bench or to the side if on the floor, and then helping myself up with arms etc.

    having said that, when up, after a few minutes, the pain subsides and full movement is returned

    I am a lard arse, and now weigh 224lbs (having lost 56lbs this year)

    is it possible that my back is just weak and needs strengthening, or do I need to have it checked out maybe

    Any thoughts would be good

    Thanks
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    check with your doctor, then
    get checked out by a performance/movement specialist

    best
    mc
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  25. #25
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    for the people that mentioned tight hamstrings...what SPECIFIC stretches have you done over time to relieve the problem?
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    Originally Posted by bballbrett5 View Post
    for the people that mentioned tight hamstrings...what SPECIFIC stretches have you done over time to relieve the problem?
    Rather than stretches, especially if you're stretching to lift, why not try loosening that tightness without stretching?

    try ankle tilts with tall spine and no tilt on the pelvis, and likewise, toe pulls
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...s/djm_training

    this often opens up the hip flexors without any of the neg side effects to lifting power from stretching.

    best
    mc
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    excellent article on the back. i've had lower back (pinched sciatic) on several occasions. it takes months to heal and kills any routine.
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    Good Post. I think alot of lower back issues (unless its acute pain i.e herniated disks or say a tackle directly to that area) arent necessarily problems with the back there caused by that lower area of the back having to compensate or take extra stress's from different areas of the body. This idea stems from myofascia trains that run the full length of the front and back of the body if one area of these trains isnt pulling its weight or is injured the other areas along that fascia have to deal with those extra stress's so its not always right to assume back pain is significantly problems to do only with your lower back, saying this it is hard if you cant feel it to detect these problem areas!

    I think alot of lower back issues arise from glute/hamstring tightness as the major posterior myotrain crosses the lower back are as the myofascia from the left gluteal region crosses the back to insert onto the controlateral lat fascia. To cure lower back pain i think we have to look at the bigger picture rather than just assuming its merely a problem with your lower back.
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    great read
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    Hello

    Awesome article on the back pain... This was very helpful for me.... I am greatly thankful to you... good job! Keep posting...
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