Water retention (possible edema)

[bobby444]

Apologies in advance for this long post. I've been getting really pissed off recently so i decided it would be a good idea to vent/ask for advice on here.

In the last 8-10 months, whilst i've been slowly bulking i've started to really hold loads of water. At the beginning I thought it could have been due to taking creatine, eating a moderate sodium diet or inadequate water. I subsequently stopped all supplements containing creatine, made sure my sodium intake was low and started drinking lots of water. Once this did nothing i started to get a bit worried, tried lots of natural diuretics as well as dandelion root capsules, all of which had very little effect. By this time i started getting awful cramps in my calves when i would go jogging as the fluid would build up in them. I went to see a doctor who didnt think it was a anything serious, blood work showed kidneys were fine, so she gave me VERY weak diuretic pills which did nothing for me. This doctor then passed me off to another doctor who told me that there was nothing wrong with me, he refused to give me any kind of stronger diuretic and told me come back in a month and we'll moniter my weight.

I'm not a big guy, i'm about 6 foot, 190lbs (i feel maybe 15lbs or so could be excess fluid), and when i first got into bodybuilding i had no fluid retention, and it would be very hard for me to gain weight (ectomorph). The problem with the fluid retention is that it makes it very hard to know whether to increase/decrease calories, and what my actual weight is (weight minus excess fluid),and if i'm gaining muscle from week to week (or just fluid). I'm going to have to resort to buying some strong perscription diuretics off a few different dodgy websites and see how they work as i'm out of ideas, and can't really make any real progress untill i sort this fluid retention out.

symptoms i have that tell me it's edema:

bloated abdominal
swollen ankles (socks leave deep indentation)
weight fluctuates A LOT
puffiness around eyes and cheeks


Any input appreciated,

thanks

[bobby444]

anyone?

[Dr. Horse]

Did your doctor not think you had edema? Because if they didn't, I would trust them.

[bigbi21]

for sure see a doc and that will tell ya what to do! sorry wish i could help more but it looks like you have done everything i would have done!

[FitFinch]

Apologies in advance for this long post. I've been getting really pissed off recently so i decided it would be a good idea to vent/ask for advice on here.

In the last 8-10 months, whilst i've been slowly bulking i've started to really hold loads of water. At the beginning I thought it could have been due to taking creatine, eating a moderate sodium diet or inadequate water. I subsequently stopped all supplements containing creatine, made sure my sodium intake was low and started drinking lots of water. Once this did nothing i started to get a bit worried, tried lots of natural diuretics as well as dandelion root capsules, all of which had very little effect. By this time i started getting awful cramps in my calves when i would go jogging as the fluid would build up in them. I went to see a doctor who didnt think it was a anything serious, blood work showed kidneys were fine, so she gave me VERY weak diuretic pills which did nothing for me. This doctor then passed me off to another doctor who told me that there was nothing wrong with me, he refused to give me any kind of stronger diuretic and told me come back in a month and we'll moniter my weight.

I'm not a big guy, i'm about 6 foot, 190lbs (i feel maybe 15lbs or so could be excess fluid), and when i first got into bodybuilding i had no fluid retention, and it would be very hard for me to gain weight (ectomorph). The problem with the fluid retention is that it makes it very hard to know whether to increase/decrease calories, and what my actual weight is (weight minus excess fluid),and if i'm gaining muscle from week to week (or just fluid). I'm going to have to resort to buying some strong perscription diuretics off a few different dodgy websites and see how they work as i'm out of ideas, and can't really make any real progress untill i sort this fluid retention out.

symptoms i have that tell me it's edema:

bloated abdominal
swollen ankles (socks leave deep indentation)
weight fluctuates A LOT
puffiness around eyes and cheeks


Any input appreciated,

thanks

Exact intake of

Sodium?
Water?
Potassium?
Calories?
Macros?

What is your training routine?

[Lector606]

Apologies in advance for this long post. I've been getting really pissed off recently so i decided it would be a good idea to vent/ask for advice on here.

In the last 8-10 months, whilst i've been slowly bulking i've started to really hold loads of water. At the beginning I thought it could have been due to taking creatine, eating a moderate sodium diet or inadequate water. I subsequently stopped all supplements containing creatine, made sure my sodium intake was low and started drinking lots of water. Once this did nothing i started to get a bit worried, tried lots of natural diuretics as well as dandelion root capsules, all of which had very little effect. By this time i started getting awful cramps in my calves when i would go jogging as the fluid would build up in them. I went to see a doctor who didnt think it was a anything serious, blood work showed kidneys were fine, so she gave me VERY weak diuretic pills which did nothing for me. This doctor then passed me off to another doctor who told me that there was nothing wrong with me, he refused to give me any kind of stronger diuretic and told me come back in a month and we'll moniter my weight.

I'm not a big guy, i'm about 6 foot, 190lbs (i feel maybe 15lbs or so could be excess fluid), and when i first got into bodybuilding i had no fluid retention, and it would be very hard for me to gain weight (ectomorph). The problem with the fluid retention is that it makes it very hard to know whether to increase/decrease calories, and what my actual weight is (weight minus excess fluid),and if i'm gaining muscle from week to week (or just fluid). I'm going to have to resort to buying some strong perscription diuretics off a few different dodgy websites and see how they work as i'm out of ideas, and can't really make any real progress untill i sort this fluid retention out.

symptoms i have that tell me it's edema:

bloated abdominal
swollen ankles (socks leave deep indentation)
weight fluctuates A LOT
puffiness around eyes and cheeks


Any input appreciated,

thanks

I've had the same thing, and it turned out to be a reaction to red wine vinegar believe it or not. I can have apple cider vinegar in moderation but any processed vinegar (white, red and white wine) make me gain like ten pounds of water. Excessive amounts of sucralose (splenda) also make my eyes and cheeks very puffy, to the extent that it is painful. Do you take in large amounts of either of these things?

[bobby444]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm not sure about my exact intake of sodium but it's very low, 90% of my diet is brown rice/pasta, low salt mince meat, chicken breast, and fruit and vegetables. And i don't eat any junk food at all really.

Water intake has been as high as a gallon and a half before (didnt make a difference) so now i've brought it down to about half a gallon in the last few weeks.

Calories at 4500 (increased upto this amount very steadily).

Macros must be about 220g protein, 250g fat (mostly EFA's), 500g carbs (mostly low GI).

Training routine is now a 4 day push pull split with all your major lifts, mixing reps up between 5 and 10.

Lector606 - i don't have either of those things in my diet so i don't think it could be that. I took milk out of my diet for a week though but that made no difference.

[bobby444]

???

[Lector606]

500g carbs is a lot, i dont remember how much water a gram of carbohydrate holds but id say it's just that

[Lector606]

500g carbs is a lot, i dont remember how much water a gram of carbohydrate holds but id say it's just that

also how on earth are you eating 250g of fat with the foods you listed? are you sure about this? i don't see how it's possible

[bobby444]

thanks for replies lector. sorry i forgot to add that i add olive oil to lots of things which is why fat is that amount. Is 500g really that much? i bet there's lots of people who have this if not more carbs when they're bulking and don't experience water retention. I just thought lots of carbs were helpful in a bulking cycle?

[bobby444]

???

[reefpicker]

At the beginning I thought it could have been due to taking creatine, eating a moderate sodium diet or inadequate water.

Creatine: Yes
Sodium: Yes
Inadequate water: Can't see how.

I subsequently stopped all supplements containing creatine, made sure my sodium intake was low and started drinking lots of water. Once this did nothing i started to get a bit worried, tried lots of natural diuretics as well as dandelion root capsules, all of which had very little effect. By this time i started getting awful cramps in my calves when i would go jogging as the fluid would build up in them.

Cramps are not always caused by edema. In fact, they are almost never caused by edema.

I went to see a doctor who didnt think it was a anything serious, blood work showed kidneys were fine, so she gave me VERY weak diuretic pills which did nothing for me. This doctor then passed me off to another doctor who told me that there was nothing wrong with me, he refused to give me any kind of stronger diuretic and told me come back in a month and we'll moniter my weight.

2 Physicians have already told you it's not edema. Blood work has confirmed that nothing is wrong with you. Let's take it from there and not blame them for incompetence... They can only cure the sick, not the healthy.

The problem with the fluid retention is that it makes it very hard to know whether to increase/decrease calories, and what my actual weight is (weight minus excess fluid),and if i'm gaining muscle from week to week (or just fluid).

Like that favorite star trek quote of mine, humans are "ugly bags of mostly water". The water in your body does not interfere with your calculations of caloric intake because you can actually retain so much water and those calculations take that into account. The amount of fluid in your body affects concentration of vital solutes, so you can't hold just 2x of water than another human being because most likely you would die if you did. Water retention itself (as puffiness), is a phenomena of water moving out of blood and into areas that it is not supposed to be. However, those areas are in communication with your blood and thus affect the solutes in your blood too... Suffice it to say that this is the reason that sodium can be used to control water retention.

I'm going to have to resort to buying some strong perscription diuretics off a few different dodgy websites and see how they work as i'm out of ideas, and can't really make any real progress untill i sort this fluid retention out.

Forgive me to say this, but you are acting like a little kid that does not get his candy! Maybe you have to face the fact that you do not have a significant amount of fluid retention to justify using diuretics, which could potentially harm your body, dehydrate you, etc.

symptoms i have that tell me it's edema:

bloated abdominal
swollen ankles (socks leave deep indentation)
weight fluctuates A LOT
puffiness around eyes and cheeks

thanks

-bloated abdominal is a subjective term. I would not put too much into it.
-Swollen ankles can be due to other issues, so it can be a symptomp of edema or not.
-Fluctuation in weight can be due to a lot of things, among them changes in hydration, not just water retention.
-puffiness around eyes and cheeks could be water retention but it can also be due to other things such as allergies, or a lack of sleep.

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm not sure about my exact intake of sodium but it's very low, 90% of my diet is brown rice/pasta, low salt mince meat, chicken breast, and fruit and vegetables. And i don't eat any junk food at all really.

Water intake has been as high as a gallon and a half before (didnt make a difference) so now i've brought it down to about half a gallon in the last few weeks.

Calories at 4500 (increased upto this amount very steadily).

Macros must be about 220g protein, 250g fat (mostly EFA's), 500g carbs (mostly low GI).

Training routine is now a 4 day push pull split with all your major lifts, mixing reps up between 5 and 10.

First, water intake won't change your fluid retention. You need to understand that. Fluid retention is mostly due to an imbalance in your sodium/potassium intake.

According to our bb.com folklore, carbs cause you to retain water and feel "puffy", so that would be a possible cause. However, I do not understand or give credence to this factoid.

If you take a lot of carbs, and not much in way of say meat, fish, and non-whey protein sources, you could cause a major imbalance in your Na/K, which can cause you to retain water.

There are many sources of sodium other than salt.

Cramps can be a symptomp of dehydration too or not warming up.

Do you sweat a lot?

You would need to play with your sodium intake and/or potassium intake until you get rid of your puffiness feeling. Keep in mind that such changes can take one or two full days, perhaps even more.

You could note the foods you eat and the fluctuation in weight. If you gain weight, it means you have retained water and that whatever you ate in the last 24hrs caused you to retain water.

I have noted that for me, dining at restaurants makes me retain water the next day. That's usually because of the salt.

HTH

[FitFinch]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm not sure about my exact intake of sodium but it's very low, 90% of my diet is brown rice/pasta, low salt mince meat, chicken breast, and fruit and vegetables. And i don't eat any junk food at all really.

Water intake has been as high as a gallon and a half before (didnt make a difference) so now i've brought it down to about half a gallon in the last few weeks.

Calories at 4500 (increased upto this amount very steadily).

Macros must be about 220g protein, 250g fat (mostly EFA's), 500g carbs (mostly low GI).

Training routine is now a 4 day push pull split with all your major lifts, mixing reps up between 5 and 10.

Lector606 - i don't have either of those things in my diet so i don't think it could be that. I took milk out of my diet for a week though but that made no difference.

You need to make sure that you have a balance of sodium water and potassium. If you are taking in really low amounts of sodium that is bad for your body.

As for the carbs, 500g for a bulk isn't that high, but increasing to that amount can cause water retention (I think for every gram of carbs you hold 3 of water, but don't quote me on that).

The sock rings can be a sign of edema, if I were you I would increase the sodium intake, try getting it through a sea salt with more minerals, and I would increase you potassium through food and maybe getting a lite salt (with a 2:1 ratio potassium to sodium).

If you still have problems talk to your doctor I would also recommend reading MRM or the Water Manual --> http://fatlosstroubleshoot.com

[reefpicker]

if I were you I would increase the sodium intake, try getting it through a sea salt with more minerals, and I would increase you potassium through food and maybe getting a lite salt (with a 2:1 ratio potassium to sodium).

What you said about potassium is correct, however a person retaining water does not want to increase sodium intake. That will only cause more water retention.

Au contraire, that person should DECREASE sodium intake.

[FitFinch]

What you said about potassium is correct, however a person retaining water does not want to increase sodium intake. That will only cause more water retention.

Au contraire, that person should DECREASE sodium intake.

Normally I would agree with that statement but the OP stated that they have a very low intake, granted they could be wrong (and to OP if you list how many mg you are getting that would be great) but water retention can be caused by a lack of sodium if you are taking in too little and lots of water.

[thedestro]

Just so you know, 500g carbs, 250g fat, and 220g protein doesn't add up to 4500cal.

Regardless, that many carbs will cause significant water retention.

[Dr. Horse]

Just so you know, 500g carbs, 250g fat, and 220g protein doesn't add up to 4500cal.

Regardless, that many carbs will cause significant water retention.

What is water "retention"?

[devo09]

What is water "retention"?

the nice guy way of say "fat"

but dude, cramps could be from lack of sodium. Quit having low sodium condiments. I've never understood that, even if you have high sodium intake your body will adjust to that and it won't cause "water retention"

[thedestro]

What is water "retention"?

more sodium chloride in blood = need more water to maintain sodium concentration.

[Dr. Horse]

more sodium chloride in blood = need more water to maintain sodium concentration.

But I thought you said carbs cause retention.

[thedestro]

But I thought you said carbs cause retention.

Come on dude, it's been known since at least 1860 that carbohydrate-rich diets can cause the body to retain water, and it's often used as a criticism of low-carb diets, claiming that the rapid weight-loss is mostly water, and not fat.

[Dr. Horse]

Come on dude, it's been known since at least 1860 that carbohydrate-rich diets can cause the body to retain water, and it's often used as a criticism of low-carb diets, claiming that the rapid weight-loss is mostly water, and not fat.

Hey, it was you who changed the subject, not me.

Besides, my original question was about your usage of the term "retention".

[thedestro]

Hey, it was you who changed the subject, not me.

Perhaps, but I consider carbs, sodium, and water retention to be intimately linked. By the early 70's it had been demonstrated that the water retaining effect of carboydrates was through the insulin secreted, which prompts the kidneys to reabsorb sodium rather than excrete it. In the textbook Joslin's Diabetes Melitus it is suggested that the chronically elevated levels of insulin is indeed the major pathogenic defect initiating the hypertensive process. None of this is controversial, except that insulin's effect on electrolyte balance is rarely extended into it's implications regarding hypertension.

[Giovanni.]

A similar thing happened to me at Christmas. I decided to go all out and eat whatever the hell I wanted for 7 days, with no exercise (until Jan 1st '09).

By the 7th day, my stomach was huge, my ankles were swollen (they looked HUGE after I took my socks off lol) My arms and legs looked bloated, and my face looked a lot bigger and chubby in the mirror. When I weighed myself I had gained 20lbs! I seriously could not believe what I was seeing! In just 7 days!

After I got my eating and exercise back on track, I lost 14lbs in 7 days. Water weight is crazy!

[reefpicker]

Perhaps, but I consider carbs, sodium, and water retention to be intimately linked. By the early 70's it had been demonstrated that the water retaining effect of carboydrates was through the insulin secreted, which prompts the kidneys to reabsorb sodium rather than excrete it. In the textbook Joslin's Diabetes Melitus it is suggested that the chronically elevated levels of insulin is indeed the major pathogenic defect initiating the hypertensive process. None of this is controversial, except that insulin's effect on electrolyte balance is rarely extended into it's implications regarding hypertension.

I think the "perhaps" applies only to pathologic levels of insulin or glucose. Normal blood levels, no.

The idea that carbs retain water is a bit silly at best. You see, if I ask you, where do they retain water? What would you say? Unlike fat, carbohydrates are stored in muscle tissue or in the liver. Specifically, skeletal muscle stores glycogen. However, those stores are limited and to my understanding they can only reach a certain level. Hence, I think that you are normally storing the maximal amount as long as your diet contains a normal level of carbohydrates.

Increasing the amount of carbohydrate consumption should not increase glycogen stores. The only way excess carbs go is the way of the fat

Thus, I really see absolutely no logic or even the possibility of a reasonable explanation to the carbs => water retention.

Water retention has to do with total body water. When total body water and solutes are increased, water moves into the extracellular space, creating often visible puffiness around your extremities and even your face...

Even if transiently, carbs increased total body water (don't you get thirsty after eating something super sweet? I do), after a few hours the body should be able to metabolize them and pee whatever water was called in to take care of the need for decreasing the osmolality of the blood.... And usually these mechanisms are very quick... I only know of pathological cases where glucose increases osmolality (like in diabetes), and keep in mind that even in that case, plasma osmolality is not as affected as urine osmolarity... As glucose is being lost in the urine, that increases urine water, and that increases urine volume, which in turn causes dehydration and forms two legs of the cardinal three signs for diabetes mellitus (3 Ps : Polyuria, polydypsia, and poly****ia).


If you have a different take on this, I would be glad to hear it. Maybe I am just being blinded by my limited knowledge of this rather complex system.