Callling all experts: skinny female needs your input

[thugpug]

Hi all,
I've been doing a lot of reading on different programs to help build lean mass, mainly because what I've been doing doesn't seem to be working. I suspect part of the lack of progress comes from being an ecto, and the other part is because I struggle to eat enough, although I meticulously plan my diet out each day to reach 2000-2300 calories mark, with a ratio of 45/35/20 carbs/protein fat.

Here's what my (ex)trainer has had me doing most recently (she's prescribed a few diffenent workouts since I started working with her.

3 Day Heavy Cross Train/ 2 day Iso's
No addl cardio
60 sec rest
3 sets/ fail at 8 reps for wt bearing movements
All Heavy Days are done circuit style (1 set of each ex, then repeat)

Day 1
Squat
Bench press
Full pike (ball)
Burpees

Day 2
Incline db chest fly
Lateral High Hops with db's
RDL's w/ dbs
Bent over row

Day 3
rest

Day 4
DB Shoulder Press
DB Lateral Raise
DB front lunge
Mountain Climbers

Day 5
Ab Isolations
6 various movements, 3 sets/15 reps

Day 6
rest

Day 7
Arm and Shoulder Isolation 3 sets/ fail at 8 reps
Rear lying lat raise
Standing DB Upright row
DB preacher curl
Conc curl
DB Dbl Bicep Cul
Skull crushers
Tricep overhead extensions
Lying single arm tri extensions
Calf Raises

This is what I've been doing more or less for the past three months. No appreciable change has been had in LBM or fat %. I am happy with the fat % at 13, and understand that it may increase if I actually gain muscle too, and I'm ok with that. But how in the world to I get to that point?

Lighter wt, higher reps? HST? HIT? Full body workouts? Or Splits? 2-3 days per week or 5-6?

There is soooo much info out there, I don't know what to believe. These articles I'm reading are generalized, not specific to a female ectomorph, which is why I've come here. I've asked my trainer these questions but unfortunately, they were misunderstood as me questioning her advice.

I may have left out something you'll need to answer this, if so, just let me know.

Thank you in advance to all of you for your thoughts!

[Wildtim]

For mass and strength you generally want low reps and high weights.

Get off the circuit, get more rest between sets are the first couple of things I spotted right away. Then I noticed this you want mass and only have 6 sets for legs, the largest muscle group in your body, in the entire week, while you have 18 sets a week for arms the smallest muscle group. I think you would be correct to question her advice, I mean seriously 9 sets for triceps and calf raises the day before you do squats and bench press. If lateral high hop is what I think it is it isn't a mass exercise, if your trainer was a guy I'd say this was in there just so he could watch you bounce, and a whole day for abs???. Anyway enough about that routine.....

Personally for a foundation of solid strength there isn't much out there that is going to beat Starting Strength as a workout. But for a beginner looking for a more bodybuilding style of plan there is All Pro's simple Beginners plan. What they have in common is both being 3x a week full body plans based around the biggest compound movements your body can perform. They both can be found linked from the routines sticky at the top of the forum. Either will give you a solid start towards your goals.

[tinman15]

your body already looks nice and muscular for a female. Just curious what you are trying to accomplish. If you are truely trying to pack on mass. Here is what you need for muscle gain, keeping glycogen stores high ( by ingesting fast carbs post workout ) try eating 3 large meals a day instead of 6 small ones and really focus on the time under tension when working out. Muscles need to be exposed to a large amount of stimuli in order to grow. work on 5 - 8 second negatives. But don't be surprised if you have to drastically lower the weight in order to do this.

Given your history you should go on a low rep phase and work on maximal strength for a little while. Less is gonna be more for you. A strong emphasis should be placed on the posterior chain as well.

Day 1:

I personally would prescribe something like this.

A1 Platform Snatch grip deadlifts ( might need straps ) 10x5 ( traditionial deads with small plates are fine if you are unable to do these. )

90 second rest

A2 Bulgarian Split Squats 10x5 ( LONG NEGATIVES )

Day 2:

A1 10x4 Bench Press ( work on getting to 10x6 with that weight )

90 second rest

A2 10x3 Negative chinups. Try and find some way to get some support to help you hop up if you can't pull yourself up. The slower you can let yourself down the better.

Day 3: Cardio. Sprint hard as you can for 40 seconds and then rest rest for 2 minutes. Repeat 6 times. ( take in a lot of carbs after this )

Day 4: 10x3 just negative dips if you can't lift yourself up. Otherwise a decline close grip db bench will work.

Reverse Grip Curls 10x3

Day 5: rest

Repeat 6 times.

I dont know your exact training history or strength... so this program is either gonna be really hard, or you won't feel it much but it'll make you stronger. Tough it out as if you repeat the 5 day cycles it will only last 4 weeks.

Come back at the end of that ( feel free to pm me ), and we'll get into 40-60 second tut sets which will really help you grow. A good trainer will constantly rotate low reps with high reps when hypertrophy is the goal. Try not to rest at the top or bottom of the movements when doing the exercises but really keep tension on the muscle at all times.

Also add some carlson fish oil to your diet. 3 1/2 tsp a day. It's expensive but absolutely worth it! If you are taking a cheap fish oil, you will notice a difference when you switch. The fish oil will help remove the place you are carrying most your fat which is around your belly button. The rest of your body seems to carry very little fat. If you want to take it a step further, 5-10 grams of glycine each meal will help as well. I just looked over your supplements. Depending on how much you can spend the order should of what you should get is
Carlson fish oil
Whey protein ( buy isolate if you can afford it )
Multi vitamin
Maltodextrin.

any questions or reasoning for anything feel free to ask.

Edit to comment on the above poster: starting strength is a horrible program for her and really isn't the best program for anyone as it isn't specialized to anyones needs. Low reps are only best for size gains in that they allow you to use heaiver weight with high rep training... I also wouldn't knock her trainer, she actually seems pretty talented depending on what OP looked like before hand as OP looks pretty good. Many women would love to have that jennifer garnier/jessica biel body that she has. But the trainer catered to what she thought the OP would want and not what she really was wanting which is more size and strength. Her workout is nice but very limiting to that kind of look.

[ptwa9]

For mass and strength you generally want low reps and high weights.

For fast and attention to detail you want spaceship.

[thugpug]

your body already looks nice and muscular for a female. Just curious what you are trying to accomplish. If you are truely trying to pack on mass. Here is what you need for muscle gain, keeping glycogen stores high ( by ingesting fast carbs post workout ) try eating 3 large meals a day instead of 6 small ones and really focus on the time under tension when working out. Muscles need to be exposed to a large amount of stimuli in order to grow. work on 5 - 8 second negatives. But don't be surprised if you have to drastically lower the weight in order to do this.

Given your history you should go on a low rep phase and work on maximal strength for a little while. Less is gonna be more for you. A strong emphasis should be placed on the posterior chain as well.

Day 1:

I personally would prescribe something like this.

A1 Platform Snatch grip deadlifts ( might need straps ) 10x5 ( traditionial deads with small plates are fine if you are unable to do these. )

90 second rest

A2 Bulgarian Split Squats 10x5 ( LONG NEGATIVES )

Day 2:

A1 10x4 Bench Press ( work on getting to 10x6 with that weight )

90 second rest

A2 10x3 Negative chinups. Try and find some way to get some support to help you hop up if you can't pull yourself up. The slower you can let yourself down the better.

Day 3: Cardio. Sprint hard as you can for 40 seconds and then rest rest for 2 minutes. Repeat 6 times. ( take in a lot of carbs after this )

Day 4: 10x3 just negative dips if you can't lift yourself up. Otherwise a decline close grip db bench will work.

Reverse Grip Curls 10x3

Day 5: rest

Repeat 6 times.

I dont know your exact training history or strength... so this program is either gonna be really hard, or you won't feel it much but it'll make you stronger. Tough it out as if you repeat the 5 day cycles it will only last 4 weeks.

Come back at the end of that ( feel free to pm me ), and we'll get into 40-60 second tut sets which will really help you grow. A good trainer will constantly rotate low reps with high reps when hypertrophy is the goal. Try not to rest at the top or bottom of the movements when doing the exercises but really keep tension on the muscle at all times.

Also add some carlson fish oil to your diet. 3 1/2 tsp a day. It's expensive but absolutely worth it! If you are taking a cheap fish oil, you will notice a difference when you switch. The fish oil will help remove the place you are carrying most your fat which is around your belly button. The rest of your body seems to carry very little fat. If you want to take it a step further, 5-10 grams of glycine each meal will help as well. I just looked over your supplements. Depending on how much you can spend the order should of what you should get is
Carlson fish oil
Whey protein ( buy isolate if you can afford it )
Multi vitamin
Maltodextrin.

any questions or reasoning for anything feel free to ask.

Edit to comment on the above poster: starting strength is a horrible program for her and really isn't the best program for anyone as it isn't specialized to anyones needs. Low reps are only best for size gains in that they allow you to use heaiver weight with high rep training... I also wouldn't knock her trainer, she actually seems pretty talented depending on what OP looked like before hand as OP looks pretty good. Many women would love to have that jennifer garnier/jessica biel body that she has. But the trainer catered to what she thought the OP would want and not what she really was wanting which is more size and strength. Her workout is nice but very limiting to that kind of look.

Jennifer Garner/Jessica Biel, eh? That's the nicest thing I've been called all day!

When I started training last August, I used 12 week programs on DVDs and it helped me drop 20 pounds and 10% bf. In April of this year I started using the trainer to help me add muscle because I was getting comments from people about looking too skinny or sick. Not good!

Funny you mention the fat around my belly button, that's the only damn place the 13% BF could possibly be. I keep thinking those ab muscles will show up one day, but there is a very stubborn layer of adipose laying on top.

I continue to workout at home with my SelectTechs, and I currently do not have a barbell/bench set or squat rack although I'm seriously considering turning my guest room into my weight room so I can have these things at home. With barbells alone, I should be able to give your recmd a try, its certainly got my attention. I've been reading about time under tension quite a bit too, so I'm familiar with the idea and that of negatives as well.

Tell me more about 3x day eating... why do you recc this? And forgive me for my ignorance here, but are you suggesting 10SETS with 3 reps, etc or do I have that backward. I thought 8 reps was pretty low and I was lifting pretty heavy (going for failure each set), but it sounds like that is more of a moderate rep scheme.

thank you for the time you've taken to share your thoughts, it's much appreciated!

[thugpug]

For mass and strength you generally want low reps and high weights.

Get off the circuit, get more rest between sets are the first couple of things I spotted right away. Then I noticed this you want mass and only have 6 sets for legs, the largest muscle group in your body, in the entire week, while you have 18 sets a week for arms the smallest muscle group. I think you would be correct to question her advice, I mean seriously 9 sets for triceps and calf raises the day before you do squats and bench press. If lateral high hop is what I think it is it isn't a mass exercise, if your trainer was a guy I'd say this was in there just so he could watch you bounce, and a whole day for abs???. Anyway enough about that routine.....

Personally for a foundation of solid strength there isn't much out there that is going to beat Starting Strength as a workout. But for a beginner looking for a more bodybuilding style of plan there is All Pro's simple Beginners plan. What they have in common is both being 3x a week full body plans based around the biggest compound movements your body can perform. They both can be found linked from the routines sticky at the top of the forum. Either will give you a solid start towards your goals.

THank you! I was just reading up on Starting Strength and full body workouts, as I have previously heard of those being recommended for my type. What are your thoughts on Full body vs splits? Do you think overtraining is playing into this? Do you also think that 8 reps is not low enough?

What would you rec for rest between sets?

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts!

[tinman15]

Jennifer Garner/Jessica Biel, eh? That's the nicest thing I've been called all day!

When I started training last August, I used 12 week programs on DVDs and it helped me drop 20 pounds and 10% bf. In April of this year I started using the trainer to help me add muscle because I was getting comments from people about looking too skinny or sick. Not good!

Funny you mention the fat around my belly button, that's the only damn place the 13% BF could possibly be. I keep thinking those ab muscles will show up one day, but there is a very stubborn layer of adipose laying on top.

I continue to workout at home with my SelectTechs, and I currently do not have a barbell/bench set or squat rack although I'm seriously considering turning my guest room into my weight room so I can have these things at home. With barbells alone, I should be able to give your recmd a try, its certainly got my attention. I've been reading about time under tension quite a bit too, so I'm familiar with the idea and that of negatives as well.

Tell me more about 3x day eating... why do you recc this? And forgive me for my ignorance here, but are you suggesting 10SETS with 3 reps, etc or do I have that backward. I thought 8 reps was pretty low and I was lifting pretty heavy (going for failure each set), but it sounds like that is more of a moderate rep scheme.

thank you for the time you've taken to share your thoughts, it's much appreciated!

If you are truely wanting to gain muscle and truely are an "ecto" You want to create a large influx of aminos ( protein ) in the blood as well as big dips. if you keep a constant supply of aminos in the blood it's more likely to be oxidized and used for other functions than protein synthesis. It can get kinda complicated but I hope that's enough info to make sense. If you want to focus on the belly button area I wouldn't recommend this approach obviously.. Think of it like this Frequent meals prevents catabolism, 3 meals is better for anabolism. So if you truely are wanting to add a little mass this is the way to go. If are wanting to get rid of the belly button area, do that first and again I can't stress enough how big of a difference carlson fish oil will make compared to other fish oils. Don't worry about it being liquid though the flavors are quite tastey

yes 10 sets of 3 is correct. The goal is to get you used to heavy weights and to also help let your body rest from the high volume you were doing. The high amount of sets will do this, but the low reps will help you recover from the high volume you were performing. For women, generally 6-5 reps is about as low as you want to go majority of the time, but since you look fairly trained and strong and since it looked like you were doing a lot of really high reps and never been exposed to heavy weight I took it a little further and I think 3 would be best. All rep ranges should be used eventually regardless of gender or goal, but how often is determined by goal only. Since you've never been exposed to this it should be a nice change of pace and have a great training effect. Just by reps alone you can get really creative and hit different strength curves...

Also with the dips I hope you know I was talking about parallel bar dips. As a women, being able to do these is a huge feat, and negatives is a good way to get used to them. It will also make you very strong. I can go in and adjust the routine now that I know of your equipment if you like. You could just start with a bar and weights and skip the rack altogether for awhile... and still make great progress by focusing on dead lifts until you can deadlift x2 your body weight which would be 220lbs for you i believe? I like trainees to hit that goal before they start squatting anyways.

Last while you are thin I wouldn't listen to people telling you that you are too skinny. They see you in clothes... you look very healthy and fit. While personally I do like more curvy girls, every single one I have dated wanted your body... If you are really worried about being too skiny/unhealthy, your poop is actually your best indicator as is gas.

If you poop every morning and it doesn't stink too bad, as well as rarely farting... you are healthy. Other indicators is if you have any problems with energy, concentrating, dealing with stress, temper ect. All of that can easily be fixed though.

I just looked at pics of jessica biel and your waist from the sides anyways actually look smaller. This is probably due to the intense running play she follows... Sprinting tends to build the obliques up.

Any tips you do follow, my only request is to fill me in of what you thought of them after trying it out.

[ptwa9]

If you want to focus on the belly button

Wut?

Think of it like this Frequent meals prevents catabolism, 3 meals is better for anabolism.

If your body can only utilize say 40g protein per 2-3 hours, then why would you eat only 3 meals if you want say 150g protein per day? More meals means more protein digested.

yes 10 sets of 3 is correct. The goal is to get you used to heavy weights

Why are you recommending 10x3 to someone who has never even ran a 3x5/5x5 program? And I thought Rippetoe was irresponsible.

Also with the dips I hope you know I was talking about parallel bar dips. As a women, being able to do these is a huge feat

Huh?

You could just start with a bar and weights and skip the rack altogether for awhile

If you're going to transform a room into a weight room, do it right and get a power rack from the start. Otherwise, you'll be doing modified and maybe ineffective programs and get discouraged with results.

If you poop every morning and it doesn't stink too bad, as well as rarely farting... you are healthy.

Chief?


Edit: spaceplane

[thugpug]

Tinman: I think I follow. So if you don't mind, would you share your thoughts on why you don't agree with WildTim about SS and full body workouts?

Also, if I'm hearing you correclty, you feel that 3/8 is high volume, even tho I was lifting the heaviest weight possible at that rep range?

Carlson fish oil huh? Liquid? Ew. Why do you feel this is superior to other fish oils?

I will def keep you posted on how your suggest wo goes if I decide to try it. I'm hoping some other posters will weigh in on this topic too. Thanks!

[followme]

Let me just second the suggestion for Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. I suggest the book, too.

Using that program, I was able to drastically increase all of my lifts and began to see some muscle enlargement. I'm doing another program now that has more variety and a few isolation exercises, but Starting Strength was great.

BTW, from your pic in your profile you don't seem "skinny" to me. My image of skinny may be impacted by being in Japan for three years, but you seem to have some skin on your bones. I would call you "thin," but definitely not "skinny."

[Wildtim]

THank you! I was just reading up on Starting Strength and full body workouts, as I have previously heard of those being recommended for my type. What are your thoughts on Full body vs splits? Do you think overtraining is playing into this? Do you also think that 8 reps is not low enough?

What would you rec for rest between sets?
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts!

There are some interesting possibilities in this thread for good discussion but I will answer your specific questions first

IMO someone who is just starting out to build strength is best off on a full body program. This is because their body is not really able to stress itself enough to really max out its recovery ability. As soon as your muscles are recovered sufficiently to push maximum loads again you might as well work them, there is no reason to wait longer and for a beginner every couple of days allows this time. As you advance it might not be enough because you will get better at working nearer your bodies true capacity, but right now you really haven't tapped that potential. In your situation a split would be wasting days your could be using to hit body parts multiple times.

Overtraining really isn't playing a part yet. My main criticism of your routine is that it doesn't appear set-up to grow either bigger or stronger muscles. It is set-up mostly as a cardio routine, I assume on the outdated principal that cardio is what you do to burn fat.

Eight reps? 8 reps is on the lower end of what is generally considered the hypertrophy range. There is the theory that 1-6 reps is for strength, 6-12 for hypertrophy and 15+ for endurance, this is long held and seems to hold pretty much true, at least most programs still fall in these ranges. However I'm not sure it is really important because at some point, if you want to have a really nice strong, healthy, good looking body you will be working through all those ranges at different times. From what you have described of your history you have hit the top end for a while and it isn't working any more. You also have probably never touched the bottom end at all, most women and quite a few guys haven't. So laying that foundation of solid strength by working in the lowest range would be where I would go form here, this also seems to mesh best with your goal adding hard muscle, so 5 reps rather than 8. My plan would be (and is for myself) to build strength, use strength to maximize hypertrophy, then cut and shape.

Rest time between sets is really a factor of your goal. On the circuit you have been doing rest times are relatively short and keeping the heart rate up is a part of the program. If you move to a strength routine the goal is more to move as much weight as possible in a very few reps, heart rate doesn't enter into it. This requires a longer rest period to allow your body to be ready for its next maximal effort we want your muscles to really scream for mercy during each working set but not to enter the set ready to throw in the towel. Rest time in this type of program is really individualized, I for instance take only about 2 minutes to recover between sets of overhead pressing, but when deadlifting I might need longer than that before I quit panting and am able to catch my breath let alone feel ready to approach the bar again. Strength routines are pretty much a go when you are able but don't wait so long that you start to cool off sort of thing.

Now to look at some of the other thoughts in this thread.

your body already looks nice and muscular for a female. Just curious what you are trying to accomplish. If you are truely trying to pack on mass. Here is what you need for muscle gain, keeping glycogen stores high ( by ingesting fast carbs post workout ) try eating 3 large meals a day instead of 6 small ones and really focus on the time under tension when working out. Muscles need to be exposed to a large amount of stimuli in order to grow. work on 5 - 8 second negatives. But don't be surprised if you have to drastically lower the weight in order to do this.

Given your history you should go on a low rep phase and work on maximal strength for a little while. Less is gonna be more for you. A strong emphasis should be placed on the posterior chain as well.

Day 1:

I personally would prescribe something like this.

A1 Platform Snatch grip deadlifts ( might need straps ) 10x5 ( traditionial deads with small plates are fine if you are unable to do these. )

90 second rest

A2 Bulgarian Split Squats 10x5 ( LONG NEGATIVES )

Day 2:

A1 10x4 Bench Press ( work on getting to 10x6 with that weight )

90 second rest

A2 10x3 Negative chinups. Try and find some way to get some support to help you hop up if you can't pull yourself up. The slower you can let yourself down the better.

Day 3: Cardio. Sprint hard as you can for 40 seconds and then rest rest for 2 minutes. Repeat 6 times. ( take in a lot of carbs after this )

Day 4: 10x3 just negative dips if you can't lift yourself up. Otherwise a decline close grip db bench will work.

Reverse Grip Curls 10x3

Day 5: rest

Repeat 6 times.

I dont know your exact training history or strength... so this program is either gonna be really hard, or you won't feel it much but it'll make you stronger. Tough it out as if you repeat the 5 day cycles it will only last 4 weeks.

Come back at the end of that ( feel free to pm me ), and we'll get into 40-60 second tut sets which will really help you grow. A good trainer will constantly rotate low reps with high reps when hypertrophy is the goal. Try not to rest at the top or bottom of the movements when doing the exercises but really keep tension on the muscle at all times.

Also add some carlson fish oil to your diet. 3 1/2 tsp a day. It's expensive but absolutely worth it! If you are taking a cheap fish oil, you will notice a difference when you switch. The fish oil will help remove the place you are carrying most your fat which is around your belly button. The rest of your body seems to carry very little fat. If you want to take it a step further, 5-10 grams of glycine each meal will help as well. I just looked over your supplements. Depending on how much you can spend the order should of what you should get is
Carlson fish oil
Whey protein ( buy isolate if you can afford it )
Multi vitamin
Maltodextrin.

any questions or reasoning for anything feel free to ask.

Edit to comment on the above poster: starting strength is a horrible program for her and really isn't the best program for anyone as it isn't specialized to anyones needs. Low reps are only best for size gains in that they allow you to use heaiver weight with high rep training... I also wouldn't knock her trainer, she actually seems pretty talented depending on what OP looked like before hand as OP looks pretty good. Many women would love to have that jennifer garnier/jessica biel body that she has. But the trainer catered to what she thought the OP would want and not what she really was wanting which is more size and strength. Her workout is nice but very limiting to that kind of look.

Well, we both agree on the low rep phase and on working toward maximal strength.

We just don't agree on the best way to get there. I do see how this program could work I just think you are underestimating the recovery ability of the OP at her training stage. However, the one flaw I see is that doing the extremely long negatives especially in the 3 rep range is very technically demanding, I personally wouldn't do this type of program without a well educated spotter or trainer on hand to make sure I held for throughout every single rep. To me a simpler scheme is much safer and more sensible.

I'll knock any trainer that gets testy when questioned instead of taking the time to educate. Questions from a trainee mean they are actually invested in their own progress and looking for a better understanding of their own body. Discussions also give the skilled trainer a chance to make sure they are meeting the trainees goals in the best way possible and that there isn't any misunderstanding about the way things are going.

You are right in that SS is a very unspecialized routine. Its goal is general strength, nothing more, however I've found that having a greater strength base to draw on when going to a Hypertrophy type program makes that program more effective for much longer. Someone without the strength level this program brings is really at a disadvantage because they lack the raw ability to stress their muscles even at higher rep ranges.

[tinman15]

Tinman: I think I follow. So if you don't mind, would you share your thoughts on why you don't agree with WildTim about SS and full body workouts?

Also, if I'm hearing you correclty, you feel that 3/8 is high volume, even tho I was lifting the heaviest weight possible at that rep range?

Carlson fish oil huh? Liquid? Ew. Why do you feel this is superior to other fish oils?

I will def keep you posted on how your suggest wo goes if I decide to try it. I'm hoping some other posters will weigh in on this topic too. Thanks!

ok to address SS. This is why I hate the program and think it's total crap especially for beginners. I'll probably receive a lot of flak here but here it goes.

One it puts a large emphasis on pressing and little on pulling. The posterior chain is already the weak spot in a large amount of trainees. This is produced by the large bouts of sitting we do our whole life, whether it be in school, watching tv, at the computer, driving a car ect. All these things is why we see a majority of the population with kyphosis and or lordosis. Fixing weak and inhibited muscles should be the basis of any program. Placing an emphasis on pressing strengthens the muscles that can exaggerate these postural flaws even more and sets a trainee up for a great risk of injury. Emphasizing pulling and the posterior chain sets a trainee up for long term health, at less risk for injury and fixes postural problems majority of the population has.

Two. Look at how unbalanced the program is, you press vertically and horizontally for the upper body and press with the legs. And the only pull movement we have is the deadlift and a technical variation there of.

Third. recommending power cleans which is a very technical lift to a beginner? One should master high pulls and front squating before even attempting to power clean.


Next question. 3x8 is not high volume. Going back and looking I just noticed the large amount of exercises for the arms and abs, and now see that your lower body and upper body didn't receive as high of a volume as I thought. Regardless though, a low rep scheme is going to benefit you. I recommend 3 reps because one you have never been exposed to it, and two the fewer reps you have the more you can concentrate on perfect form. With 5 reps it gets more difficult. So with 3 you can build up your comfort with much heavier weight than you are used to and then come back to 5 reps later. You could also take into account its time to starting training for neural efficiency but I'll spare you of that, the reasons I listed are enough to make a choice off of.

Next question: Most trainers with experience with carlson will recommend it and label it as the best. I dismissed it for awhile as I thought it was just some over priced oil that guys were just trying to market to me. I then learned about how plastics like to leak into fats ( most cheap fish oils use plastic containers ) and I learned that most fish oils are rancid which can be confirmed by the smell and by the fish burps unless you buy enteric coated. Carlson uses a glass storage device, doesn't give fish burps, smells and tastes pleasant. And i've noticed a huge diffrence when using it compared to many other brands. The only real proof I can give you is what other top level trainers will recommend and personal experience.

What others said I won't comment on, forum debates are stupid. I will point out that the above posters logic is flawed. The more reps performed the more technical the lift becomes. As you have to concentrate long on keeping form. But yet he likes the idea of giving a very technical lift like power cleans to a beginner? But feel free to ask more questions. And I will give my take.

[thugpug]

This is all great information, and exactly what I was looking for, minus the arguing. I'm all about open discussion and debating, as long as it is done in adult manner. Just look the boards and the articles on this site, its all contradictory, which just goes to show that multple methods work for different people. And really, I just wanted to explore how these different methods might apply to my body type, training history, etc., and forums are a great place to do this.

Speaking of training history, I've been lifting consistantly for a year now, and then of course some back in high school. I keep seeing references to being a beginner, and I'm not offended by that because in relation to many of you, I am. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not totally green on the sport, in case that helps you devise your opinion for a plan.
**Wild Tim and Tinman***, does this change your opinion of what my training protocol should be? Curious!

Over the last two months or so, my ability to lift heavier weighs increases with each workout. If I did 3 sets of 8 Dumbbell Bench presses with 20 pounds in each hand last week, then generally I'll be able 22.5 or 25 each next time, for example.

My recovery rate seems to be best when I take a day off between lifting days. I'm currently lifting Mon, Tues, Thurs Fri, Sun as noted in my routine above. I've often wondered if reducing frequency to increase recovery time would be helpful.

I also forgot to mention, in case you haven't already guessed, that my metabolism burns very, very hot. Always has, but even more so when training. I journal my intake every day and would be happy to share it with you all if you think that might be helpful too!

Back with more questions later, but for now I'm hearing low reps, longer tension times, and enough recovery time, right?

[Wildtim]

Your right we could argue this all day.

I'll just counter your arguments with:

First any exercise done with proper form helps postural flaws, in fact just learning to retract the shoulder blades to perform a proper bench press would help most desk jockeys. But the squat especially low bar position is a huge builder of correct posture an posterior chain strength. Frankly it is, and should be, the key lift in and solid well built beginners routine.

You say it has to much pressing vs pulls yet you recommended a routine with exactly the same proportions ie. 2 pulls out of 5 lifts then you add a forearm dominant arm isolation.

Finally you are right the power clean is a very technical lift for a beginner, and one learning alone shoulden't attempt it. I do tend to forget that this is in there though, because almost every trainee without a coach substitutes it out for any of the several exercises documented as successful in this program, such as rows or chins.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...inner_Programs

Personally I find good success with the practical programing novice program. However the Starting Strength book is to me required reading just for its easy to understand and complete lifting instruction in the most powerful basic lifts.

[CookAndrewB]

To put in my two cents worth to the guys who are helping...

Tin and Wild. Good info, but you guys are opening up the firehose of knowledge here when I think a glass of knowledge is better prescribed.

Cut the theoreticals and get to brass tacks in a manner that anyone can understand. I think that will better serve the OP

You can make this difficult or easy, the end result won't vary much if all I've ever seen in 17 years is an indicator.

[Wildtim]

This is all great information, and exactly what I was looking for, minus the arguing. I'm all about open discussion and debating, as long as it is done in adult manner. Just look the boards and the articles on this site, its all contradictory, which just goes to show that multple methods work for different people. And really, I just wanted to explore how these different methods might apply to my body type, training history, etc., and forums are a great place to do this.

Arguing plans is fun they each have their strong and weak points and it is though discussion of these that I learn and grow so for me it is all in fun, though I do tend to recommend the most basic plans to others.

Speaking of training history, I've been lifting consistantly for a year now, and then of course some back in high school. I keep seeing references to being a beginner, and I'm not offended by that because in relation to many of you, I am. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not totally green on the sport, in case that helps you devise your opinion for a plan.
**Wild Tim and Tinman***, does this change your opinion of what my training protocol should be? Curious!

Not really because its pretty clear that you have never really trained for strength. This is an untapped well for you. Its an area in which you are still untrained so still a beginner no matter how well you know your way around the weight room.

Over the last two months or so, my ability to lift heavier weighs increases with each workout. If I did 3 sets of 8 Dumbbell Bench presses with 20 pounds in each hand last week, then generally I'll be able 22.5 or 25 each next time, for example.

My recovery rate seems to be best when I take a day off between lifting days. I'm currently lifting Mon, Tues, Thurs Fri, Sun as noted in my routine above. I've often wondered if reducing frequency to increase recovery time would be helpful.

Either of the recommended programs is much less overall volume than you have been at and would probably give you enhanced recovery so you aren't dragging when you go back to the gym

I also forgot to mention, in case you haven't already guessed, that my metabolism burns very, very hot. Always has, but even more so when training. I journal my intake every day and would be happy to share it with you all if you think that might be helpful too!

Back with more questions later, but for now I'm hearing low reps, longer tension times, and enough recovery time, right?

My thoughts on diet are pretty basic, I'm no guru there. When looking for mass you are going to have to eat and if you aren't gaining eat some more. For someone who has just dieted and worked themselves lean this is probably the hardest part of gaining mass and strength, That constant need to eat and the fear that they will get to fat.


All I can say is good luck and I hope you have what you need here to reach your goal

[tinman15]

Your right we could argue this all day.

I'll just counter your arguments with:

First any exercise done with proper form helps postural flaws, in fact just learning to retract the shoulder blades to perform a proper bench press would help most desk jockeys. But the squat especially low bar position is a huge builder of correct posture an posterior chain strength. Frankly it is, and should be, the key lift in and solid well built beginners routine.

You say it has to much pressing vs pulls yet you recommended a routine with exactly the same proportions ie. 2 pulls out of 5 lifts then you add a forearm dominant arm isolation.

Finally you are right the power clean is a very technical lift for a beginner, and one learning alone shoulden't attempt it. I do tend to forget that this is in there though, because almost every trainee without a coach substitutes it out for any of the several exercises documented as successful in this program, such as rows or chins.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...inner_Programs

Personally I find good success with the practical programing novice program. However the Starting Strength book is to me required reading just for its easy to understand and complete lifting instruction in the most powerful basic lifts.

To first answer the OP, I took into account you were pretty seasoned. Having never trained for strength but still being as athletic as you look, you have a lot of potential.

I recommended 3 pulls and 3 presses. Also a large emphasis on the forearms and grip strength to help with deadlift progression. Most women can progress very quickly with the deadlift as long as their grip is up to par.

The squat helps fix posture to an extent, but most trainees can't even get into proper position.

[thugpug]

WildTim, I thank you for sharing your knowledge! It's invaluable to me to help make a decsion on how to progress!

[thugpug]

To put in my two cents worth to the guys who are helping...

Tin and Wild. Good info, but you guys are opening up the firehose of knowledge here when I think a glass of knowledge is better prescribed.

Cut the theoreticals and get to brass tacks in a manner that anyone can understand. I think that will better serve the OP

You can make this difficult or easy, the end result won't vary much if all I've ever seen in 17 years is an indicator.

So MrCook, if you were serving me a glass, what would be in it? I'm interested in your perspective...

[thugpug]

To first answer the OP, I took into account you were pretty seasoned. Having never trained for strength but still being as athletic as you look, you have a lot of potential.

I recommended 3 pulls and 3 presses. Also a large emphasis on the forearms and grip strength to help with deadlift progression. Most women can progress very quickly with the deadlift as long as their grip is up to par.

The squat helps fix posture to an extent, but most trainees can't even get into proper position.

Tinman, you mentioned earlier that you could adjust the routine using the equipment I have. i'd love to see what that looks like if you have the time.

Interestingly enough, my grip seems to be a major limiting factor when doing lunges, squats, and deadlifts with db's. I know I can do more weight, but my hands start to kill me! Perhaps that is a sign that its time to move to a barbell, so the weight is distributed over more area?

Posture is another interesting topic. I have scoliosis, but training has significantly improved its symptoms. It has, unfortunately, helped to contributed to some muscle imbalances, esp in the low back and abs.

[CookAndrewB]

So MrCook, if you were serving me a glass, what would be in it? I'm interested in your perspective...

Well, let me first start by saying I admire your approach to all of this.

For most people I would say that the Pareto Principle applies (80% of your gains are from 20% of the things you do). That is to say, 20% of the stuff you do REALLY matters, while the rest... meh...

So from my point of view, what you really need to get a grasp on is what constitutes your 20%. What are those things that really make an impact? From that point I would say we move into the second part of my own philosophy. Do MORE of what matters. You know squatting is a 20% type exercise, it matters. Assuming that your ability to recover is limited (which it is) and that your time is limited (which it is), you really shouldn't have time for all that "80% that gets you 20%" business.

As for reps and sets. I have a hard time getting too worked up about this. Here is what I think is important to take away from the rep/set issue:

1. You need to progress. Over the course of time you need to add weight to the bar. I prefer a very slow and methodical approach (small increments week to week), as opposed to the "try to add as much as you can" bit.
2. You have to be able to recover one workout to the next.
3. You have to ENJOY what you are doing (if you don't like it, you won't stick to it. If you don't stick to it... well, it isn't going to help you much, is it? Not everybody likes low reps or high reps).

Anything outside of those three is going to fall into the 80% getting you 20% category.

Whatever exercises you do, learn to do them correctly, even if that means starting slow and light. The long term benefits outweigh whatever backslide may happen because you have to go back to square one.

That about a glass-full yet?

[CookAndrewB]

Interestingly enough, my grip seems to be a major limiting factor when doing lunges, squats, and deadlifts with db's. I know I can do more weight, but my hands start to kill me! Perhaps that is a sign that its time to move to a barbell, so the weight is distributed over more area?

Ever have the chance to use a kettle bell?

I would be surprised if your grip issues would improve with BB use over DB's.

Posture is another interesting topic. I have scoliosis, but training has significantly improved its symptoms. It has, unfortunately, helped to contributed to some muscle imbalances, esp in the low back and abs.

Maybe a silly question, but have you consulted a doctor?

[tinman15]

Tinman, you mentioned earlier that you could adjust the routine using the equipment I have. i'd love to see what that looks like if you have the time.

Interestingly enough, my grip seems to be a major limiting factor when doing lunges, squats, and deadlifts with db's. I know I can do more weight, but my hands start to kill me! Perhaps that is a sign that its time to move to a barbell, so the weight is distributed over more area?

Posture is another interesting topic. I have scoliosis, but training has significantly improved its symptoms. It has, unfortunately, helped to contributed to some muscle imbalances, esp in the low back and abs.

Dumbbell deads

I would really invest in a dip/chinup station as this will really help you strengthen your grip.

But you can replace the chin ups with HEAVY HEAVY 1 arm rows. Just be sure to pull through the back and not the elbow.

and the dips with feet elevated negative puhsups.

Substitute the bench with a single arm military press. Keep the elbow in front of the torso and the elbow close to the ear, not the ear close to the elbow. Slow negatives.

With scoliosis you are going to want a very qualified chiropractor one who is well rounded like with a lifting background and skilled in A.R.T. but depending on how severe it is. At a bare minimum get some work in with a foam roller. In my opinion those with scoliosis should stay away from squats and stick to dead lifts completely. This will prevent putting a large mount of stress on the vertebra directly, but strengthen the back muscles to lighten the load off your condition. Atleast if you are trying to keep your joints healthy over the long term. Stay away from the ab work, it's not needed. Only ab work I like to give people is hanging pikes and the ab roller... taking out squats and ab work is really against the grain for a lot of people. And can be hard for those who love doing them. But given your condition it could be helpful. .

A bar may help. But grip strength is a long discussion... Something like fatgripz.com will help. There are many things you can do for grip though.

[CookAndrewB]

Substitute the bench with a single arm military press. Keep the elbow in front of the torso and the elbow close to the ear, not the ear close to the elbow. Slow negatives.

Ok... I'll bite. What is your reasoning here, and why the "slow negative" bit? I've seen you say that a couple times.

With scoliosis you are going to want a very qualified chiropractor one who is well rounded like with a lifting background and skilled in A.R.T. but depending on how severe it is. At a bare minimum get some work in with a foam roller. In my opinion those with scoliosis should stay away from squats and stick to dead lifts completely. This will prevent putting a large mount of stress on the vertebra directly, but strengthen the back muscles to lighten the load off your condition. Atleast if you are trying to keep your joints healthy over the long term. Stay away from the ab work, it's not needed. Only ab work I like to give people is hanging pikes and the ab roller... taking out squats and ab work is really against the grain for a lot of people. And can be hard for those who love doing them. But given your condition it could be helpful.

Again, what is your basis for thinking that DL's will put less stress on the spine? Just from my own experience, it is easier to train someone to keep a flat back on a squat than it is on a DL. Most of this has to do with being able to shorten the ROM on a Squat (if hip flexibility won't allow a deep squat you can raise it up and work on getting your mobility. In a DL, particularly the recommended snatch grip or small plate style (deeper pull) that you gave, poor hip/ankle mobility is going to almost certainly create a rounded back.

Teaching a "proud chest" position on a squat is far easier to do than on a DL as well. I have to strongly disagree with your idea that DL's should be used exclusively.

A bar may help. But grip strength is a long discussion... Something like fatgripz.com will help. There are many things you can do for grip though.

Training grip strength this way, early on in a trainee's career, is jumping the gun. Let the grip be a limiting factor for now. That self limiting will help to keep things progressing at a natural pace.

[Wildtim]

Interestingly enough, my grip seems to be a major limiting factor when doing lunges, squats, and deadlifts with db's. I know I can do more weight, but my hands start to kill me! Perhaps that is a sign that its time to move to a barbell, so the weight is distributed over more area?

I'm with Cook here grip comes at its own pace for the most part, if you are on a program that gets you doing what you can close to the failure point then your grip will grow even as your muscles do, however something like chalk or liquid chalk which really just helps keep your hands dry so they can do their job really helps a lot without adding any artificial enhancement to take away from your grip growth.

Posture is another interesting topic. I have scoliosis, but training has significantly improved its symptoms. It has, unfortunately, helped to contributed to some muscle imbalances, esp in the low back and abs.

I also have scoliosis, mine is mild enough never to interfere though. I'm not sure what you mean by imbalances? Do you mean you have through a lifetime of scoliosis built unevenly through compensating for your scoliosis? Or do you mean that when working out you are introducing imbalances?

As far as deads vs. squats for a person with a slightly curved spine I'm not sure it makes any difference. I have heard though that some types of back problems can prevent the squat from being an effective exercise, for those people the best alternatives are the DB squat and the Trap bar Deadlift.

[tinman15]

It's been establish that when seeking specific goals measuring TUT, while a pain in the ass, is the best means of measurement to achieving those goals. If you are familiar with William Kraemer who is the most respected exercise scientist in the world, you'll become familiar with this concept in his books and studies.

The deadlift, when done correctly programs the body to lift in the most efficient manner. Which transfers extraordinarily to all other lifts, and leads to a safer every day environment for the back. The squat does not do this, atleast not to a great because it is a pressing exercise. You talk about hip flexibility, but rarely does a trainee's hips dip and lose lower back posture because of flexibility but it's usually because they can't keep tension in the hamstrings when going that low. A great way to teach a trainee to activate the hamstrings and keep them activated is again the deadlift.

You can disagree, but the notion that the squat should be the first compound leg exercise taught is based off it's effectiveness.

Also while you agree the grip is a limiting factor... then why should it not be addressed.. you are only as strong as your weakest link... If her grip is stronger and she can use more weight... what isn't natural about that.

[CookAndrewB]

As far as deads vs. squats for a person with a slightly curved spine I'm not sure it makes any difference. I have heard though that some types of back problems can prevent the squat from being an effective exercise, for those people the best alternatives are the DB squat and the Trap bar Deadlift.

I was saying that about ANY trainee. I just think it is easier to preserve that rigid back position in the squat for a beginner.

The OP has been squatting (I'm guessing for the entire year) so I'm not sure that I would be too concerned about either exercise selection BECAUSE of the scoliosis, but rather as someone that observed much, I believe it is easier to start at the top up and work your way into proper depth than it is to start at the bottom and just expect good joint mobility out of a deadlift.

(OP ignore, this is just me talking to Tim for a sec)You could always try rack pulls to start at a height that joint mobility allows for, I suppose, but that is really moving in the opposite direction from Tinman's suggestion as he seems to be looking for a deeper pull.

For a DB squat, I would prefer something like a goblet squat over holding trying to hold DB's at shoulder level.



or maybe a 1 arm DB OH squat

[Wildtim]

I was saying that about ANY trainee. I just think it is easier to preserve that rigid back position in the squat for a beginner.

The OP has been squatting (I'm guessing for the entire year) so I'm not sure that I would be too concerned about either exercise selection BECAUSE of the scoliosis, but rather as someone that observed much, I believe it is easier to start at the top up and work your way into proper depth than it is to start at the bottom and just expect good joint mobility out of a deadlift.

Sorry for the confusion but by curved spine I meant left to right (from the scoliosis) not fore to aft from extension in exercise.

I agree the squat is much easier to tech the proper posture with, and learning it here carries over into all your other lifting.

I was just commenting on hearing that the trap bar is sometimes a squat alternative for people with troubled backs.


You know it never occurred to me that someone might clean the dumbbells to the shoulders to squat. I assumed it was either a goblet squat or like the DB dead where they were hanging from the hands.

[CookAndrewB]

It's been establish that when seeking specific goals measuring TUT, while a pain in the ass, is the best means of measurement to achieving those goals. If you are familiar with William Kraemer who is the most respected exercise scientist in the world, you'll become familiar with this concept in his books and studies.

The deadlift, when done correctly programs the body to lift in the most efficient manner. Which transfers extraordinarily to all other lifts, and leads to a safer every day environment for the back. The squat does not do this, atleast not to a great because it is a pressing exercise. You talk about hip flexibility, but rarely does a trainee's hips dip and lose lower back posture because of flexibility but it's usually because they can't keep tension in the hamstrings when going that low. A great way to teach a trainee to activate the hamstrings and keep them activated is again the deadlift.

You can disagree, but the notion that the squat should be the first compound leg exercise taught is based off it's effectiveness.

Also while you agree the grip is a limiting factor... then why should it not be addressed.. you are only as strong as your weakest link... If her grip is stronger and she can use more weight... what isn't natural about that.

You have much to learn.

[tinman15]

possibly but I have gotten most of this information from charles poliquin picp level 2. He's one of the most respected trainers in the industry. I trust what he has taught me so far and it makes perfect sense to me.