Can it be this simple?

[ladymystique]

I have had my certification since April.....with out going in to to much information on my personal life and my situation, why can't I just cut out all the BS of an LLC, insurance, tax ect and just do my own thing getting paid under the table but still advertising with buisness cards, word of mouth and website?

Besides the possibility of being sued, I train people in their homes. Or what are the consequences of training someone at your gym if you have a membership and they have one as well and they pay you under the table?

What if i want to train people for free at my gym just to get some experience and referalls. Really what can management do if your just helpin out a friend?

Im a newbie at this and plan on getting all the other stuff in order like the insurance, LLC ect all in good time...but with my current situation having the LLC and taxes does not help me as im a single mother...not goin into detail about that.

[Environ]

First, because it's illegal. You are required by law to pay your taxes.

Secondly, you need insurance in case a client gets injured and sues the hell out of you.

Thirdly, personal training is a completely unregulated and, what some may might say, unprofessional area. Wouldn't it be great if personal trainers got the respect they deserve (the good ones anyway)? But, we have to earn that respect and, to do that, we need to have very high standards and an ability to defend ourselves against criticism. Operating under the table like you say brings the whole industry down. In my opinion, personal training is as important as medicine because we can use our skills to prevent people from suffering from many illnesses in the first place.

[Lasharm]

First, because it's illegal. You are required by law to pay your taxes.

Secondly, you need insurance in case a client gets injured and sues the hell out of you.

Thirdly, personal training is a completely unregulated and, what some may might say, unprofessional area. Wouldn't it be great if personal trainers got the respect they deserve (the good ones anyway)? But, we have to earn that respect and, to do that, we need to have very high standards and an ability to defend ourselves against criticism. Operating under the table like you say brings the whole industry down. In my opinion, personal training is as important as medicine because we can use our skills to prevent people from suffering from many illnesses in the first place.

^This, repped!

[jkdman81]

well said....
before trying all these shady things why try actually doit the right way and get some experience under your belt

[Al Shades]

I have had my certification since April.....with out going in to to much information on my personal life and my situation, why can't I just cut out all the BS of an LLC, insurance, tax ect and just do my own thing getting paid under the table but still advertising with buisness cards, word of mouth and website?

You basically can. You certainly don't need an LLC to work as a trainer. Taxes? It's your call, really. Insurance? Same. If you make any income, you're a sole proprietor.

Besides the possibility of being sued, I train people in their homes. Or what are the consequences of training someone at your gym if you have a membership and they have one as well and they pay you under the table?

None besides the potential of the gym finding out and kicking you both out. But I imagine they'd give you a chance to stop before they terminated your memberships. Some gyms actively look for people who do this to put a stop to it. Others don't. It comes down to whether or not they have in-house training.

What if i want to train people for free at my gym just to get some experience and referalls. Really what can management do if your just helpin out a friend?

They can kick you out if they don't like what you're doing. You need to gauge the atmosphere before going ahead with something like that.

You should consider doing some work on the side as an escort. In all seriousness, it is the best source of income that a woman can hope to attain on her own and it is available to nearly any western woman in your age range.

Thirdly, personal training is a completely unregulated and, what some may might say, unprofessional area. Wouldn't it be great if personal trainers got the respect they deserve (the good ones anyway)? But, we have to earn that respect and, to do that, we need to have very high standards and an ability to defend ourselves against criticism. Operating under the table like you say brings the whole industry down. In my opinion, personal training is as important as medicine because we can use our skills to prevent people from suffering from many illnesses in the first place.

Doctors are mostly idiots. They do not deserve the respect they get from the general public. So no, it wouldn't be great. I don't want to be that of that way.

[ladymystique]

Okay! I agree of course but if you are just getting started and trying to build your buisness is it so bad to at least get yourself out there! Doing some free sessions and some paid under the table?

[Al Shades]

No, it isn't bad. Sounds like you're looking for reassurance.

[Lasharm]

Okay! I agree of course but if you are just getting started and trying to build your buisness is it so bad to at least get yourself out there! Doing some free sessions and some paid under the table?

If you want to really get your name out there quick and make some money while doing it, take the following advice and run with it...

First, get your insurance because you do not want to be caught without it in an emergency-it'll ruin your life. Then find a studio gym where you can get room for cheap (some community centers will also allow you to rent rooms adequate for this very cheap). Then advertise and host group fitness classes (boot camp, step, zumba, whatever your good at and would appeal to your target clients).

With group classes you can charge $10 a head and usually you can get 10-20 people a class on a regular basis (some classes here in my small town get 30-40, and these are hosted 3-6 times a week). This will get you known very quickly in the area and give you the funding you need to progress. Also, out of the clients you get in the group classes, some of them are going to come and want private sessions, which you can charge more for.

As an example, I have a fellow trainer in my town who teaches Zumba 5 times a week. She gets $10 a head and 10-20 different people show up for the class every day. This is just a couple of hours of her time every weekday and she gets ~$750 a week. She pays the small gym she does this at ~$60 a week ($250month) and has insurance that runs her ~$300 a year, plus meal and fuel expenses (which can be written off), and taxes take a third off the top. This still leaves her with $300 to $400 a week! She then goes and trains clients a few times a week on top of that--mostly for social reasons--and does some step-aerobic classes for the heck of it (making the $10 a head for 3-5 more classes a week). She has more free time than she knows what to do with. And all this is done in a small lower-middle class redneck city in the middle of the mountains.

[Lasharm]

...

Also, this trainer has found recently that a local coffee shop/music club that has a dance floor. She spoke with the owners about what she was doing and the coffee shop owners let her host a weekly class there for free now (compensation is that the owners get free sessions at her classes). The dance floor can handle ~30 people easily and still has room for more and the sessions have been packed since she started!

I hope this info helps you get started and encourages you. You need to be careful starting up, there are too many pitfalls that can bite you in the ass later. Really, all you need is to get insurance, set up a sole-propietership (cheap and easy), and get a tax number. This will cover you till you get in a position to go big (LLC). Doing free sessions is ok, and you might be able to get away with an under the table transaction here and there--but don't let it get to be a habit.

[ladymystique]

Also, this trainer has found recently that a local coffee shop/music club that has a dance floor. She spoke with the owners about what she was doing and the coffee shop owners let her host a weekly class there for free now (compensation is that the owners get free sessions at her classes). The dance floor can handle ~30 people easily and still has room for more and the sessions have been packed since she started!

I hope this info helps you get started and encourages you. You need to be careful starting up, there are too many pitfalls that can bite you in the ass later. Really, all you need is to get insurance, set up a sole-propietership (cheap and easy), and get a tax number. This will cover you till you get in a position to go big (LLC). Doing free sessions is ok, and you might be able to get away with an under the table transaction here and there--but don't let it get to be a habit.

I really appreciate this advice! thanks a ton! When you get the ball rolling its a snow ball affect. Ive been running into people everywhere who have been giving me some very great advice and helping me out! Its amazing that how much you put into something the return is often ten fold!

[JulianBee]

I have had my certification since April.....with out going in to to much information on my personal life and my situation, why can't I just cut out all the BS of an LLC, insurance, tax ect and just do my own thing getting paid under the table but still advertising with buisness cards, word of mouth and website?

Besides the possibility of being sued, I train people in their homes. Or what are the consequences of training someone at your gym if you have a membership and they have one as well and they pay you under the table?

What if i want to train people for free at my gym just to get some experience and referalls. Really what can management do if your just helpin out a friend?

Im a newbie at this and plan on getting all the other stuff in order like the insurance, LLC ect all in good time...but with my current situation having the LLC and taxes does not help me as im a single mother...not goin into detail about that.

FYI if you don't pay your taxes, how do you expect to get a loan for a car? home? Do you have another job?

[theapexxxx]

Insurance is nonsense.
You don't need it. If your training people in their houses, they are insured under their homes liability insurance as are you.
The only time you need insurance is if its YOUR gym. Even working out in a normal gym, they have liability insurance too, so either way your covered.

[Environ]

Doctors are mostly idiots. They do not deserve the respect they get from the general public. So no, it wouldn't be great. I don't want to be that of that way.

While this might be true, that does not mean that personal trainers should not aspire to being better than them. A GP is a glorified drug dispenser, but that doesn't make them idiots. They are just limited in their knowledge of specific areas of health (that's why the are called GENERAL Practitioners). But we, as personal trainers and coaches, SPECIALISE in physical health and that makes us better.

We give people back their quality of life when we improve their fitness levels and help them to lose weight, or whatever their goals are. This is a hugely commendable profession. However, we must ensure that we self-regulate to make sure that very hight standards of service and PROFESSIONALISM are maintained. Too many people think that Personal Trainers are meatheads that know how to push weights. Personally, I take offence at that stereotyping. First of all, I am not a meathead. Secondly, I am a highly qualified individual in a number of fields with a lot of experience. I have an analytical mind and I use that as a tool for both my professions. I am not an uneducated lunk who throws weight around all day long and expects others to do the same. I think I speak for a lot of trainers here. Look at how many of the trainers on this site alone have their Batchelors degrees, in addition to their certifications.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now because you probably get my point. It's high time that Personal Training was give the credit it deserves while we in the industry to everything in our power to ensure that we earn the respect that I think we deserve.

[Environ]

Even working out in a normal gym, they have liability insurance too, so either way your covered.

Not if you're an independent contractor. Gym operators aren't so stupid as to leave themselves open like that.

[Lasharm]

Insurance is nonsense.
You don't need it. If your training people in their houses, they are insured under their homes liability insurance as are you.
The only time you need insurance is if its YOUR gym. Even working out in a normal gym, they have liability insurance too, so either way your covered.

Sorry man, Homeowner's Insurance doesn't work that way...

When you are an independent contractor, you need professional insurance. If the client gets hurt on your watch, it is your responsability. Homeowner's insurance will never cover that. It will however cover them if you get hurt.

Also, it you are in a gym and an independent contractor the injured client can go after both you and the gym where the injury occurred. You need professional insurance to cover you. You are right though, if you are working for a gym and are at that gym, you are "relatively" safe (the injured client could still name you in a suit).

[trance__dreamer]

If you want to really get your name out there quick and make some money while doing it, take the following advice and run with it...

First, get your insurance because you do not want to be caught without it in an emergency-it'll ruin your life. Then find a studio gym where you can get room for cheap (some community centers will also allow you to rent rooms adequate for this very cheap). Then advertise and host group fitness classes (boot camp, step, zumba, whatever your good at and would appeal to your target clients).

With group classes you can charge $10 a head and usually you can get 10-20 people a class on a regular basis (some classes here in my small town get 30-40, and these are hosted 3-6 times a week). This will get you known very quickly in the area and give you the funding you need to progress. Also, out of the clients you get in the group classes, some of them are going to come and want private sessions, which you can charge more for.

As an example, I have a fellow trainer in my town who teaches Zumba 5 times a week. She gets $10 a head and 10-20 different people show up for the class every day. This is just a couple of hours of her time every weekday and she gets ~$750 a week. She pays the small gym she does this at ~$60 a week ($250month) and has insurance that runs her ~$300 a year, plus meal and fuel expenses (which can be written off), and taxes take a third off the top. This still leaves her with $300 to $400 a week! She then goes and trains clients a few times a week on top of that--mostly for social reasons--and does some step-aerobic classes for the heck of it (making the $10 a head for 3-5 more classes a week). She has more free time than she knows what to do with. And all this is done in a small lower-middle class redneck city in the middle of the mountains.

oh my gosh!!! that's wicked! =O

[Lasharm]

oh my gosh!!! that's wicked! =O

Yeah, this lady has a wicked business sense when it comes to this.

She taught me a lot about promoting yourself as a trainer. I don't mind passing it on.

What's cool is she did this in our small city (10,000 population in city limits, 30,000 in county). I've seen so many trainers sit there in a small gym and fail due to not even thinking of group classes. They try to stick with 1 on 1 clients...

[trance__dreamer]

Yeah, this lady has a wicked business sense when it comes to this.

She taught me a lot about promoting yourself as a trainer. I don't mind passing it on.

What's cool is she did this in our small city (10,000 population in city limits, 30,000 in county). I've seen so many trainers sit there in a small gym and fail due to not even thinking of group classes. They try to stick with 1 on 1 clients...

yep yep. that's what i've been trying to do, as well, since i started teaching group fitness classes back in may of '09. i've been telling my participants about how my p/t'ing course is commin' along. (end of aug - mid sept; so, 2/3rds done!) i'm sure they've clued in to what i'm trying to do. but i'm gunna keep talkin' 'bout it, regardless. =P

i have a handout that i pass out to all new pple in each.and.every.one.of.my.classes. i'm hoping that it'll keep helping everyone feel comfortable w/ me & what not. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...roduction3.jpg)

anyway. so far, i'm just teaching @ gyms/rec centres/etc. but i'd love to rent out space, & charge whatever i want. i'm going to be doing that as soon as i think i have enough leads/interest. perhaps i'll work on that as i'm working on getting clients. i'll be doing that soon, right after i take the final exam/do all of the practicum stuff. (http://bcrpa.bc.ca/fitness_program/registration/ice.htm)

but yea. i was actually recruited to teach group fitness last summer. i had always thought about p/t'ing, though. & now i'm glad that i got my group fitness practicum out of the way this past winter & can now start on p/t'ing. i think it was a smart move to go through w/ the group fitness thing. i knew from the get go that it'd be a WICKED way to get clients, just like your friend is experiencing.

however, i wanted to get into p/t'ing, not for the more money & less work time. i live w/ my grandma, & that won't change any time soon. & i don't have expensive tastes. & i like keeping busy. rather, i'm getting into p/t'ing to change lives; sounds SO cliche...i know. but i did it to/for myself. so, i'm hopin' that i can do it to/for other pple, as well. my website kinda explains my phiolosophy on p/t'ing. i can p.m. you the linky if you'd like. =)

[MateusMcClay]

If you want to really get your name out there quick and make some money while doing it, take the following advice and run with it...

First, get your insurance because you do not want to be caught without it in an emergency-it'll ruin your life. Then find a studio gym where you can get room for cheap (some community centers will also allow you to rent rooms adequate for this very cheap). Then advertise and host group fitness classes (boot camp, step, zumba, whatever your good at and would appeal to your target clients).

With group classes you can charge $10 a head and usually you can get 10-20 people a class on a regular basis (some classes here in my small town get 30-40, and these are hosted 3-6 times a week). This will get you known very quickly in the area and give you the funding you need to progress. Also, out of the clients you get in the group classes, some of them are going to come and want private sessions, which you can charge more for.

As an example, I have a fellow trainer in my town who teaches Zumba 5 times a week. She gets $10 a head and 10-20 different people show up for the class every day. This is just a couple of hours of her time every weekday and she gets ~$750 a week. She pays the small gym she does this at ~$60 a week ($250month) and has insurance that runs her ~$300 a year, plus meal and fuel expenses (which can be written off), and taxes take a third off the top. This still leaves her with $300 to $400 a week! She then goes and trains clients a few times a week on top of that--mostly for social reasons--and does some step-aerobic classes for the heck of it (making the $10 a head for 3-5 more classes a week). She has more free time than she knows what to do with. And all this is done in a small lower-middle class redneck city in the middle of the mountains.

ok ive heard a couple people in ths forum talk about these group classes where people pay $10 a pop. maybe its a regional thing, but where i live a paid gym membership gets members free access to any class that gym offers. or they may charge an additional $20 a month for unlimited classes. i think people around here would laugh if they had to pay $10 a class. i know of many people who take 6-7 classes a week. thats $280 bucks a month just for classes wtf!

are these gyms charging membership fees to the gym and $10 for each class? seems like these type of classes could easily get undercut by gyms or instructors willing to offer much better deals for equal quality classes. also what part of the country are u in?

[Lasharm]

ok ive heard a couple people in ths forum talk about these group classes where people pay $10 a pop. maybe its a regional thing, but where i live a paid gym membership gets members free access to any class that gym offers. or they may charge an additional $20 a month for unlimited classes. i think people around here would laugh if they had to pay $10 a class. i know of many people who take 6-7 classes a week. thats $280 bucks a month just for classes wtf!

are these gyms charging membership fees to the gym and $10 for each class? seems like these type of classes could easily get undercut by gyms or instructors willing to offer much better deals for equal quality classes. also what part of the country are u in?

Yeah, the Health and Fitness center in Franklin (western NC) is like that (and they don't have independent trainers anymore-made them all sign noncompetes or leave...). The membership is $50-$70 monthly. Classes are included for free with that membership; however, they are limited because not many specialized trainers will sign up to go there. Also, people have something about them that makes them think they can afford 2-3 $10 sessions a week any day they are free rather than $50 a month and have to make time for Thursday at 1:15pm (Marketing 101: People don't think long term, shop on a whim, and will always go for the smaller number!)

Globo gyms and larger fitness centers usually just give the classes away to their clients... Some even go as far as requiring every trainer they hire to learn to host classes and don't pay them extra for it-and their non-compete agreement prevents those trainers from using that knowledge else ware... and that pisses me off big time (I discussed this recently on another training thread). It is just another reason to go independent and find space at community centers, small gyms, and studios.

There are several smaller studio gyms scattered throughout the county. They on the other hand mostly don't have noncompete agreements, and welcome independents because they know the secret... the more you offer to the public the more full time gym clients you will get. In fact, most of the smaller gyms are strictly for group classes and don't require monthly fees--you just walk in and pay for the day's class (meaning the public can just walk in without being intimidated by entry fees).

[Lasharm]

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...roduction3.jpg)

i'm getting into p/t'ing to change lives; sounds SO cliche...i know. but i did it to/for myself. so, i'm hopin' that i can do it to/for other pple, as well. my website kinda explains my phiolosophy on p/t'ing. i can p.m. you the linky if you'd like. =)

Love the introductory letter, got a great laugh at the Zumba comic at the bottom.

This is the attitude every trainer should have. Feel free to PM me your website. I'm always interested in seeing what other trainers are into.

[unauthorized]

I have had my certification since April.....with out going in to to much information on my personal life and my situation, why can't I just cut out all the BS of an LLC, insurance, tax ect and just do my own thing getting paid under the table but still advertising with buisness cards, word of mouth and website?

Besides the possibility of being sued, I train people in their homes. Or what are the consequences of training someone at your gym if you have a membership and they have one as well and they pay you under the table?

What if i want to train people for free at my gym just to get some experience and referalls. Really what can management do if your just helpin out a friend?

Im a newbie at this and plan on getting all the other stuff in order like the insurance, LLC ect all in good time...but with my current situation having the LLC and taxes does not help me as im a single mother...not goin into detail about that.

Yes it is that simple. There are people calling themselves trainers out there doing it under the table, no insurance, no certification and getting paid for it

[unauthorized]

We give people back their quality of life when we improve their fitness levels and help them to lose weight, or whatever their goals are.

There are more trainers who can't do this, than those that actually can

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now because you probably get my point. It's high time that Personal Training was give the credit it deserves while we in the industry to everything in our power to ensure that we earn the respect that I think we deserve.

It will never happen, because it's so easy to get certified. Anybody can pass a test and receive their cert in the mail

[unauthorized]

ok ive heard a couple people in ths forum talk about these group classes where people pay $10 a pop. maybe its a regional thing, but where i live a paid gym membership gets members free access to any class that gym offers. or they may charge an additional $20 a month for unlimited classes. i think people around here would laugh if they had to pay $10 a class. i know of many people who take 6-7 classes a week. thats $280 bucks a month just for classes wtf!

are these gyms charging membership fees to the gym and $10 for each class? seems like these type of classes could easily get undercut by gyms or instructors willing to offer much better deals for equal quality classes. also what part of the country are u in?

These group classes where the trainer is charging is usually an independent contractor, either renting space or doing it outdoors, like bootcamps

[liegelord]

But, we have to earn that respect and, to do that, we need to have very high standards and an ability to defend ourselves against criticism. Operating under the table like you say brings the whole industry down.

Sorry, I can't let this go. What brings the industry down are the typical globo gym trainers who don't know what they're doing, hard-sell, push supplements, sell steroids, sleep with clients etc., not someone who works "under the table". You've got it backwards. Let's examine your statement above.

A trainer enters into a mutually voluntary agreement with a client to provide services. There is nothing injurious by this non-violent agreement. Now, the same trainer is somehow not doing business by a "high standard" because, apart from his business relationship with his client, he/she doesn't give some of the money he earned to a faceless group of men/women he has no agreement with who've done nothing entitling them to his/her money?

A "high standard" is to deal honestly and non-violently (voluntarily) with everyone. Just because someone chooses to not blindly send money to a group of narcissistic, anti-social, unproductive parasites & predators, doesn't mean they're not doing business by a "high standard".

People pay taxes to avoid 1) being thrown into a cage, 2) having all their possessions stolen and 3) being shot. They do it out of fear, period. Everyone should work "under the table".

Please don't confuse fear with a "high standard".

Also, spare me the "move to China" and "what about the roads" BS. If you're going to disagree with this post, at least show an error in what I wrote.

[Environ]

Sorry, I can't let this go. What brings the industry down are the typical globo gym trainers who don't know what they're doing, hard-sell, push supplements, sell steroids, sleep with clients etc., not someone who works "under the table". You've got it backwards. Let's examine your statement above.

A trainer enters into a mutually voluntary agreement with a client to provide services. There is nothing injurious by this non-violent agreement. Now, the same trainer is somehow not doing business by a "high standard" because, apart from his business relationship with his client, he/she doesn't give some of the money he earned to a faceless group of men/women he has no agreement with who've done nothing entitling them to his/her money?

A "high standard" is to deal honestly and non-violently (voluntarily) with everyone. Just because someone chooses to not blindly send money to a group of narcissistic, anti-social, unproductive parasites & predators, doesn't mean they're not doing business by a "high standard".

People pay taxes to avoid 1) being thrown into a cage, 2) having all their possessions stolen and 3) being shot. They do it out of fear, period. Everyone should work "under the table".

Please don't confuse fear with a "high standard".

Also, spare me the "move to China" and "what about the roads" BS. If you're going to disagree with this post, at least show an error in what I wrote.

How would your country survive if NOBODY paid tax? I would genuinely like to hear your answer to this question. Since you said that everybody should work under the table, you cannot use a different form of taxation or money collection in your answer.

Secondly, by breaking the law, you are giving critics ample fuel to lambaste our industry.

When a trainer enters into a new contract with a person, will he/she say to that person "I have no insurance, so if you get hurt, tough luck". No, they won't, so the contract is null and void. It may also be fraudulent or some other equivalent because that trainer did not disclose some very important information. While the contract may be voluntary (please dispense with the sensationalist phrases like 'non-violent', etc, it's silly), it's still illegal for this reason.

Is THIS how you want the industry to operate and to be known to operate? An industry full of cheats and people who take risks with the health and welfare of people, the very health and welfare that they claim to be improving?

I'm not even saying that I agree with having to pay taxes. What I am saying - and this is the clear point that you missed because you seem to be blinded by anger - is that we, as an industry - need to do EVERYTHING to bring the perception of the industry to a higher level.

That means making it harder to get certifications, making the certifications match the realities of the job, perhaps even having a standardised or national exam for personal trainers, ensuring that the 'globo gym trainers' are removed from the industry (because they can't pass the exam) and, yes, maintaining high standards in business practices.

While I am looking at this question from the point of view of the person on the outside, looking in, you are looking at it from the viewpoint of your pocket. But, those people on the outside, looking in are the very people who will pay your salary.

YOU got it backwards, not me.

And, I have no clue what your second last sentence means. But, I will say that I agree with you on your point about the globo gyms, but what you described is no better than them from an ethical point of view. You are condoning putting the lives of others at risk by not having insurance and convincing them to enter into ILLEGAL, voluntary contracts.

[unauthorized]

Is THIS how you want the industry to operate and to be known to operate? An industry full of cheats and people who take risks with the health and welfare of people, the very health and welfare that they claim to be improving?

This is how it's already being ran and always had been ran this way. EVERY industry, is full of cheats, scams, taking peoples money, and messing with their health & welfare of the people

[Lasharm]

This is how it's already being ran and always had been ran this way. EVERY industry, is full of cheats, scams, taking peoples money, and messing with their health & welfare of the people

And those people bring those industries down as a whole...

[liegelord]

How would your country survive if NOBODY paid tax? I would genuinely like to hear your answer to this question. Since you said that everybody should work under the table, you cannot use a different form of taxation or money collection in your answer.

Secondly, by breaking the law, you are giving critics ample fuel to lambaste our industry.

When a trainer enters into a new contract with a person, will he/she say to that person "I have no insurance, so if you get hurt, tough luck". No, they won't, so the contract is null and void. It may also be fraudulent or some other equivalent because that trainer did not disclose some very important information. While the contract may be voluntary (please dispense with the sensationalist phrases like 'non-violent', etc, it's silly), it's still illegal for this reason.

Is THIS how you want the industry to operate and to be known to operate? An industry full of cheats and people who take risks with the health and welfare of people, the very health and welfare that they claim to be improving?

I'm not even saying that I agree with having to pay taxes. What I am saying - and this is the clear point that you missed because you seem to be blinded by anger - is that we, as an industry - need to do EVERYTHING to bring the perception of the industry to a higher level.

That means making it harder to get certifications, making the certifications match the realities of the job, perhaps even having a standardised or national exam for personal trainers, ensuring that the 'globo gym trainers' are removed from the industry (because they can't pass the exam) and, yes, maintaining high standards in business practices.

While I am looking at this question from the point of view of the person on the outside, looking in, you are looking at it from the viewpoint of your pocket. But, those people on the outside, looking in are the very people who will pay your salary.

YOU got it backwards, not me.

And, I have no clue what your second last sentence means. But, I will say that I agree with you on your point about the globo gyms, but what you described is no better than them from an ethical point of view. You are condoning putting the lives of others at risk by not having insurance and convincing them to enter into ILLEGAL, voluntary contracts.

I think what you meant was how would the "government" survive if no one paid taxes. I personally don't care what those parasites called "government" would do if we all refused to pay them their tribute. I'd like to see every government go out of business and have them compete in the market like normal people. All taxation is theft and governments are criminal cartels.

You completely neglected the part where I mention the high standard is being honest and dealing voluntarily, I never mentioned anything about putting lives at risk or not carrying insurance. You assumed that just as you did when you think I'm blinded by anger. I'm not an angry person, I just pointed out what i saw as an error in your post.

I agree we need to work hard as PT's to change the perception the public has regarding this industry. However, not paying taxes is a high standard and takes an uncommon amount of guts.

And so what if a trainer doesn't get insurance? As long as the client is given full disclosure where's the problem if two people enter into a voluntary agreement?

As far giving critics "ample fuel to lambaste our industry", anyone who would fault a man for not paying taxes (tribute, extortion) is ignorant of the system and people who comprise it.

Bottom line: politicians are criminals and their sacred writ, called the "law", is nothing more than the whims of the insane printed in fancy books. Politicians and their "law" deserve only disdain, not our money or respect.

[ladymystique]

FYI if you don't pay your taxes, how do you expect to get a loan for a car? home? Do you have another job?

Well actually Taxes is not even a real law! But another topic for another website....

I get a good amount of child support and alimony...I already have a loan my car. And I rent! My other Job is a full time mommy of 3 and a marketing director for an author which i get paid under the table and do some trade work.