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  1. #1
    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Misc Lawyers, EMERGE..PLEASE HELP BRAHZ!

    This courseworks gotta be handed in in like 2 days but ive been really pre-occupied with stuff (and distracted by misc) please help. If you can your a lifesaver.

    Katie was desperate to make sure that Cheryl was not able to compete in the ?Miss Celebrity 2009? contest. Katie was a keen horse rider and decided to use Proquinodril, a powerful tranquilliser used for horses, to spike her drink. Katie was aware that in some circles this drug was used recreationally and made people very sick. That morning she had read in the paper that a 12 year old boy who had accidentally taken the drug had died. The article had been titled ?Death Drug Claims Latest Victim.?
    She did not read the rest of the piece which went on to say that a significant amount of the drug currently in use was in fact not actually Proquinodril but a complex chemical mix which had already resulted in 17 horses and 4 adults in America dying in the last month alone. It also advised anyone with supplies of Porquinodril to bring them to their nearest Vet immediately so it could be analysed.
    Katie thought she had better make sure not to use too much after reading the headline but when she came to get the bottle from her shed the label had worn off so she was not able to read what the correct dose for a horse was so she made a guess based on the size of the bottle. She really hoped that Cheryl would end up in hospital as she was sure she took drugs to help her stay thin and hoped that this would create a scandal and ruin her career. If she was really ill in hospital for a long time so much the better.
    At the pre contest drinks party she got the opportunity to spike Cheryl?s drink. Almost as soon as she put the drug into the glass Cheryl drank it all. Cheryl started fitting immediately and a trainee doctor appealed to the other guests for any information about what she had been drinking. Katie kept quiet. The doctor shouted that he had seen similar symptoms with Proquinodril and said that unless she was correctly diagnosed she could have a heart attack and die. Katie knew it was very serious but thought she would not get such an opportunity again to get rid of her competitor and if Cheryl died she could live with it.
    The paramedics arrived and gave Cheryl a sedative to slow her racing pulse but she had a cardiac arrest on the way to the hospital and died. The ambulance should have had a defibrillator to re- start her heart but it had been stolen earlier that evening.
    Later CCTV showed Katie swapping her glass with Cheryl?s and forensic tests linked the Proquinodril to the same batch as Katie had in her shed.
    Katie was charged with murder

    Discuss her liability for murder ONLY. Do not consider any defences.
    Last edited by IronLyfe; 11-17-2009 at 03:13 AM.
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  2. #2
    casually deliberate SpyderTT's Avatar
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    bel-air'ed?

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    LOL! sorry but did not read.
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    Gangster of Timepieces RedSoxfan1978's Avatar
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    Her liability would have to be directly linked to the other girls death.
    Its what you can PROVE not what you KNOW to be true or believe to be true.

    How can anyone without a confession ever PROVE she spiked the girls drink, which lead to her death? There is no way to conclusively prove it, given the story as you have written it.
    She has plausible denial here .Simple as that.

    If she keeps her mouth shut, lawyers up and tells the cops to fcvk off, IF they ever even got around to considering her a suspect in the first place, she will walk away free.

    That is how I see it.
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    charged with 1st degree murder? or 2nd?

    and where did all the info for the case come from? confession? psychic? LOL
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    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RedSoxfan1978 View Post
    Her liability would have to be directly linked to the other girls death.
    Its what you can PROVE not what you KNOW to be true or believe to be true.

    How can anyone without a confession ever PROVE she spiked the girls drink, which lead to her death? There is no way to conclusively prove it, given the story as you have written it.
    She has plausible denial here .Simple as that.

    If she keeps her mouth shut, lawyers up and tells the cops to fcvk off, IF they ever even got around to considering her a suspect in the first place, she will walk away free.

    That is how I see it.
    lol thats pretty good from a normal persons perspective but tbh brah its gotta involve a lot more law.
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    Registered User wiles454's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronLyfe View Post
    lol thats pretty good from a normal persons perspective but tbh brah its gotta involve a lot more law.
    where did the information for this report come from?
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  8. #8
    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wiles454 View Post
    charged with 1st degree murder? or 2nd?

    and where did all the info for the case come from? confession? psychic? LOL
    lol is that really relevant??
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  9. #9
    Registered User wiles454's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronLyfe View Post
    lol is that really relevant??
    yeah, it would be nice to know what she is being charged with and the requirements for conviction on those charges.
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    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wiles454 View Post
    yeah, it would be nice to know what she is being charged with, and the requirements for conviction on those charges.
    thats what I need to find out, what you asked is part of the question. I have to find out if shes liable for murder and if the courts would have any problems proving this.
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  11. #11
    Anger is a Gift ScottishMark's Avatar
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    You should probably try and do your own coursework.
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    Registered User wiles454's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronLyfe View Post
    thats what I need to find out, what you asked is part of the question. I have to find out if shes liable for murder and if the courts would have any problems proving this.
    that's why I asked where the information is from..if the courts have all of this information then there will be no trouble proving it. what information do the police have?

    I don't know your requirements for a murder conviction.....
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  13. #13
    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ScottishMark View Post
    You should probably try and do your own coursework.
    misc is my online teacher, u mad brah
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    poison was the proximate cause.

    Depraved heart murder: not just substantial, but unjustifiable risk. If there is no legitimate basis to engage in certain conduct, then the risk is decidedly unjustifiable.

    Murder-1: key—premeditation (not have to take long); sometimes F-M is also included.

    Often categorized as murder-1: special weapons (including poison)
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    Eli Manning Crew Ecnewyx's Avatar
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    Depends on the jurisdiction.

    Depraved heart murder is old common law, but the analysis ^^^ is still more or less accurate.

    (1) Would prosecution have problems proving it based solely on what you said? Maybe. All the video shows is that they swapped drinks. Prosecution would have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Katie actually put the poison in there with the intent of harming the other girl.

    (2) Is the ambulance's lack of a defibrillator an intervening cause that breaks the chain of causation? Again, depends on the jurisdiction. Most would say no.
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    Anger is a Gift ScottishMark's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronLyfe View Post
    misc is my online teacher, u mad brah
    Not mad. It's your degree though..
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    Registered User jclarsen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ecnewyx View Post
    Depends on the jurisdiction.

    Depraved heart murder is old common law, but the analysis ^^^ is still more or less accurate.

    (1) Would prosecution have problems proving it based solely on what you said? Maybe. All the video shows is that they swapped drinks. Prosecution would have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Katie actually put the poison in there with the intent of harming the other girl.

    (2) Is the ambulance's lack of a defibrillator an intervening cause that breaks the chain of causation? Again, depends on the jurisdiction. Most would say no.
    OP lives in the uk so i figured he'd use CL. i'm not too familiar with our pals across the pond.
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    Eli Manning Crew Ecnewyx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RedSoxfan1978 View Post
    How can anyone without a confession ever PROVE she spiked the girls drink, which lead to her death?
    I missed the forensic test. There's probably enough as written, even without a confession.

    Prosecution has:

    (1) Bottle of poison in Katie's possession
    (2) Same poison found in Cheryl's glass (no idea how they tested that but whatever)
    (3) Video of Katie giving Cheryl the glass with the poison in it
    (4) Motive

    Whether or not they could get a murder charge is a different story (as opposed to some lesser homicide charge) but it's arguably enough to convict of something.

    Originally Posted by jclarsen View Post
    OP lives in the uk so i figured he'd use CL. i'm not too familiar with our pals across the pond.
    lulz, good call then brah. OP, can't help with your question unless you tell us what the requirements are for murder in the U.K.
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    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jclarsen View Post
    OP lives in the uk so i figured he'd use CL. i'm not too familiar with our pals across the pond.
    haha this i was lost as hell with your last post brah
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  20. #20
    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ecnewyx View Post
    Depends on the jurisdiction.

    Depraved heart murder is old common law, but the analysis ^^^ is still more or less accurate.

    (1) Would prosecution have problems proving it based solely on what you said? Maybe. All the video shows is that they swapped drinks. Prosecution would have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Katie actually put the poison in there with the intent of harming the other girl.

    (2) Is the ambulance's lack of a defibrillator an intervening cause that breaks the chain of causation? Again, depends on the jurisdiction. Most would say no.
    repped, good info here brah
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    Registered User IronLyfe's Avatar
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    What would this come under gross negligence manslaughter, what could I talk about for mens rea, actus rea? Please help brahs, appreciate it.
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    Didn't read the OP (I would if you provided cliffs) but manslaughter is just murder without the mens rea. MS can be reckless or negligent. We did not go into great detail about gross negligence manslaughter but for negligence in law in general I think you would have to apply the 'but for' test.

    For the actus rea, I would just use Cock's definition of murder (the part about the actus rea).
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    Originally Posted by Focusfire777 View Post
    Didn't read the OP (I would if you provided cliffs) but manslaughter is just murder without the mens rea. MS can be reckless or negligent. We did not go into great detail about gross negligence manslaughter but for negligence in law in general I think you would have to apply the 'but for' test.

    For the actus rea, I would just use Cock's definition of murder (the part about the actus rea).
    Okay here brah I cut some of it, please could you give me a structure and in brief what to speak about. Really appreciate the help.

    - Katie was desperate to make sure that Cheryl was not able to compete in the ?Miss Celebrity 2009? contest. Katie was a keen horse rider and decided to use Proquinodril, a powerful tranquilliser used for horses, to spike her drink.

    -Katie was aware that in some circles this drug was used recreationally and made people very sick. That morning she had read in the paper that a 12 year old boy who had accidentally taken the drug had died. The article had been titled ?Death Drug Claims Latest Victim.?

    -She did not read the rest of the piece which went on to say that a significant amount of the drug currently in use was in fact not actually Proquinodril but a complex chemical mix which had already resulted in 17 horses and 4 adults in America dying in the last month alone. It also advised anyone with supplies of Porquinodril to bring them to their nearest Vet immediately so it could be analysed.

    -Katie was cautious after reading headline and used a little but label wore off & couldn?t read correct dose for a horse and made a guess based on bottle size.

    -She hoped Cheryl would up in hospital as she was sure she took drugs to stay thin hoping this would create scandal and ruin her career. The more longer she was in hospital the better.

    -She spikes Cheryls drink at party, Cheryl drinks immediately and throws a fit, doctor asks for info and what she drank, Katie keeps quiet.

    -Doctor claims to have seen similar symptoms with Proquinodril and said that unless she was correctly diagnosed she could have a heart attack and die. Katie knew it was very serious but thought she would not get such an opportunity again to get rid of her competitor and if Cheryl died she could live with it.

    -Paramedics alive-give cheryl sedative but goes into cardiac arrest on way to hospital and dies. Ambulance should have had defibrillator to re-start her heart but had been stolen earlier.

    -Later CCTV showed Katie swapping her glass with Cheryl?s and forensic tests linked the Proquinodril to the same batch as Katie had in her shed.
    Katie was charged with murder
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    Originally Posted by akkxn View Post
    hay dude I'll PM you my crim law notes. You should learn the **** by yourself though judging by your lack of understanding for such a basic Q (srs)
    thanks brah..ive been going to lectures but the work just toppled onto me and didnt get much time to revise. Damn mess. Hopefully I can make a good attempt done for thursday.
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    OK first of all you need to familiarise yourself with Coke's definition of murder:

    Any man of the age of discretion and of sound memory who unlawfully causes the death of a reasonable creature in being within the king's peace with malice aforethought is guilty of murder.

    Judging from the cliffs, I would pursue a case for murder (unless you're told to use manslaughter).

    Things you need to prove:

    Causation

    Defendant (D)'s acts or omission must be a 'but-for' cause of Victim (V)'s death. I.e., there is no intervening cause.

    There's not much dispute in the actus rea in this case so I'm not gonna blab on about it. The main issue would be the mens rea.

    If you intend to cause grievous bodily harm or recklessly cause GBH, then that satisfies the MR of murder. You would argue that the spiking of the drink was intended to cause GBH and since it ended up in the V's death, it would constitute murder regardless of her initial intent. Hope this helps.
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    Originally Posted by IronLyfe View Post
    whats the difference between involuntary manslaughter and murder, or is it the same thing brah?? I have notes here for homocide and murder, can I use those?
    Don't know, in Aus we only have one type of MS. There is a surprisingly good amount of info on law on Wikipedia btw. Seems legit.

    EDIT: I just remembered, I think involuntary MS was what they gave to murderers as a reduced sentence (because they pleaded guilty or whatever) before the law was changed. I'm not 100% sure on this but it's what I remember from the lecture.
    Last edited by Focusfire777; 11-17-2009 at 03:31 AM.
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    Since she intended to harm Cheryl, murders better arguement. Id only use manslaughter if there was no mens rea.
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    Originally Posted by Focusfire777 View Post
    OK first of all you need to familiarise yourself with Coke's definition of murder:

    Any man of the age of discretion and of sound memory who unlawfully causes the death of a reasonable creature in being within the king's peace with malice aforethought is guilty of murder.
    The fuk? This definition is awesome, lol.
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