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  1. #1
    Moderator ZenBowman's Avatar
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    The ideal Muslim state

    There is a tendency of R/P Muslims to bash Islamic countries claiming they are not truly Islamic. In a lot of cases, these Muslims have never been to the countries they bash and are going by hearsay. In other cases, they are speaking from direct experience.

    I grew up in a Muslim country, and it was an extremely pleasant childhood. Even though many people have accused me of being anti-Muslim, I assure you this is not the case. Obviously in R/P, things get heated, people get angry and **** gets thrown about. This happens on both sides. However, I do not believe that Sharia law inevitably leads to destruction, because I have lived as a non-Muslim in a Muslim country and was treated just fine. What I am against is the following - people migrating over to a country and then trying to change the local culture in an aggressive manner. In fact, in the UAE (which is my birthplace), this is EXACTLY what the local Emiratis are against - they are against Westerners coming over to the UAE and Westernizing the place. Similarly, I see nothing wrong with wanting a non-Islamized America.

    I would prefer if Dubai went back to its Islamic roots and I could hear the azan from wherever I lived. I would prefer if the Western materialism in Dubai disappeared and we went back to the simple, Islam inspired lifestyle of 20 years ago. Family bonds were strong and morality in business and government was the norm.

    People need choices. Those with Muslim inclinations should be able to live in a Muslim country, free from Western ideas being imposed on them. And those with secular inclinations should be able to live in such an environment, without the imposition of religious law.

    Therefore, I believe that a Muslim country, based on Sharia, can work fine. This thread solicits input from the R/P e-Caliphate and the other folk on visualizing what a real Islamic state would look like. Since every Muslim nation is bashed by being called un-Islamic, what, in your opinion is a true Muslim state?

    And an answer that is vague like: "It should be ruled by the Quran and Sunnah" is insufficient. This kind of vague notion is what has lead to the un-Islamic banana republics of today. There is a lot that goes into government, and specifics have to be spelled out.

    Therefore, try to visualize and write about the ideal Islamic state, answering at least the following questions:
    - What would the branches of government be? For example, the USA has three branches of government - legislative, executive and judicial. How would an Islamic state be organized?
    - Would people have a say in government? If so, how?
    - The Quran and Sunnah outline many laws, but there are tons more laws dealing with modern issues that will have to be drafted. How would legislation occur?
    - What rights would non-Muslims hold?
    - Would women be allowed to work and drive? (Consider these carefully, obviously men and women can't work together, this violates the free-mixing laws)
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

    - CS Lewis
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  2. #2
    Banned ghengisconor's Avatar
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    disappointed it didn't say 'no theocracy'
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    Moderator ZenBowman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ghengisconor View Post
    disappointed it didn't say 'no theocracy'
    The assumption is that it will be run by Sharia so your statement makes no sense. Whether that Sharia will also apply to non-Muslims is open for debate. For example, in Dubai, Muslims were forbidden from buying pork, but Britishers were allowed to buy it. Same with alcohol. Certainly, there were Muslims who broke the rules (there was no ID checking or anything of the sort, basically if you looked Muslim [beard, headcap, or national dress - kandoora, etc] you were not allowed to purchase), but by and large the system worked.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

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    Protein Hacker mehdi84's Avatar
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    What I don't understand. So please fill me in is. How do you expect a person like me to be convinced that you do not have this anti-Muslim agenda, when over the past 2 weeks you have been creating an endless number of threads that fit such a picture.

    I'm serious, I would really like to know. Because quite frankly, I did defend you in a thread a few weeks back. However, after the last week or so, I've contemplated my decision in doing so.

    Maybe you don't realize it. I don't know.
    Because if it were easy, I wouldn't be interested.
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  5. #5
    Moderator ZenBowman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mehdi84 View Post
    What I don't understand. So please fill me in is. How do you expect a person like me to be convinced that you do not have this anti-Muslim agenda, when over the past 2 weeks you have been creating an endless number of threads that fit such a picture.

    I'm serious, I would really like to know. Because quite frankly, I did defend you in a thread a few weeks back. However, after the last week or so, I've contemplated my decision in doing so.

    Maybe you don't realize it. I don't know.
    What I am against is the Islamization of the West and the Westernization of Muslim countries. IMO people on both sides are too busy trying to promote their own agendas into each other's territories to fix their own ****. But, as you have seen, I do believe that:
    - The Iraq war is unjustified and stupid
    - Muslim countries can be excellent places to live

    However, I also believe that radical Islam is a serious problem. Both countries that I consider home (India and the USA) have been victims of terrorism from radical Islamist factions, so naturally I am hostile to these people. The truth is that there are organizations which aim to impose Sharia on India (look up SIMI - Students Islamic Movement of India) and on the UK and USA, so I am showing videos and exposing this subversive movement. At the same time I believe the Western allied nations (US, UK, Aus) should stay the **** out of Muslim countries and let them handle themselves.

    Anyways, this is not the purpose of this thread, we should debate this elsewhere.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

    - CS Lewis
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  6. #6
    MJ= Jordan, not Jackson mjfan12's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mehdi84 View Post
    What I don't understand. So please fill me in is. How do you expect a person like me to be convinced that you do not have this anti-Muslim agenda, when over the past 2 weeks you have been creating an endless number of threads that fit such a picture.

    I'm serious, I would really like to know. Because quite frankly, I did defend you in a thread a few weeks back. However, after the last week or so, I've contemplated my decision in doing so.

    Maybe you don't realize it. I don't know.
    This kid is on my ignore list because of this.

    "sure muslims are cool, just stop following your book and act like secularists and everything will be great!"
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  7. #7
    Moderator ZenBowman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mjfan12 View Post
    This kid is on my ignore list because of this.

    "sure muslims are cool, just stop following your book and act like secularists and everything will be great!"
    I never said that brah, anyways, this thread is not based on that. If you have input on how a Muslim state should run, please post.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

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    Any state or law that is made with a foundation of lies is bound to fail.


    The sooner we send the end of this rubbish the better.
    Last edited by geeseman; 03-12-2009 at 04:06 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    What I am against is the Islamization of the West and the Westernization of Muslim countries. IMO people on both sides are too busy trying to promote their own agendas into each other's territories to fix their own ****.


    When should the muslim countries reverse the Westernization that has taken place and re-open the slave markets?

    How much should black slaves be priced at in the UAE vs. white slaves?

    If you buy female slaves how young can they be and how often can we rape them? (Actually sharia says 4 witnesses are needed in a rape case, so we can rape them as often as we choose, so long as not too many people watch.)

    Will the re-islmaized countries broadcast People's Court shows, and show hands, feet, and heads getting chopped off?

    Grow up, stop fantasizing, and be clear, and know your history and sharia.

    Human rights are just that, human, and Islam is contrary to most of them, particularly the right to follow your conscience and choose to leave Islam when your conscience tells you it is false.
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  10. #10
    Moderator ZenBowman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ripper6 View Post
    When should the muslim countries reverse the Westernization that has taken place and re-open the slave markets?

    How much should black slaves be priced at in the UAE vs. white slaves?

    If you buy female slaves how young can they be and how often can we rape them? (Actually sharia says 4 witnesses are needed in a rape case, so we can rape them as often as we choose, so long as not too many people watch.)

    Will the re-islmaized countries broadcast People's Court shows, and show hands, feet, and heads getting chopped off?

    Grow up, stop fantasizing, and be clear, and know your history and sharia.

    Human rights are just that, human, and Islam is contrary to most of them, particularly the right to follow your conscience and choose to leave Islam when your conscience tells you it is false.
    mehdi84, this is what is an anti-Muslim agenda. There is a difference between this and criticism on aspects of the faith. The difference should be pretty clear after reading this post.

    ripper6, troll elsewhere. Also note that slavery was a Western practice as well as a Muslim one. Slavery was an evil not contained in any one part of the world, everyone was responsible. FYI, no Muslim country today has slaves as far as I know. Also, 4 eyewitnesses are needed for the death penalty for rape, for lesser punishments other evidence works fine.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    Also note that slavery was a Western practice as well as a Muslim one. Slavery was an evil not contained in any one part of the world, everyone was responsible.


    Do some reading:

    http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Slavery.../dp/0312306237

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/015-slavery.htm

    It was white christian european men who forcibly ended the practice of slavery. It was the British fleet that destroyed the muslim-run slave-trading on the black African coasts. It was the new US fleet that went to war with the Barbary states and stopped the enslaving of white europeans on the Mediterranean coast.

    The Quran guarantees muslims the right to own slaves. It is a divine right to muslims. Who are you to say that muslim countries should surrender to the forced imposition of western values and ignore the rights Allah gave them?

    Again, when should we expect muslim countries to re-introduce slavery. Stop avoiding the question and stop avoiding the point. Islam NEEDS to be westernized, not the other way around.

    Human rights cover the whole planet, not just the non-muslim parts.


    Do something about it. Donate some money: http://www.iabolish.org/index.html
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    There's thousands of years of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam being a foundation for empires. The equivalent today is nations. The more power these religions have over a government body (monarchy, democracy or dictatorship), the worse for the people of all religions. This is true for my faith as well.

    Your example, Islam, has brought down many great empires and monarchies, and with each, the destruction of scientific libraries, history, and other forms of archives/developments. Christians and Jews have done the same.

    To be honest, threads like this make surprised I'm not an agnostic.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by ripper6 View Post

    It was white christian European men who forcibly ended the practice of slavery. It was the British fleet that destroyed the muslim-run slave-trading on the black African coasts. It was the new US fleet that went to war with the Barbary states and stopped the enslaving of white europeans on the Mediterranean coast.The Quran guarantees muslims the right to own slaves. It is a divine right to muslims. Who are you to say that muslim countries should surrender to the forced imposition of western values and ignore the rights Allah gave them?Again, when should we expect muslim countries to re-introduce slavery. Stop avoiding the question and stop avoiding the point. Islam NEEDS to be westernized, not the other way around.Human rights cover the whole planet, not just the non-muslim parts.
    Slavery has been done for over 4000 years. The difference between slaves owned by Muslims and slaves owned by christian: The slaves were treated right and with dignity in Islam. White Americans dint end slavery just like that. It took a civil war and blacks were still not accepted after.

    The prophet said "Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case, I advise you to help them"

    "None should say: "My slave," or: "My slave-girl," but instead he should say: "My lad," or: "My lass," or: "My boy."

    "And your slaves! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them with what you yourself wear. And if they commit a mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented!"

    "The masters were obliged not to put slaves under hardship; slaves were not to be tortured, abused or treated unjustly. They could marry among themselves - with their master's permission - or with free men or women! They could appear as witnesses and participate with free men in all affairs. Many of them were appointed as governors, commanders of army and administrators. In the eyes of Islam, a pious slave has precedence over an impious free man." Al-Tabataba'i, Tafsir (16:338-358).

    It should be realized that, when Islam came, slavery was prevalent throughout the world as an acknowledged fact of socio-economic existence. In fact, the economy of many regions during that period depended on a system where slavery played an integral part. It would have been impractical to eradicate slavery with a command to stop it altogether.

    In conclusion, there's a large difference between the slavery that took place here and the slavery that took place at the hands of Muslims. The prophet himself bought a slave to save him from something, forgot the story.
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    Moderator ZenBowman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Moh7 View Post
    Slavery has been done for over 4000 years. The difference between slaves owned by Muslims and slaves owned by christian: The slaves were treated right and with dignity in Islam. White Americans dint end slavery just like that. It took a civil war and blacks were still not accepted after.

    The prophet said "Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case, I advise you to help them"

    "None should say: "My slave," or: "My slave-girl," but instead he should say: "My lad," or: "My lass," or: "My boy."

    "And your slaves! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them with what you yourself wear. And if they commit a mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented!"

    "The masters were obliged not to put slaves under hardship; slaves were not to be tortured, abused or treated unjustly. They could marry among themselves - with their master's permission - or with free men or women! They could appear as witnesses and participate with free men in all affairs. Many of them were appointed as governors, commanders of army and administrators. In the eyes of Islam, a pious slave has precedence over an impious free man." Al-Tabataba'i, Tafsir (16:338-358).

    It should be realized that, when Islam came, slavery was prevalent throughout the world as an acknowledged fact of socio-economic existence. In fact, the economy of many regions during that period depended on a system where slavery played an integral part. It would have been impractical to eradicate slavery with a command to stop it altogether.

    In conclusion, there's a large difference between the slavery that took place here and the slavery that took place at the hands of Muslims. The prophet himself bought a slave to save him from something, forgot the story.
    Good balanced post. Would appreciate your contribution to the original discussion before it was derailed by attacks.
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    We could write an entire book describing how an entire country is supposed to function, so in answering this question we'll have to settle for bullet points.

    What is an Islamic state?

    It's a simple question with a simple answer. An Islamic state is one in which all the Laws of Islam are applied. It's actually a flexible construct. God has left certain matters completely fixed by Divine Law, and other matters completely flexible where Divine Law is silent.

    What is the goal of an Islamic state

    An Islamic state has multiple goals:

    1) To establish justice on earth by ruling by God's Law
    This involves protecting, to the extent outlined by God's Law:
    A) The intellect of citizens
    B) Their lives (and health)
    C) The practice of their religion
    D) Their lineage
    E) Their property

    2) To make it easier for its citizens to enter Paradise by creating a pious society

    This is an important distinction that is made with secular societies. A secular society is interested only in the mutual rights of citizens as they deal with financial and physical well-being. An Islamic state adds a third dimension: preservation of a religious environment and society.

    It is JUST AS illegal to harm someone religiously as it is to harm someone financially or physically. That's why the Islamic state completely prohibits the public practice of sinful activities. Citizens do NOT have the right to "sin" in public as this affects the religious conditions of others. If one wants to sin, one sins privately. Inviting others to sin is a crime.

    How is the leadership structure in an Islamic state

    There is a single leader in an Islamic state, called the Caliph. The Caliph is chosen according to the following characteristics:

    A) Male
    B) Knowledge of the Qur'an
    C) Knowledge of the Prophetic example
    D) Knowledge of jurisprudence
    E) Competence in matters of governance and military affairs
    F) Men who belong to the noble lineage of the Prophet (pbuh) or to Quraish should be favored, but it is not a pre-requisite to leadership if a better candidate exists fulfilling A-E.

    There is no set term for a Caliph. A Caliph rules until the judiciary demonstrates that he has left the fold of Islam. If according to the judiciary the Caliph commands something contrary to the Laws of Islam, his commands hold no water and need not be obeyed. He would be punished like any other citizen.

    The Caliph has no rights to the wealth of the state. He earns a mediocre salary and is not permitted to build a house larger than the common citizen.

    The Judicial System

    The judicial system is comprised of qualified Islamic scholars serving as judges. In Islam, a jury of peers is not relied upon. Instead, any jury must consist of scholastically qualified individuals and NOT laypersons voting on rulings.

    Apart from this point, there is flexibility on the details of the judicial construct.

    The Economic System

    The Islamic economic system is neither purely capitalistic nor socialist. Here are some basic guidelines:

    A) Usury, interest rates, etc. are completely forbidden
    B) A gold standard must exist
    C) Taxation is prohibited, the state must earn wealth through means other than personal income tax
    D) Citizens must pay the obligatory alms to the poor. This is 2.5% of the stagnant wealth of every adult male or female every year.
    E) Non-Muslim citizens are not required to pay the obligatory alms to the poor, but male non-Muslim citizens who are not poor are required to pay the Jizya tax, which is a modest annual fee which is calculated to be reasonable based on the state of the economy and should not be higher than what they would have to pay for obligatory alms had they been Muslim.

    Society

    The society in the Islamic state must be conducive to religious practice. This means that anything that is forbidden by Islamic Law CANNOT be practice in the public sphere.

    It is not true that women would be disallowed from working or driving. The prohibition on free mixing only applies to speaking to unmarried individuals without need. Business transactions and communication in the workplace is a need - flirtation is not a need and that is what would be forbidden.

    The Laws of the Land

    On all matters involving Divinely revealed Law, Islamic Law would be applied.

    On any matters which are not relevant to Islamic Law, such as maximum vehicular speed in a certain zone or other such details, then any local parliament can erect laws to govern the issue as long as they do not conflict with Islamic law (as approved by the judiciary).

    These are some general starting points I have outlined. I'm sure we can flesh out some points in more detail as questions arise.
    *** There is no one free of all need, of whom all else are in absolute need, but God ***

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    islamic state = worst of all forms of oppression

    look no further than their holy books guidelines AND their examples within...or just plain current events.
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    What I am against is the Islamization of the West and the Westernization of Muslim countries. IMO people on both sides are too busy trying to promote their own agendas into each other's territories to fix their own ****. But, as you have seen, I do believe that:
    - The Iraq war is unjustified and stupid
    - Muslim countries can be excellent places to live

    However, I also believe that radical Islam is a serious problem. Both countries that I consider home (India and the USA) have been victims of terrorism from radical Islamist factions, so naturally I am hostile to these people. The truth is that there are organizations which aim to impose Sharia on India (look up SIMI - Students Islamic Movement of India) and on the UK and USA, so I am showing videos and exposing this subversive movement. At the same time I believe the Western allied nations (US, UK, Aus) should stay the **** out of Muslim countries and let them handle themselves.

    Anyways, this is not the purpose of this thread, we should debate this elsewhere.
    I understand your grievance, however people and nations will always seek to invade or attack neighboring countries for their own 'interests', Westerners will try to Westernize the East and the East will react violently to such motives.
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    Originally Posted by bulldog559 View Post
    islamic state = worst of all forms of oppression

    look no further than their holy books guidelines AND their examples within...or just plain current events.
    Says the "christian" who advocates the murder of innocent civilians.
    5k+ with link
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    The perfect Islam state is one that follows verbatim the Koran.


    After the state in question is established, its residents would look around and realize they are living in the 8th century.
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    Originally Posted by SYRIANKID View Post
    How is the leadership structure in an Islamic state

    There is a single leader in an Islamic state, called the Caliph. The Caliph is chosen according to the following characteristics:

    A) Male
    B) Knowledge of the Qur'an
    C) Knowledge of the Prophetic example
    D) Knowledge of jurisprudence
    E) Competence in matters of governance and military affairs
    F) Men who belong to the noble lineage of the Prophet (pbuh) or to Quraish should be favored, but it is not a pre-requisite to leadership if a better candidate exists fulfilling A-E.

    There is no set term for a Caliph. A Caliph rules until the judiciary demonstrates that he has left the fold of Islam. If according to the judiciary the Caliph commands something contrary to the Laws of Islam, his commands hold no water and need not be obeyed. He would be punished like any other citizen.

    The Caliph has no rights to the wealth of the state. He earns a mediocre salary and is not permitted to build a house larger than the common citizen.
    Very good answer. Here is the next set regarding the Caliph:

    1) By what process is the Caliph chosen? Is it a democratic process? Or is he chosen by a religious panel? If so, how is the religious panel chosen? In a practical sense this is the toughest challenge, as they will be many who claim that they are the best man for the role of Caliph. How this is resolved is a difficult issue. While you have listed the criteria, and they seem excellent, what is the actual process. Let's say you have a nation of 150 million people who are in the process of establishing an Islamic state. How would the 150 million agree on a single leader?

    2) How can the Caliph be impeached. You mentioned that a Caliph can be removed for breaking Islamic laws and the judiciary would decide this. However, is the judiciary appointed by the Caliph or by a democratic process? If it is the former, chances are the Caliph will have a considerable influence on the jury which is potentially dangerous.

    3) Can the Caliph overrule the judiciary or vice-versa? If not, what is the Caliph's primary role and what are his responsibilities?

    Thanks, excellent answers so far.
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    Very good answer. Here is the next set regarding the Caliph:

    1) By what process is the Caliph chosen? Is it a democratic process? Or is he chosen by a religious panel? If so, how is the religious panel chosen? In a practical sense this is the toughest challenge, as they will be many who claim that they are the best man for the role of Caliph. How this is resolved is a difficult issue. While you have listed the criteria, and they seem excellent, what is the actual process. Let's say you have a nation of 150 million people who are in the process of establishing an Islamic state. How would the 150 million agree on a single leader?
    It's a democratic process. As long as candidates fulfill the minimum criteria I listed according to the judiciary, then the people can select a leader. If someone doesn't fulfill the criteria according to the scholarly panel, then it doesn't matter how many votes they get because they are not eligible for leadership according to Islamic law.

    2) How can the Caliph be impeached. You mentioned that a Caliph can be removed for breaking Islamic laws and the judiciary would decide this. However, is the judiciary appointed by the Caliph or by a democratic process? If it is the former, chances are the Caliph will have a considerable influence on the jury which is potentially dangerous.
    Muslims invented the concept of independent testimony. Scholars represent qualified jurists. A Caliph is ideally a scholar himself, but he is only one scholar who is graded by thousands of scholars in the judiciary. So no, the Caliph doesn't get to select who belongs to the judiciary. The judiciary is comprised of qualified individuals as evaluated by their own peers.

    3) Can the Caliph overrule the judiciary or vice-versa? If not, what is the Caliph's primary role and what are his responsibilities?

    Thanks, excellent answers so far.
    The judiciary's role is to evaluate the actions of the Caliph according to Islamic law. So as long as the Caliph's actions are permissible, then they are legitimate. The Caliph would consult the judiciary for advice, but the final decision rests with him in choosing among various permissible options.

    The Caliph cannot "overrule" the judiciary if they deem something to be Islamically impermissible. He is subject to Islamic law like anyone else. They just make sure he chooses among permissible options.
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    Originally Posted by SYRIANKID View Post
    It's a democratic process. As long as candidates fulfill the minimum criteria I listed according to the judiciary, then the people can select a leader. If someone doesn't fulfill the criteria according to the scholarly panel, then it doesn't matter how many votes they get because they are not eligible for leadership according to Islamic law.



    Muslims invented the concept of independent testimony. Scholars represent qualified jurists. A Caliph is ideally a scholar himself, but he is only one scholar who is graded by thousands of scholars in the judiciary. So no, the Caliph doesn't get to select who belongs to the judiciary. The judiciary is comprised of qualified individuals as evaluated by their own peers.



    The judiciary's role is to evaluate the actions of the Caliph according to Islamic law. So as long as the Caliph's actions are permissible, then they are legitimate. The Caliph would consult the judiciary for advice, but the final decision rests with him in choosing among various permissible options.

    The Caliph cannot "overrule" the judiciary if they deem something to be Islamically impermissible. He is subject to Islamic law like anyone else. They just make sure he chooses among permissible options.
    Very good. I think such a system would work very well. In my opinion, the best way to show people that Islam can work is by building a legitimate Islamic state, and leading it by just arbitrary principles. It should be so good that outsiders can look at the state and the people living in it and say "I wish I was a Muslim so I could live there" or "I am converting to Islam because I want to be like them". The worst advertisements for Islam today are (a) terrorists and (b) the condition of the Muslim world. A truly successful Islamic state would, in my opinion, be a cause for great harmony in the world because (a) people trying to impose Islam on the West would have a place to go to and leave the Westerners to live in peace AND (b) the West would be proven wrong as the notion that a state can be Islamic and successful both would be held true.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

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    Great thread and some good points raised OP, same goes to Syriankid.

    I think the first thing Western government needs to learn is that multicultralism does not work. It is like putting Lions and Tigers in a cage together at a zoo.

    This isn't to say that two cultures can't live side by side, but the minority needs to accept that that voice of the majority is most important. Muslims living in the UK should not even mention turning this country into a Sharia state or anything else. It is a christian nation and should stay that way. At the same time Western influence needs to be toned down in muslim countries, especially dubai.

    Not sure how well I worded that but you get the jist of what I mean
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    Originally Posted by dave.mc View Post
    Great thread and some good points raised OP, same goes to Syriankid.

    I think the first thing Western government needs to learn is that multicultralism does not work. It is like putting Lions and Tigers in a cage together at a zoo.

    This isn't to say that two cultures can't live side by side, but the minority needs to accept that that voice of the majority is most important. Muslims living in the UK should not even mention turning this country into a Sharia state or anything else. It is a christian nation and should stay that way. At the same time Western influence needs to be toned down in muslim countries, especially dubai.

    Not sure how well I worded that but you get the jist of what I mean
    Exactly what I believe. Multiculturalism will only destroy both cultures. What I see nowadays is that Muslim countries are either getting less and less Islamic or getting radicalized, and the same for Western nations. I have already seen a great Muslim nation, the UAE, been corrupted by Western influence and immigrants who believe their culture is superior, and the exact reverse is happening in Europe. Both developments are disturbing.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

    - CS Lewis
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    Exactly what I believe. Multiculturalism will only destroy both cultures. What I see nowadays is that Muslim countries are either getting less and less Islamic or getting radicalized, and the same for Western nations. I have already seen a great Muslim nation, the UAE, been corrupted by Western influence and immigrants who believe their culture is superior, and the exact reverse is happening in Europe. Both developments are disturbing.
    Exactly how I see it, the problem is though the world is a very small place now and people can't help but get involved with eachother and with power comes greed.

    Just look at the whole situation with the Saudi's. Im not the biggest fan of Islam but even I can see that the Saudi leaders rule with fear and brutality and disguise it as Islam. They care more about money than anything the Koran has to say.
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    Very good. I think such a system would work very well. In my opinion, the best way to show people that Islam can work is by building a legitimate Islamic state, and leading it by just arbitrary principles.
    I hope you realize that the United States and Europe have been systematically trying to prevent Islamists from doing exactly that, both militarily and financially. Who do you think are the top supporters of secular dictators in the Muslim world?

    You do realize that an Islamic state would be the most powerful confederation on the face of the planet? That's ignoring the sheer economic and resource leverage it would have.

    The irony is that wars against Islamists in Iraq and Afghanistan have only strengthened Islamism and accelerated the political push for Islam.

    We wish that the Ottoman spirit will return to those places. Neo-cons versus the neo-Ottomans. Fethullah Gulen

    If Islamic rule is an idea taking hold among the Islamic masses, how does even the best army on earth stop it? Pat Buchanan (23/06/06)

    They hope to establish a violent political utopia across the Middle East, which they call a "Caliphate" -- where all would be ruled according to their hateful ideology.

    I'm not going to allow this to happen -- and no future American President can allow it either.
    President Bush

    Iraq would serve as the base of a new Islamic caliphate to extend throughout the Middle East, and which would threaten legitimate governments in Europe, Africa and Asia. Dick Cheney (US VP - 12/05)

    The situation now is that Turkey is dead and will never rise again, because we have destroyed its moral strength, the Caliphate and Islam. Curzon (UK Foreign Min 1924)
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    Originally Posted by psamty View Post
    Very good answer. Here is the next set regarding the Caliph:

    1) By what process is the Caliph chosen? Is it a democratic process? Or is he chosen by a religious panel? If so, how is the religious panel chosen? In a practical sense this is the toughest challenge, as they will be many who claim that they are the best man for the role of Caliph. How this is resolved is a difficult issue. While you have listed the criteria, and they seem excellent, what is the actual process. Let's say you have a nation of 150 million people who are in the process of establishing an Islamic state. How would the 150 million agree on a single leader?

    2) How can the Caliph be impeached. You mentioned that a Caliph can be removed for breaking Islamic laws and the judiciary would decide this. However, is the judiciary appointed by the Caliph or by a democratic process? If it is the former, chances are the Caliph will have a considerable influence on the jury which is potentially dangerous.

    3) Can the Caliph overrule the judiciary or vice-versa? If not, what is the Caliph's primary role and what are his responsibilities?

    Thanks, excellent answers so far.
    More on the Caliph:

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    Would there be free trade between an Islamic state and non-Islamic states?
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    Originally Posted by SYRIANKID View Post
    We could write an entire book describing how an entire country is supposed to function, so in answering this question we'll have to settle for bullet points.

    What is an Islamic state?

    It's a simple question with a simple answer. An Islamic state is one in which all the Laws of Islam are applied. It's actually a flexible construct. God has left certain matters completely fixed by Divine Law, and other matters completely flexible where Divine Law is silent.

    What is the goal of an Islamic state

    An Islamic state has multiple goals:

    1) To establish justice on earth by ruling by God's Law
    This involves protecting, to the extent outlined by God's Law:
    A) The intellect of citizens
    B) Their lives (and health)
    C) The practice of their religion
    D) Their lineage
    E) Their property

    2) To make it easier for its citizens to enter Paradise by creating a pious society
    The whole description of a Caliphate sounds amazing. I have some questions though,
    1)If there were to be an Islamic Caliphate which stretched throughout all of the present-day countries that are "Muslim" would there just be one Caliph?

    2)Would it just be like one whole country? Would there be any divisions in the caliphate (regions, borders, etc.)?

    3) Would there be divisions in government for example, for municipalities and regions?
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    Originally Posted by FormVoltron88 View Post
    The whole description of a Caliphate sounds amazing. I have some questions though,
    1)If there were to be an Islamic Caliphate which stretched throughout all of the present-day countries that are "Muslim" would there just be one Caliph?

    2)Would it just be like one whole country? Would there be any divisions in the caliphate (regions, borders, etc.)?

    3) Would there be divisions in government for example, for municipalities and regions?
    There can only be One Caliph whose decisions affect the entire state.

    But each region can have an "Ameer" to govern (micromanage) it. And governance can be further broken down for ease of coordination.
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