Did lots of reading, don't know enough to pick a program (I'm 4.4% BF and very fit)

[planker101]

I've been working out on my own program for about 4 months. I'm extremely active, very healthy, and ready for a real workout. I've seen some serious gains in the last 4 months, but those have stopped.

I've read a lot of the stickies and checked out the various suggested routines, but I just don't know enough about working out to make a good decision.

What I want:
-Strength and size gains throughout my entire body (not looking to just have big arms and chest)
-emphasis on my core strength (I like to rock climb)
-To maintain my low body fat
-To workout 5-6 days a week (I'm addicted)
-To maintain my definition (I do not think that it is worth my time to become big and strong if I end up being one of those guys who's biceps look like an out of focus picture)

My job is some serious cardio, 3 days a week I scuba dive and scrub the bottoms of boats. This may not sound like much, but for 6-8 hours a day I am doing a total body water resistance cardio workout.
I lift 4-5 days a week
I don't eat enough (not intentionally, I try to eat 4 meals a day, but since I'm losing weight I'm obviously not getting enough calories)

Any information or advice on workout routines and diet (to gain muscle and weight) would be greatly appreciated. I do not mind reading articles, but I know very little about working out, so most of what I have read doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I would say I am a beginner in knowledge, but intermediate in workout ability and physical fitness.

[Wildtim]

Maintaining your definition will be dependent upon diet control. For you it sounds like diet is going to be the biggest key. You really need to get a handle on this because you are currently losing weight and don't want to be. The key here is going to be eat a lot more but keep it clean.

Now your next problem in meeting your goal is this desire to workout 5-6 days a week. especially with a physical job more time in the gym doe not equate to greater gains. In fact you are probably hurting your progress by working out so often.

Something steadily progressive like Starting Strength or All pro's beginner routine is what will give you the best bang for your buck right now. You are very fit but still very much a beginner in the gaining of muscle and strength. These routines will not only help you reach your physical goals but teach you how to maintain a solid routine and give you a chance to manipulate your diet to make the gains you want to see.

[bluedot]

I'm curious how you arrived at 4.4% bodyfat. This is a freakishly low number.

EDIT - I mean, how did you measure that number. It's incredibly specific so for it to be accurate it would have to be carefully determined, but it's so low I'm a little dubious that it's accurate so maybe it wasn't so carefully determined.

[CookAndrewB]

Actually, that job sounds awesome.

Seriously.

Don't overthink this. Pick something designed for beginners (IE, you won't be doign it forever, this isn't marriage) and get busy following the plan exactly as it is described.

[Ironwake]

Maintaining your definition will be dependent upon diet control. For you it sounds like diet is going to be the biggest key. You really need to get a handle on this because you are currently losing weight and don't want to be. The key here is going to be eat a lot more but keep it clean.

Now your next problem in meeting your goal is this desire to workout 5-6 days a week. especially with a physical job more time in the gym doe not equate to greater gains. In fact you are probably hurting your progress by working out so often.

Something steadily progressive like Starting Strength or All pro's beginner routine is what will give you the best bang for your buck right now. You are very fit but still very much a beginner in the gaining of muscle and strength. These routines will not only help you reach your physical goals but teach you how to maintain a solid routine and give you a chance to manipulate your diet to make the gains you want to see.

Wildtim never fails to give good advice on this forum, this ^

[CookAndrewB]

Wildtim never fails to give good advice on this forum, this ^

No offense to you or Tim (I like WT, he does give good advice) but whether you eat clean or dirty is of little consequence. If you eat over your maintenance level you will gain fat. Period. Doesn't matter if you eat 6000 cals of lettuce or 6000 cals of McNuggets. Cals are cals in the world of gaining or losing weight.

[CaptainGorgeous]

No offense to you or Tim (I like WT, he does give good advice) but whether you eat clean or dirty is of little consequence. If you eat over your maintenance level you will gain fat. Period. Doesn't matter if you eat 6000 cals of lettuce or 6000 cals of McNuggets. Cals are cals in the world of gaining or losing weight.

This. I just make sure I'm getting enough protein.

[CookAndrewB]

This. I just make sure I'm getting enough protein.

The macros have to line up, and there may be some differences in hormonal response in some people when you look at a clean/dirty bulk, but all in all I think most people have a hell of a time meeting their caloric needs eating veggies and brown rice. Clean foods are much less calorically dense, and that can be an issue when trying to gain weight. You get guys who eat like hell, feel stuffed all day, and BARELY hit 2500 cals. I don't suggest an all Burgerking bulk, but the truth is that these foods can help if you are trying to gain weight, and they won't hurt you if you are trying to lose weight so long as you are accounting for the cals.

[Wildtim]

My feeling is if he is at say 5% it will be a lot easier for hime to control his intake eating clean than dirty.

My only problem with dirty eating is how hard it is to sort out the macros when they are all mushed into a big mess slathered on a bun. If you can keep it sorted I don't care what you eat. To me thats the biggest advatage to a lot of clean vs. dirty foods, the ease of tracking them. That said it may be worth the effort because a burger sure tates better than a chicken breast with brown rice .

[CookAndrewB]

My feeling is if he is at say 5% it will be a lot easier for hime to control his intake eating clean than dirty.

My only problem with dirty eating is how hard it is to sort out the macros when they are all mushed into a big mess slathered on a bun. If you can keep it sorted I don't care what you eat. To me thats the biggest advatage to a lot of clean vs. dirty foods, the ease of tracking them. That said it may be worth the effort because a burger sure tates better than a chicken breast with brown rice .

Oh, I don't know. I'll bet it is way easier to look at a nutritional chart for McDonalds and know what you are eating than pouring stuff out of a box. Neither is going to be accurate, but at least fast food (and chains in general) have taken the guess work out of the equation. Likewise their portion controlling (similarity between two burgers at McDonalds is going to be horrifyingly consistent) is much better than most people will do at home. The trick is finding balanced selections that aren't fat or carb heavy, IMO. I wouldn't worry about fiber, you can always take a supplement for that, same with vitamins.

[NorwegianGuy92]

No offense to you or Tim (I like WT, he does give good advice) but whether you eat clean or dirty is of little consequence. If you eat over your maintenance level you will gain fat. Period. Doesn't matter if you eat 6000 cals of lettuce or 6000 cals of McNuggets. Cals are cals in the world of gaining or losing weight.

Yeah, but you know, there is this thing called health....

And it's hard to get 200g protein from McDonalds food, without a crazy amount of excessive calories.

[CookAndrewB]

Yeah, but you know, there is this thing called health....

And it's hard to get 200g protein from McDonalds food, without a crazy amount of excessive calories.

Explain it to me... I'm all ears oh wise one

[CaptainGorgeous]

Yeah, but you know, there is this thing called health....

Obviously, but this usually isn't the only reason that "clean bulking" is often suggested, so your post doesn't really contribute anything to this thread.

[redbinder]

You are likely nowhere near 4.4% BF. Pics plz.

[NorwegianGuy92]

Explain it to me... I'm all ears oh wise one

Well, isn't that pretty obvious? If you eat double cheeseburgers, kebabs, or something similar, you'll probably get a decent amount of protein. But a LOT of calories. A lot more than you need in order to build muscle.

Let's that you would eat mostly clean food to get your required amount of protein. It shouldn't really be problem getting a calorie excess of a few hundreds calories by eating clean. But of course, people are different.

I have friend that can eat...probably 3000-4000 calories a day, and not gain ****. And they weigh like 140 lbs. I on the other hand, weigh 180 lbs, and I can eat pretty much normally, without force feeding myself in any way, and still gain 5 lbs a month..so obviously I have to be more careful with eating food that has a lot of calories.

But I get your point, for a skinny teenager it might be necessary. For me it's not.

[CookAndrewB]

Well, isn't that pretty obvious? If you eat double cheeseburgers, kebabs, or something similar, you'll probably get a decent amount of protein. But a LOT of calories. A lot more than you need in order to build muscle.

Let's that you would eat mostly clean food to get your required amount of protein. It shouldn't really be problem getting a calorie excess of a few hundreds calories by eating clean. But of course, people are different.

I have friend that can eat...probably 3000-4000 calories a day, and not gain ****. And they weigh like 140 lbs. I on the other hand, weigh 180 lbs, and I can eat pretty much normally, without force feeding myself in any way, and still gain 5 lbs a month..so obviously I have to be more careful with eating food that has a lot of calories.

But I get your point, for a skinny teenager it might be necessary. For me it's not.

But your argument assumes you are going to rush out and overeat. By that mentality ANY food would be a problem. You have to track calories, of course. Nobody said fast food is an all you can eat lean mass gold mine. What I'm saying is that one calorie isn't better than another where weight loss/gain is concerned.

[NorwegianGuy92]

But your argument assumes you are going to rush out and overeat. By that mentality ANY food would be a problem. You have to track calories, of course. Nobody said fast food is an all you can eat lean mass gold mine. What I'm saying is that one calorie isn't better than another where weight loss/gain is concerned.

That's true, but let's say you're supposed to eat 3500 calories.
When you've gotten to that point, by eating fast food like burgers, kebabs, fries, and all that, then it's likely that you haven't gotten all the protein you would need. Now I may be wrong, but a double cheeseburger doesn't contain that much protein, but quite a lot of calories? If it doesn't, then..well, I was wrong.

And it's a lot easier to overeat on cheeseburgers than on chicken breasts. Just saying, but I gain weight just by looking at food, so I'm just talking from my experience.
However, I don't see any reason as to why you should eat fast food instead of eating healthier foods...

[CookAndrewB]

That's true, but let's say you're supposed to eat 3500 calories.
When you've gotten to that point, by eating fast food like burgers, kebabs, fries, and all that, then it's likely that you haven't gotten all the protein you would need. Now I may be wrong, but a double cheeseburger doesn't contain that much protein, but quite a lot of calories? If it doesn't, then..well, I was wrong.

And it's a lot easier to overeat on cheeseburgers than on chicken breasts. Just saying, but I gain weight just by looking at food, so I'm just talking from my experience.
However, I don't see any reason as to why you should eat fast food instead of eating healthier foods...

Three flame-broiled beef patties with two slices of American cheese, crisp lettuce, creamy mayo, red ripe tomatoes, pickles and onions?all on a toasted sesame seed bun. It?s once, twice, three times the tasty, and it?s waiting for you at BURGER KING?.

There is a triple flame broiled whopper with lettuce and mustard (no other toppings or condiments). Alot of cals, but assuming you had planned this into your daily consumption, it isn't probably worse than people would do at home if they weren't being careful. Keep in mind too that there are probably better options at most fast food places too, if you do your research ahead of time.

Add To Meal
970 calories
59g fat
24g saturated fat
3g trans fat
190mg cholesterol
45g carbs
7g sugar
68g protein
690mg sodium

[NorwegianGuy92]

Not to bad, but a very high amount of fat. I'm not saying it's wrong, or won't work, because it probably will. Especially for the people who can eat almost as much as they want. I'm not like that, and I guess that's why burgers and such don't work very well for me. I don't feel any less hungry, even though there are more calories in it. So I just end up overeating, and getting fat.

But hey, if you don't, then that's good for you

[Nick1971]

No offense to you or Tim (I like WT, he does give good advice) but whether you eat clean or dirty is of little consequence. If you eat over your maintenance level you will gain fat. Period. Doesn't matter if you eat 6000 cals of lettuce or 6000 cals of McNuggets. Cals are cals in the world of gaining or losing weight.

To be clear, it does matter whether or not you meet your nutritional goals. It's just a separate issue than whether or not your gain or lose weight. That said, it is important that enough of your diet is healthy enough to give you the nutrition you need. You want enough protein, for example. I've been there, and a crapload of junkfood is a terrible dietary plan. I know that personally, once I cleaned up my diet, I shed pounds pretty consistently and I have become healthier, and have felt better. A lot of the poor-quality, calorie dense foods are poor alternatives to good-yet-moderately dense foods out there. You can basically make a win/win situation with the right food choices.

[Gordon Bombay]

lol @ 4.4% BF.


I was told the same thing by one of my fat co-workers who said he used to be 4%. The funny thing about that is he has no idea what the **** he's talking about.

[Wildtim]

Three flame-broiled beef patties with two slices of American cheese, crisp lettuce, creamy mayo, red ripe tomatoes, pickles and onions?all on a toasted sesame seed bun. It?s once, twice, three times the tasty, and it?s waiting for you at BURGER KING?.

There is a triple flame broiled whopper with lettuce and mustard (no other toppings or condiments). Alot of cals, but assuming you had planned this into your daily consumption, it isn't probably worse than people would do at home if they weren't being careful. Keep in mind too that there are probably better options at most fast food places too, if you do your research ahead of time.

Add To Meal
970 calories
59g fat
24g saturated fat
3g trans fat
190mg cholesterol
45g carbs
7g sugar
68g protein
690mg sodium

You know three of those a day and nothing else but water andI would probably gain muscle while losing weight. I think I found my next cut diet

[planker101]

I will re-read the Starting Strength and All pro's beginner routine articles then ask some more specific questions (thanks for suggesting those two)

I just noticed that there is actually a nutrition section, so I will post more specific diet questions there. I currently do not eat candy, do not eat fast food, and only drink 1-2 times a month so I'll be trying to stick to healthy foods (totally recommend leaving out those three items for whats it's worth, I have more energy and feel healthier since leaving those off my plate)

as far as my body fat goes, yes, it is freakishly low (and I hope to keep it that way) I did a hydrostatic body composition analysis a couple weeks ago, so that number is about as accurate as one can hope for. Apparently I can't post pictures or links yet as I have not made 30 posts, so whoever wanted that will just have to settle for A: believing hydrostatic testing is valid or B: not believing hydrostatic testing is valid

Thanks for the helpful responses (also thanks for the fast food vs. healthy food responses as those were pretty funny to read)

[ptwa9]

Pick a steak

[CookAndrewB]

To be clear, it does matter whether or not you meet your nutritional goals. It's just a separate issue than whether or not your gain or lose weight. That said, it is important that enough of your diet is healthy enough to give you the nutrition you need. You want enough protein, for example. I've been there, and a crapload of junkfood is a terrible dietary plan. I know that personally, once I cleaned up my diet, I shed pounds pretty consistently and I have become healthier, and have felt better. A lot of the poor-quality, calorie dense foods are poor alternatives to good-yet-moderately dense foods out there. You can basically make a win/win situation with the right food choices.

What nutrition are you concerned about? If you are worried about vitamins or fiber, supplement them. So what else are you worried about? If you want more healthy fat, take a fist full of fish oil... If you are worried about regulating body pH, try a greens supplement. None of these supplementals are really going to add a lot of cals.

Pick a steak

Ok... that one.

[Nick1971]

What nutrition are you concerned about? If you are worried about vitamins or fiber, supplement them. So what else are you worried about? If you want more healthy fat, take a fist full of fish oil... If you are worried about regulating body pH, try a greens supplement. None of these supplementals are really going to add a lot of cals.

Maybe it's just our week of not being on the same wavelength or something. My point is that fast food is often calorie dense and not nutritionally sound. You can sure pack a lot of calories into your meals with fast food, and probably still need some supplementation, and usually more calories that come with it. Not all supplementation is fiber and multivitamins. Protein drinks/shakes can really add up in terms of calories, if you are supplementing that on top of poor nutrition.

I've been overweight, and and was approximately 29% bodyfat, and I was miserable. I killed soda and fast food and I shed pounds without having to go hungry. I get more protein (more complete protein as well) better nutrition, consumed less calories, and saved money. Win, win, win ... win.

Regarding "what I am worried about" - it's consuming too many calories, without enough nutrition. Adding more food to round out the nutrition side of things, just adds more calories. I'm just saying "eat better." Higher quality food for the calories you get. A Big Mac meal with large fries and soda isn't it.

[zephed56]

And it's hard to get 200g protein from McDonalds food, without a crazy amount of excessive calories.

mcgangbangs and double, double cheesburgers ftw imo. Maximize the meat to bun ratio.