Why Crossfitters shouldn't do Olympic lifts

[madaozeki]

Just wanted to document this as soon as I found it on YouTube. It's a very clear demonstration of Crossfit athletes with horrible form issues pushing heavy weights for hi-rep sets:



I've said it many times, but it bears repeating: Olympic lifts are NOT designed, or meant for high-rep training. If you decide to ignore that and do multiple reps anyways, you MUST have sharp form or else you're opening yourself up to an increased risk of injury, especially as more and more fatigue sets in.

Note that all 3 female lifters ended up in high-risk, compromising positions on the last rep of each set, trying to eke out one more rep. This is abominable and the coach or trainer should be ashamed, absolutely ashamed. And all 4 lifters had severe technical deficiencies throughout their sets, which is a clear indicator that they ALL need basic and proper instruction before even thinking of aiming for a max weight, regardless of rep count.

Blah.

/rant

[gbg]

I want to punch the guy talking in the face! what is he blind?

Everything about this is wrong and should have a "do not" added to the title.

This should also be made a sticky because I know there are are a a lot of people starting out doing high reps.

Good post mezzie.

[madaozeki]

I want to punch the guy talking in the face! what is he blind?

Everything about this is wrong and should have a "do not" added to the title.

This should also be made a sticky because I know there are are a a lot of people starting out doing high reps.

Good post mezzie.

Funnily enough, I actually watched the video without volume, so I had no idea anyone was saying anything! I'll have to watch it with sound later and continue my rant

[gbg]

Funnily enough, I actually watched the video without volume, so I had no idea anyone was saying anything! I'll have to watch it with sound later and continue my rant

You should spread this throughout the forum it's really a very useful piece of information to some, especially those that think crossfitt is the ****.

[spirit3530]

LULZ once again Crossfit fails and abuses training methodology

[Arlecchino]

No ****. Been involved in other discussions about the cult of crossfit around this place, including the supp misc. Funny thing is, everyone who knows jack **** about OL'ing agrees that they should not be done in this manner.

[spirit3530]

This is another reason why I hate Crossfit because the behavior seem like over the long run might cause more injuries than success for those theat become "serious" about training via the cross fit dogma.

[jdelarod]

my wrists and elbows ache just watching those guys reverse curl the weight up.

I was big into Crossfit, took me about 4 months for my shoulders and kness to recover. Also realized that 175 kipping pullups equals approximatley 10 deadhang pullups.

[gbg]

Just watched the vid again, WTF is the second guy doing??????

he's doing just about everything wrong.

[SquatzAndPuke]

Oly lifts are perfectly fine at high reps IF used as a conditioning tool. Most Crossfitters will never have good form at olympic lifts, but most will never do an olympic lifting competition, so who cares?

[J.L.C.]

Oly lifts are perfectly fine at high reps IF used as a conditioning tool. Most Crossfitters will never have good form at olympic lifts, but most will never do an olympic lifting competition, so who cares?

The risk of injury is the issue. Proper form is integral in reducing the risk; these lifters and their coach clearly have no regard for safety.

[gbg]

Oly lifts are perfectly fine at high reps IF used as a conditioning tool. Most Crossfitters will never have good form at olympic lifts, but most will never do an olympic lifting competition, so who cares?

So your technique or injury prevention doesn't matter unless you compete?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you that's the biggest load of crap next to crossfit.

[madaozeki]

Oly lifts are perfectly fine at high reps IF used as a conditioning tool. Most Crossfitters will never have good form at olympic lifts, but most will never do an olympic lifting competition, so who cares?

But that's a contradiction if you also accept premise #4 below:

Your Premises:
1. Oly lifts are fine at high reps if used as a conditioning tool
2. Most Crossfitters will never have good form
3. Most will never do an olympic lifting competition

Your conclusion:
So who cares?

My premise
4. Noone should do olympic lifts with poor form, ESPECIALLY at high reps, because of the increased risk of injury.

(regardless of the fact that I firmly reject premise #1 above, the point still stands)

I mean really, did you watch especially the 3 women when they approached the end of their sets?

I only care about well-meaning, eager-to-learn athletes who are miscoached into developing dangerous form (bad) habits, and being led to think it's all OK as long as they "push through it" until the end of the set. It's honestly SOOOO easy to coach reasonable form, making the ridiculousness of Crossfitting with Oly lifts at least a bit safer, though the end of high rep sets of oly lifts will never be pretty and will always be (unnecessarily) dangerous.

[Squinky]

What are the risks? I have done higher rep hang power cleans for a couple of times and never felt anything negative. What about high rep squats or deadlifts? Aren't those dangerous too?

[Arlecchino]

What are the risks? I have done higher rep hang power cleans for a couple of times and never felt anything negative. What about high rep squats or deadlifts? Aren't those dangerous too?

CNS fatigue, as well as secondary messenger systems, fatigue more quickly on the O-lifts. This increases the risk of injury.

[madaozeki]

I finally broke down and listened to the commentating, and threw up a little in my mouth.

I posted a very constructive yet critical comment on the vid, but it never appeared. Apparently Crossfit Old Town is in to propaganda and stifling all criticism.

[CHS55]

Isn't it a little bit dangerous to be doing cleans without shoes?

[madaozeki]

Isn't it a little bit dangerous to be doing cleans without shoes?

Yes.

[kthxbai]

What are the risks? I have done higher rep hang power cleans for a couple of times and never felt anything negative. What about high rep squats or deadlifts? Aren't those dangerous too?

Whether you succeed or fail, the bar is still on your back in a squat and still in your hands in a deadlift. A clean is flying through the air (unless you are reverse curling it) and you want it to land in the right spot. You can't decide halfway through that you aren't going to make it and just drop it.

[Arlecchino]

I finally broke down and listened to the commentating, and threw up a little in my mouth.

I posted a very constructive yet critical comment on the vid, but it never appeared. Apparently Crossfit Old Town is in to propaganda and stifling all criticism.

See: cult

[liegelord]

CNS fatigue, as well as secondary messenger systems, fatigue more quickly on the O-lifts. This increases the risk of injury.

^^this.

Also Squinky, Oly lifts are about speed and after a few reps you are going to slow down. If you train slow, you'll be slow.

[SquatzAndPuke]

The risk of injury is the issue. Proper form is integral in reducing the risk; these lifters and their coach clearly have no regard for safety.

So your technique or injury prevention doesn't matter unless you compete?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you that's the biggest load of crap next to crossfit.

But that's a contradiction if you also accept premise #4 below:

Your Premises:
1. Oly lifts are fine at high reps if used as a conditioning tool
2. Most Crossfitters will never have good form
3. Most will never do an olympic lifting competition

Your conclusion:
So who cares?

My premise
4. Noone should do olympic lifts with poor form, ESPECIALLY at high reps, because of the increased risk of injury.

(regardless of the fact that I firmly reject premise #1 above, the point still stands)

I mean really, did you watch especially the 3 women when they approached the end of their sets?

I only care about well-meaning, eager-to-learn athletes who are miscoached into developing dangerous form (bad) habits, and being led to think it's all OK as long as they "push through it" until the end of the set. It's honestly SOOOO easy to coach reasonable form, making the ridiculousness of Crossfitting with Oly lifts at least a bit safer, though the end of high rep sets of oly lifts will never be pretty and will always be (unnecessarily) dangerous.

I just don't see this huge "risk of injury" that you all seem so concerned about. Yeah, the form sucks, but it's not like their body is about to explode in a mass of mangled bllod and gore from their 115lb jumping reverse curls.

In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that their bad form actually reduces injury potential because it decreases the amount of weight that can be used and the amount of reps that can be done.

[Achilles-]

lol hate crossfit, they thing they are so fit because they practice all parts of physical activity but they never focus enough to get good at any of them.

[gbg]

I just don't see this huge "risk of injury" that you all seem so concerned about. Yeah, the form sucks, but it's not like their body is about to explode in a mass of mangled bllod and gore from their 115lb jumping reverse curls.

In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that their bad form actually reduces injury potential because it decreases the amount of weight that can be used and the amount of reps that can be done.

They are being coached by a "supposed professional" who should know better, there is nothing worse than a teacher who doesn't know how to teach.

Many people look to them for information thinking they will have the correct answers, obviously this is not the case in this circumstance.

People who take what they do seriously take everything into consideration, no their body won't explode in a mass of mangled blood and gore from their 115lb jumping reverse curls as you put it, but they are at risk by doing things you shouldn't be doing with with this exercise and are simply doing it wrong which is not acceptable when you claim to be someone who knows what there talking about and has credentials.

As to your second comment it's not worth replying to.

[AusLifter06]

Football hang cleaning the bar to mid chest is great for the wrists. Why stop there? Could have done 3 more forced reps IMO.

[madaozeki]

I just don't see this huge "risk of injury" that you all seem so concerned about. Yeah, the form sucks, but it's not like their body is about to explode in a mass of mangled bllod and gore from their 115lb jumping reverse curls.

First of all, 115lbs and 105lbs were being used by women who probably weigh around that, so it's close to their own bodyweight. In other words, it's not "light" to them. the male athlete was using 185lbs, which is basically 84kg. Again, not exactly "light".

Second, the risk of injury may not be huge, Rather, it's simply INCREASED do to poor form. Why aim for a max weight at max reps on an exercise that you can't even do one basic rep on that a reasonable coach would say "OK, good stuff. Now let's add a bit of weight and get to work!" Are we even watching the same video? If someone posted a vid of this form in this forum asking for advice, they'd be told to drop the weight right down and change basically EVERY SINGLE THING THEY'RE DOING before even thinking of adding weight. But here, we have coach after coach after coach encouraging them "yeah! That's it! Way to go! Grind out one more! You can do it!"

And for what possible benefit? Explain the possible benefit that they derive from this, whether it outweighs the potential risk, and whether there aren't more productive alternatives, and maybe I'll understand better. But until you've done that, I still say it's among the stupidest, most misguided training protocols ever conceived, coupled with poor instruction leading to poor form. They couldn't have gotten more wrong if they'd huddled for a week to think something up.

In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that their bad form actually reduces injury potential because it decreases the amount of weight that can be used and the amount of reps that can be done.

So you agree that the form sucks. Poor form of course does not equal instant injury. Rather it merely increases the risk. If it didn't increase the risk of injury, it wouldn't be considered poor form. Plus, the lifters are aiming for max reps. Poor form degrades over time to even worse form. Even worse form, by definition, is riskier than poor form. They are being coached to go for as many reps as possible or die (see video slogan: "Rest Later." Also, listen to the inane coach). Every extra rep they try for adds incrementally to the injury risk. Every extra rep is done with increasingly worse form.

Your point doesn't make any sense: WHY RELY ON AN EXERCISE DONE WITH BAD FORM (which you agree they have) WHEN THE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT AND REPS DONE IS LIMITED BY SAID BAD FORM? Why not (a) do something you can do with decent form and thus get more reps and use more weight so it's productive? or (b) improve your damn form so at least you're doing this bullcrap safely?

I know you see nothing wrong with it, but it just simply makes no sense from any point of view. The argument isn't that they'll die doing this. It's that there's no logical reason to be doing it when there are so many other perfectly safe and productive ways to be training whatever it is they're going for.

Olympic lifts are all-out, single-max-effort (or near max-effort) SPEED-based lifts. The limiting factor is NOT strength, but power. You don't see a sprinter training 100m "reps". If they do more than one sprint, they rest sufficiently between them so each one is done while as fresh and explosive as possible. You don't see a shot-putter do put after put after put, getting slower and slower on each rep until the put simply falls from their hand. These lifts are just not meant for high reps, and jump-reverse-curls without a proper elbow whip or rack position are a horrible, horrible substitute for any sort of productive training.

I guess everyone knows my opinion on this matter by now, so I'll stop!

[Arlecchino]

I just don't see this huge "risk of injury" that you all seem so concerned about. Yeah, the form sucks, but it's not like their body is about to explode in a mass of mangled bllod and gore from their 115lb jumping reverse curls.

In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that their bad form actually reduces injury potential because it decreases the amount of weight that can be used and the amount of reps that can be done.

Because they are not racking the bar on the shoulders, forcing the joints of the wrist and elbow to take the weight while in an unstable position. It does not matter that they are using less weight, over time this will lead to damage to the carpals, excessive opening and probably tendon-related injuries of said joints, etc.

When the bar is racked properly, the force generated by receiving the bar is absorbed by the much stronger muscles of the legs and torso, as opposed to the much smaller muscles of the arms and shoulders.

Accident waiting to happen.

Plus, of course, the overall decrease in efficiency as the CNS and secondary messenger systems fatigue which can lead to an increase in the risk of injury as well due to poor technique.

[madaozeki]

Because they are not racking the bar on the shoulders, forcing the joints of the wrist and elbow to take the weight while in an unstable position. It does not matter that they are using less weight, over time this will lead to damage to the carpals, excessive opening and probably tendon-related injuries of said joints, etc.

When the bar is racked properly, the force generated by receiving the bar is absorbed by the much stronger muscles of the legs and torso, as opposed to the much smaller muscles of the arms and shoulders.

Accident waiting to happen.

Plus, of course, the overall decrease in efficiency as the CNS and secondary messenger systems fatigue which can lead to an increase in the risk of injury as well due to poor technique.

Plus what he said

[Squinky]

CNS fatigue, as well as secondary messenger systems, fatigue more quickly on the O-lifts. This increases the risk of injury.

What kind of injury?

[Squinky]

lol hate crossfit, they thing they are so fit because they practice all parts of physical activity but they never focus enough to get good at any of them.

Errr, so? That is kinda like the definition of overall fitness, be good at all of them, but great at nothing. Many people look them as athletes (narrow mindness) but they are not, so they can't comprehend their philosophy.