why do personal trainers also have their "clients" use non sense exercises

[BrotherWolf]

The problem resides in the additional stress that the weight places on an already tainted machine system.

Lets say 200 lb Joe Blow walks into a gym for the first day of his life and has inactive glutes, uneven hips, coupled with latent trigger points infesting his IT bands, piriformis, etc. How can you expect him to even lift with anything resembling "proper form?" The issue is that he literally can't get into these positions safely at bodyweight let alone with weight on his back. Joe Blow has no proprioception and mutated body mechanics.

Therefore the answer is to first address why the machine's mechanics are not operating correctly, and second, to correct these issues in the safest way possible. This is where stretching, trigger point work (basically massage), and diet come into play. They act as a prehabilitation program to prepare the individual to the demands of strenuous weightlifting.

My first post may have come across as unsupported, but in essence, I was arguing for a program that prepares the novice for weightlifting by ensuring that proper mechanics and form are attainable.

Also, as a side note, anyone who has ever trained a very beginning client or "noob" in simple stretches (both dynamic and static) can attest to the physical demands the individual experiences. This program isn't a walk in the park by any means but an actual workout that utilizes the body's own weight to fix the already present imbalances. After these issues are corrected, stretching (both dynamic and static) should be used as supplemental prehabilitation, maintenance, and rehabilitation for one's weightlifting program. Countless times has one complained about nagging pain in the knee or elbow and not looked toward fixing issues in the hip or shoulder as a means for relief.

Here are a few articles that discuss the topics of body mechanics and beneficial exercises for correcting common postural deviations:
http://stronglifts.com/7-dynamic-str...-hip-mobility/
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...sture_shoulder
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...al/pelvic_tilt

Here is an article highlighting the benefits of different types of stretching:
http://www.trickstutorials.com/index...e=content/flx2

It's obvious that you are working in an environment where the majority of your clients are either paraplegics or recovering from some injury... normal people even middle age sedentary folks
are in better shape than your clients and are capable to do weight training from day one ..
How much weight and what exercises they do at first depends on their physical limitations


Nothing wrong with stretches so long that they are done properly
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/sp...warm.html?_r=1

[Al Shades]

Is glute firing really a problem?

Yes, but it tends to overshadow the real problem, which is that untrained, sedentary individuals who don't come from an athletic background can't fire anything correctly. The best way to evaluate this and fix it is to have them perform relatively simple mobility exercises for each joint.

Hip twists, for example. All you do is put one leg out in front of you like a dancer and twist the hip in and out. The movement should be pure hip rotation, but uncoordinated people have a hell of a time of it and basically have to throw their entire body into the movement.

Same thing happens with the shoulders. If you tell someone with awful coordination to do some very simple arm circles the result will be painful to watch. They have to twist and contort their entire body, shrug up their shoulders and they still can't even approach full ROM.

Some people are so bad that you honestly have to wonder how they manage to go about their daily routines without killing themselves.

[Al Shades]

whoa whoa whoa.
heavy is relative.
what about "relative strength" ?
I'm pretty sure Mark Rippetoe's program for new comers is fantastic.
skinny guy doing compounds isn't going to get crap? maybe you just worded this wrong... i hope you did.

Skinny guy doing compounds is going to get stronger at the compounds he's doing. He is not going to get any less skinny, however. I know because that was me for a while.

When a skinny guy with crap leverages tries to go heavy, the only thing he is going to be overloading is his joints and connective tissues. Ecto's aren't built to lift heavy and shouldn't. Seeing an ecto trying to max out on one of the big three is a joke. The notion that he is going to get big from doing that is an even bigger joke.

Ecto's need machine isolation training like obese people need to cut carbs.

Big people have "padding". It doesn't matter if it comes from fat or muscle. Padding does two things: One, it protects the joints. Two, it restricts the working ROM to the middle portion of any movement, where people are strongest, thereby allowing the padded person to lift more weight and provide the illusion of being "stronger". Strength doesn't really exist as an individual quality. It is a combination of numerous factors, most of which have little or nothing to do with the conventional notion of "strength".

[Al Shades]

P.S. On a side note, whenever I go to Japan I am amazed at the flexibility of the asian culture. They sit in the full squat position so comfortably and naturally, as it should be. Their secret? Raised to sit and eat on the floor since childhood.

Their "other" secret is the fact that they're about as tall as most Western Europeans are when they are 12-14 years old.

Just to put things in perspective.

At my gym we only do 30 minute sessions so taking the time to teach a person who has never squatted or deadlifted would probably take up the whole session they paid for. That doesn't go over well when they come in there expecting to work hard for 30 mins and then all they get is how to do a proper squat/deadlift. They look at you and ask "This won't take off a session will it bc we didn't really workout?"

Then, quite frankly, your system is broken and needs to change. You should be going into each session with a designated workload and the sessions should last as long as it takes to get the work done. Mine are an hour "on paper" but if I have my way, nearly always longer in practice. Up to two hours is not uncommon. I don't give a **** about the time, I give a **** making people understand what the hell they are doing. As I always say, quality takes its time.

If you are trying to cram everything into neat, bite-size chunks of time you will fail to teach them anything worthwhile. *You* didn't learn how to lift in half hour installments, so why should they?

[unauthorized]

Skinny guy doing compounds is going to get stronger at the compounds he's doing. He is not going to get any less skinny, however. I know because that was me for a while.

When a skinny guy with crap leverages tries to go heavy, the only thing he is going to be overloading is his joints and connective tissues. Ecto's aren't built to lift heavy and shouldn't. Seeing an ecto trying to max out on one of the big three is a joke. The notion that he is going to get big from doing that is an even bigger joke.

Ecto's need machine isolation training like obese people need to cut carbs.

Big people have "padding". It doesn't matter if it comes from fat or muscle. Padding does two things: One, it protects the joints. Two, it restricts the working ROM to the middle portion of any movement, where people are strongest, thereby allowing the padded person to lift more weight and provide the illusion of being "stronger". Strength doesn't really exist as an individual quality. It is a combination of numerous factors, most of which have little or nothing to do with the conventional notion of "strength".

Not everyone is you. What may work for you, may not work for the next person. Just keep that in mind

[SHOWTIME]

Not everyone is you. What may work for you, may not work for the next person. Just keep that in mind

Bingo,

Now I think AL shades is a great contributor to this part of the forum, his advice although sometimes aggressive, is generally right on mark.

But to say ectos should not lift heavy is just foolish, although I agree on the second part of his tangent that a ecto will not necessarily be getting bigger.

[dan110989]

Once youve gotten their heart rate up, and they have done a few full body exercises, their's nothing wrong with throwing in some isolations to fully exhaust the muscle. Most trainers suck, so they make their clients only do bicep curls n crap, but if you structure it right. After youve put them through the really affective exercises , the isolations can really kill it at the end, so don't completley forget about them.

-Dan

[KyleAaron]

Bloody hell, Dan, it's enough that we get cocksmocks wandering in here on a regular basis starting "PT suxxorz!" threads, we don't need trainers digging up years-old threads as well. When the big turd finally flushes, let it sink, let it sink.

[MT1979]

really? i dont see anyone with good appearance using machines? look at me...

You're 145lbs. What's your point?

[LongLefty]

You're 145lbs. What's your point?

haha that was outta line, but I have to admit I laughed

To the original poster of this thread, the burning question I had is 'what does someone elses workout routine have to do with you personally?' I think I've asked this question various times in other posts with never an answer.

Training has evolved, some machines and movements target certain body parts better than others, speaking for myself that is. Do I care that you do squats and I do leg presses, not a tiny bit. Bodybuilding is not an exact science, as remarkably alot of people here seem to think it is. I'm amazed with 'this exercise is better than that one'. Some people do sport specific training at the gym, where you're movements are no use to them, some like myself have had injuries which prevent me from doing certain movements. I realize that you're a kid and think the routine your gym teacher or football coach gave you is the bomb, but I will bet that if you should keep it up for lets say more than 3 years, that that will change.

I've never had a personal trainer, but the ones at my gym seem pretty good and flexible with their newer clients. There is no strict regiment of exercises I see repeated from client to client, and I usually hear them always ask for feedback like 'how did that feel, is that weight ok, did you feel that exercise work that area?' This to me is what a personal trainer is and should be about, not someone regurgitating some basic routine of compound movements over and over again.

[DJSTARER]

OP:

for the same reason they don't have their clients push a sled around the parking lot: it's not palatable for 90% of their clients. The real problem is how the fitness industry markets itself. Nothing pulls fat of someone faster than high rep DLs/Squats and interval prowler pushing. The problem is, the client will want to puke the first few times they experience these things. Unless the client has actual will power and intrinsic motivation (which they don't, because they've hired a trainer), they won't come back.

I train at a gym that markets itself for extreme training. When 40 year old mom comes in and trains with us, she knows she is not being BSed around. Everyone at our gym is focused and serious. I'm not saying this to be better than thou, only to show what proper marketing and a serious environment will produce. Our gym does not have a dominant demographic. Some PLers, some BBers, some teen athletes, and a bunch of bad ass moms and dads getting their blood pressure and bf under control using the best methods available. No mirrors, no machines. Just squat racks, platforms, sleds, kettle bells and rowers.

In addition, I see many PTs calling out "Safety" as their main concern. I can understand that, but if you can't teach a proper squat or DL, then you should reconsider your profession.
/thread

[Keltron]

but if you structure it right. After youve put them through the really affective exercises , the isolations can really kill it at the end, so don't completley forget about them.

-Dan

what is the "it" that you are hoping to "kill"?

[Adam182]

I think it comes down to the way people want to be trained. I have seen personal trainers pushing guys/girls to there limits in a session. And I have seen personal trainers taking it easy on others. I think it comes down to what the client wants. You can't force a client to do something they don't want to do. This isn't Biggest Loser where they are forced to do certain techniques and have no say in the matter. The client can choose to do something or not do something when it comes to training they are paying for. If they are unsatisfied with the training they are receiving than its the responsibility of the client to inform the trainer they want to be pushed harder and they want to try something more advanced.

[spikeglue]

Excuse me, this is BodyBuilding.com. Are you seriously unaware of the fact that the majority of pro bodybuilders use machines and isolation exercises?

Very few pro BB'ers squat, bench or dead. This isn't powerlifting or pro football. Machines and isolation exercises are simply better for targetted hypertrophy.



Not a chance. I have been strongly defending and advocating machine isolation training on the net for years. A search through my post history will reveal it.

The likelyhood of getting the general public to adopt a "meat and potatoes" routine based around basic compounds is absolutely nill. This should not even be open to debate. It is a total non-issue.

As a PT, you can either use machines and train people according to bodybuilding principles or you can turn in your balls and become one of the Bosu-BS trainers. Those are your only options. Housewives and obese people aren't going to go anywhere near the big 3, and if they do, the effort will be wasted because they will make no effort to acquire the proper technique and progress in weight.

That is why when I clicked on the thread I expected to read a tirade against Swiss Ball trainers, which most of these threads turn out to be. Instead, I got a tirade against machines from some powerlifter meathead. Thanks, but take it to the PL section next time.

Your observations are not representative of the PT industry as a whole. This industry left machine based training behind in the 80's. All certifying bodies are now on board with the "functional" dogma and that is what the vast majority of trainers out there are doing. The fact that I endorse machine training does not make me a "typical PT", it actually makes me an outspoken minority in this field. NASM, ACE, NSCA, etc are all anti-machine, go read their curriculum.

Get your facts straight. Be sure that your stereotypes are accurate before you make them.

Good post. Most of our clients do the big 3 unless they are in a group program like circuit training or one of the instructor led cardio classes. I think one reason the PT industry gets away from a lot of the machines because they are expensive. There are 6 PT studios in my area that I know of and not one of them is fully equipped with commercial gym equipment. At our spot we have everything from the cage to the plate loaded rear delt. bodymasters lifefitness hammer strength and cybex and it was a significant investment. These days trainers want to make big money with a ball and some resistance bands.

[McJimmie]

Turning into an interesting debate on this thread !

From a commercial point of view (and I'm guessing most PTs are in the business of making money), the best exercise for the client is the one that they would like to do again !

I just do what my PT tells me

'Yes Boss'

[DHFX]

You guys realize this thread is about 2 years old and most of the posters in the first few pages including the OP are now banned right?

As for the subject matter, its pretty obvious the OP didn't understand the fact most clients of PT's arent going to be coming back for another session after they threw them under a bench, in a squat rack or over a dead lift set the first or second time out.

[McJimmie]

You guys realize this thread is about 2 years old and most of the posters in the first few pages including the OP are now banned right?

As for the subject matter, its pretty obvious the OP didn't understand the fact most clients of PT's arent going to be coming back for another session after they threw them under a bench, in a squat rack or over a dead lift set the first or second time out.

Yeah, but people are always ranting about not using the 'search function'. Can't have it both ways !

Exercise physiology has not changed in two years

[DJSTARER]

You guys realize this thread is about 2 years old and most of the posters in the first few pages including the OP are now banned right?

As for the subject matter, its pretty obvious the OP didn't understand the fact most clients of PT's arent going to be coming back for another session after they threw them under a bench, in a squat rack or over a dead lift set the first or second time out.

this is a great reason to make sure you and your client are on the same page to start with. The bond between expert and student is critical for the success of the student. Without trust, the student will be short changed. Why, as a client, would you want to be using anything less than the best modalities to reach your goals? Everyone needs to be honest with one another. Integrity will produce a clientele which sticks with you through the grueling sessions, and share their enjoyment when they hit a PR or bodyweight goal.

Remember: anyone can count reps/sets. A great trainer is a coach, a mentor and a source of motivation/inspiration for the client. The best trainers life and breath each set with their clients because they've been there. Sure, maybe 600lbs instead of 60, but a PR is a PR when it all boils down.

[DHFX]

Yeah, but people are always ranting about not using the 'search function'. Can't have it both ways !

Exercise physiology has not changed in two years

Yes, its a good topic to have at the front for now though the OP probably wont see most of the responses to his post... unless he's under another username that is.

Signed,

Under the radar 2nd usernames after banned first name.

[Al Shades]

bump

[lexinak]

Because so many of our clients cannot do those exercises with good form and safely. Also, many aren't interested in being a bodybuilder. They just want to be healthy.
Once they progress into the exercises, then we can add the exercises you mentioned. But safety ALWAYS comes first.... If they are an experienced lifter, then we may use those exercises, but the others we use have their place and reason.

That's a terrible answer. Putting people on machines that allow them to lift inappropriately heavy weights (or uselessly light weights) without the use of stabilizing muscles because they don't have strong stabilizing muscles is retarded.

You train the body to do something by doing it. You don't get better at squats by not squatting. I train the middle aged/older population and have some people who honestly can't bring their legs farther than hip distance apart or lift their arms up overhead when they come to me. So we stretch, and we use dumbbells, and we stand on one foot. We do things that are uncomfortable and unfamiliar and out of their comfort zone. And six to twelve months later, you wouldn't even recognize them!

Don't make the mistake of assuming that functional movements (bench, row, squat, deadlift, etc) are just "bodybuilder exercises." They mimic movements and strengthen muscle groups that everyone uses every day.

[rdferguson]

Wouldnt taking a bit of time to teach them how to bench press? deadlifts? one arm seated rows? barbell rows? and some other easier to learn compounds, be more beneficial in the long run? The benefits of isolation bicep exercises vs. full body compounds is pretty obvious, so why not take some time to teach them? IF there 300 pounds of fat...thats a different story. If they're not, teach them?

One other things, why do PTs, (not all, maybe about half) emphasize doing leg press and etc. as opposed to squats for someone like myself (talked to lots of PTs over time out of curiosity on what they'd say. And one even said to use the chest press machine as opposed to bench press because "you can get more weight up."

I speak for no one but myself, and on that note if you were to accuse me personally of this same issue, you'd have no leg to stand on. First movement I go through with 90% of people is the squat, presented as an assessment of their ROM. If I can't get them into a decent bottom position within 5min, then I'll give them a different lower body exercise that's easier to learn and have that as their main lower body strength exercise, while still using bodyweight squats in the warm up so that in time it can be one of their primary exercises. Likewise, if bench press is available, I'll teach it to them unless they have a health reason not to (eg high blood pressure, relevant injuries). I'll also often teach RDL's and bent over rows within the first couple sessions. If there's a legitimate reason not to do something, then I'll have them avoid it "for now," and work with something that may not be as great an exercise but is still useful for the same muscle groups/fitness goals, ideally a similar movement (eg a seated chest press instead of bench press for someone with hypertension, or dips to make it a little more functional).

Plus, there is a place for isolation exercises. It's more important to progress on bench press and pull ups than on curls and skull crushers, but iso's can be useful assistance exercises. I do have one client whom I do a couple sets of isolation work with after squats, bench/press, RDL's and pull ups, just as an example.

ETA: *looks up* Ahh crap, didn't realise this was such an ancient thread.

[KyleAaron]

ETA: *looks up* Ahh crap, didn't realise this was such an ancient thread.

Doesn't matter, mate. Stupidity is immortal.

[motraining]

Some trainers are using their own personal weight training programs to train clients. It takes experience to learn new techniques and exercises when in a training session. What I see a lot of times for example you have a trainer that is a Body Builder having clients do a lot of strength exercises with minimum caloric expenditure. The question is why not have clients do exercises that are going to burn more calories while building strength? A great example would be instead of doing a machine shoulder press why not do a lunge to a shoulder press? Its a total body exercise that burns more calories and builds more functional strength. Let me add that I am not taking away the great benefits of a machine shoulder press, just giving other options.

[WannaBeATank]

Because so many of our clients cannot do those exercises with good form and safely. Also, many aren't interested in being a bodybuilder. They just want to be healthy.
Once they progress into the exercises, then we can add the exercises you mentioned. But safety ALWAYS comes first.... If they are an experienced lifter, then we may use those exercises, but the others we use have their place and reason.

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but this just a no.

Isolation work is more dangerous than compound..

[WannaBeATank]

Some trainers are using their own personal weight training programs to train clients. It takes experience to learn new techniques and exercises when in a training session. What I see a lot of times for example you have a trainer that is a Body Builder having clients do a lot of strength exercises with minimum caloric expenditure. The question is why not have clients do exercises that are going to burn more calories while building strength? A great example would be instead of doing a machine shoulder press why not do a lunge to a shoulder press? Its a total body exercise that burns more calories and builds more functional strength. Let me add that I am not taking away the great benefits of a machine shoulder press, just giving other options.

I can't even response to this.

[SerpentHearted]

for any number of reasons.

a better question is why do chumps care so much about what other people are doing and pass judgement on things they know nothing about? and then keep irritating me with pointless arguments about it on the forum?

[EdgarAllanPoe]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

I use a preacher curl machine just about every bicep workout....what's wrong with that?\

my biceps > op's

[shredorded]

Nothing wrong with isolation AFTER compound movements. You probably know nothing about joint stabalization.

[fitnessbyjay]

Nothing wrong with isolation AFTER compound movements. You probably know nothing about joint stabalization.

Nothing wrong with isolation exercises before compound exercises either, if you do it smartly and are somewhat advanced.