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  1. #1
    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    Creatine HCl absorbed better than mono?

    I just received my October 2009 Muscle & Fitness in the mail and on page 46 it references that researchers from the University of Manitoba reported at the 2009 ISSN annual meeting that creatine HCl is easier for the body to absorb

    I did a search and found the presentation paper, which was presented by a guy who incidentally enough was the co-inventor of creatine hydrochloride.

    In a nutshell, he presented that:

    - creatine HCl provides a substantial improvement in aqueous solubility over other creatine supplements

    - creatine HCl has improved oral absorption compared to the standard creatine mono formulation; and

    - supplementation with creatine HCl provides a more efficient method for enhancing creatine levels in the body.


    Here's the info:

    Donald W. Miller, Oral Bioavailability of Creatine Supplements: Is There Room for Improvement?


    http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...906_Miller.pdf

    The study description begins on page 30 of the paper and indicates that subjects taking HCL had 47% more creatine in their blood than those who took an equal dose of mono.

    I could not locate a copy of the actual study, but figured that this would be an interesting topic to discuss and I did not see any threads on it when I did a search.

    After reading Alan Aragon's writings for a while, I understand that creatine mono is better than both Kre-alkalyn (KA) and creatine ethyl ester (CEE) since the latter are vulnerable to stomach acid breaking them down into creatinine, which subsequently results in less of the desired supplement getting to the muscle tissue.
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  2. #2
    String Theory nano.ix's Avatar
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    Couldn't find anything besides a link to the MF article or the one you posted. I'll stay subbed for further info though.
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    I have creatine HCI at home (ProMera Health Con-Cret) and it's worked great for strength gains but it tastes like battery acid its so tart!
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  4. #4
    String Theory nano.ix's Avatar
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    in10city posted this about PEG, and I quickly glimpsed over it and saw that C-HCL is it.
    http://recomp.com/wiki/index.php5?ti...lated_Creatine
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  5. #5
    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nano.ix View Post
    in10city posted this about PEG, and I quickly glimpsed over it and saw that C-HCL is it.
    http://recomp.com/wiki/index.php5?ti...lated_Creatine
    The take-home message that I got from that was at the end.

    "In summary, the administration of PEG creatine or creatine monohydrate should result in similar strength increases but up to 75% less PEG creatine is needed to achieve these results."

    I am skeptical to the point that I bet regular old mono will STILL be cheaper than the HCl/PEG
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  6. #6
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    This study didn't show PEG to be superior to MONO at all.

    1. We aready know different types of creatine vary in how quickly they peak in the blood, as creatine citrate vs pyruvate VS mono study has already been done, yet the outcome is no difference in muscle creatine levels(which is what matters).

    2. It's not fair or accurate to say less PEG is needed to bring about the same performance increases as MONO in 30 days, as we already know lower doses 2.5-3g will bring about very similair muscle creatine levels as much higher doses, as the 28 study showed from years ago.

    3.They should have standardized the doses of mono to PEG, instead of 1.25g and 2.5g of PEG compared to 5g of mono. Eitherway, anyone familiar with creatine uptake and muscle saturation would know that there should be NO difference between 2.5 or 5g in 30 days, regardless of form.

    4. And lastly and most importantly, the study showed no difference in performance outcomes.

    5. But the authors conclusion that less PEG is needed to bring about the same results of higher dosed MONO is faulty based off what we know from previous research on dosing, time and muscle saturation.

    Perhaps for people that have GI distress from mono, the PEG is worth trying though, who knows.
    Last edited by ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION; 08-14-2009 at 09:00 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Smile

    Originally Posted by ATHLETIC EDGE NUTRITION View Post
    This study didn't show PEG to be superior to MONO at all.

    1. We aready know different types of creatine vary in how quickly they peak in the blood, as creatine citrate vs pyruvate VS mono study has already been done, yet the outcome is no difference in muscle creatine levels(which is what matters).

    2. It's not fair or accurate to say less PEG is needed to bring about the same performance increases as MONO in 30 days, as we already know lower doses 2.5-3g will bring about very similair muscle creatine levels as much higher doses, as the 28 study showed from years ago.

    3.They should have standardized the doses of mono to PEG, instead of 1.25g and 2.5g of PEG compared to 5g of mono. Eitherway, anyone familiar with creatine uptake and muscle saturation would know that there should be NO difference between 2.5 or 5g in 30 days, regardless of form.

    4. And lastly and most importantly, the study showed no difference in performance outcomes.

    5. But the authors conclusion that less PEG is needed to bring about the same results of higher dosed MONO is faulty based off what we know from previous research on dosing, time and muscle saturation.

    Perhaps for people that have GI distress from mono, the PEG is worth trying though, who knows.
    I agree. To add to this:

    1. The tablets had enteric coating which was not revealed in the study but the commerical product uses (woops ). A little bird confirmed this after the fact.

    2. The reason they are enteric coated is because there is a good chance the ionic bond between creatine and polyethylene glycol (PEG) would ionize rapidly in solution.

    3. A fair assessment would have been using enteric coated creatine monohydrate capsules. The healthy stomach has a normal PH range during digestion of 1-2 and creatine degrade in a statistically significant manner at this PH range.
    Last edited by deserusan; 08-14-2009 at 10:39 AM.
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  8. #8
    Registered User JornT's Avatar
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    I don't understand all those new special delivery creatines. If something absorbs better than mono, big deal. Just take more mono, it's cheap as hell. Unless another novel kind of creatine can lift the roof of the amount that can be stored in muscle, the end result will be same.
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  9. #9
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JornT View Post
    I don't understand all those new special delivery creatines. If something absorbs better than mono, big deal. Just take more mono, it's cheap as hell. Unless another novel kind of creatine can lift the roof of the amount that can be stored in muscle, the end result will be same.
    Basically yes. The only advantages left to pursue with creatine are if you could reach a saturation point faster, limit acidic degradation requiring less and actually use it in an aqueous solution, and/or functionally increase some other parameter other than phosphocreatine storage.
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  10. #10
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by snorkelman View Post
    The take-home message that I got from that was at the end.

    "In summary, the administration of PEG creatine or creatine monohydrate should result in similar strength increases but up to 75% less PEG creatine is needed to achieve these results."

    I am skeptical to the point that I bet regular old mono will STILL be cheaper than the HCl/PEG
    The formulation used in that study was enteric coated PEG/CrHCl [the study was funded by GNC and probably used their Amp 189 product] which is not going to behave the same way as plain CrHCl. Regardless, that was the conclusion the authors reached. However, no group was any better than placebo in rest of the measurements with the exception of the mean anaerobic mean power. But once again, as was done with the clinical data submitted with the patent application, a "common" CrM dose was compared against a lower dose of the special formulation instead of a comparison on a level playing field. They are throwing a lot of darts but nothing is hitting a bulls-eye with showing what this can do in direct comparison.

    This is the second or third study in recent memory that has shown low dose CrM underperforming. And there is another that showed little change in muscle creatine levels with low dose CrM. But since no muscle creatine or urinary measurements were taken in this study or in the meeting presentation data, a key piece(s) of contextual information are missing - since what gets into the blood is all well and good but what makes it into the muscle is important to know too.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  11. #11
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    is there a difference between Creatine Hydrochloride

    &

    Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride
    ?
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  12. #12
    Dieting Down BringnIt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    is there a difference between Creatine Hydrochloride

    &

    Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride
    ?
    Yes.
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  13. #13
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    Since creatine is taken in dosages around 5g, could creatine HCl cause some acid reflux?
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    is there a difference between Creatine Hydrochloride

    &

    Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride
    ?
    all CEE HCI is, is Creatine HCI molecules bonded together with acid and alcohol molecules. supposedly the bonding of the molecules to an acid and alcohol increase absorption in the intestines.
    True?? This answer i do not have
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    Whats the difference between CEEHl and CHl? (EE = Ethyl Ester)



    THERE ARE 2 MAIN DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CEE AND CON-CRET.

    FIRST, CON-CRET HAS A MORE SIMPLE CONJUGATION
    (NO ESTERIFICATION)

    SECOND, THIS MORE EFFICIENT CONJUGATION MAKE CON-CRET EVEN MORE SOLUBLE,
    BIO-AVAILABLE, AND WITH BETTER ABSORPTION PROPERTIES THAN EVEN CEE --

    IN ADDITION, IT IS THE MOST STABLE FORM OF CREATINE ON THE MARKET SO IT DOESN'T CYCLIZE INTO CREATINE UNDER ANY NORMAL USES OR DOSE REGIMENS.

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    are you seriously spamming the supplement science section?





    seriously?
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    What has this world come to. ImOneSadPanda.jpg
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    Originally Posted by _Smitty_ View Post
    are you seriously spamming the supplement science section?

    seriously?
    When you have no science to back up your claims, where else would you post
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  19. #19
    Creatine junky BULLandTERRIER's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    The healthy stomach has a normal PH range during digestion of 1-2 and creatine degrade in a statistically significant manner at this PH range.
    Work presented by Professor Roger Harris way back in 1999 at a meeting in Milan[3] gave some great insights into creatine metabolism but more than that unequivocal scientific PROOF that creatine is highly stable in low pH environments. In figure (1) you can see the effect of creatine monohydrate placed into A low pH environment (pH <2) to stimulate gastric juice, the exact environmental conditions
    experienced by creatine once ingested. This measurement period represents the typically time it would take for a full 5 gram dose to pass from the gut into your plasma (see figure 2). As you can see the actual breakdown and loss of creatine is less than a few % “Hardly the huge loss you have been lead to believe occurs by so called stable creatine manufactures

    3. Harris, R.C. (1999) Effects and safety of dietary and supplementary creatine. International Congress Creatine: From Basic Science to Clinical Application: Milan

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  20. #20
    I'm known by other names IamJonsCranium's Avatar
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    I took Con-Cret for 1 1/2 months. I can definitely say it is effective.

    More so than monohydrate? I just purchased micronized creatine monohydrate. I plan on taking it for about a month. I'll post back here with the results. You will also be able to find a link to my personal log in my sig in a few days.
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