why do personal trainers also have their "clients" use non sense exercises

[julesjordan]

That's fine. Just know that you're also disagreeing with people like Dorian Yates and many other pro BB'ers and coaches:

"Then, squatting on a Smith machine, I could position my body so it was much more isolated on the quads, less glutes and lower back involvement, didn't have to worry about the balance aspect. Actually my legs improved a lot when I was doing Smith squats, hack squats, leg presses ? I could isolate the thighs a lot more. So actually I used the Smith machine quite a bit for squatting." - Dorian

"Training with heavy loads and low volume (sets x reps) is the best way to get hard and strong, but not big. Muscular hypertrophy is generally a response to a high volume work output; therefore, by keeping the sets and reps low with heavy training, you wont have to fear getting overly big."
- John Berardi

"I'm sorry powerlifting coaches, your DVDs about how to shorten the distance the bar has to travel so I can bench more weight just don't apply much to me. I don't compete, and I only bench to build my chest, triceps, and other pushing muscles. I want a long range of motion because it makes me work harder and helps to build more muscle. - Chris Shugart"

"Ignore the critics, cables and machines build huge arms." - Contract Killer on BB.com

"Sorry performance coaches, but curling works, at least as far as bodybuilding is concerned. So do leg presses and several machine exercises. I get tired of hearing performance coaches bash training techniques and exercises that have built thousands of great physiques over the years. These exercises may not be "functional" or carry over to sports, but they build muscle, and that's good enough for the aesthetic bodybuilder." -Chris Shugart

"Exactly. But the young kids typically are going by heavier weights = huge muscles bull**** they get from others at school. Once a kid starts to put on some decent weight and attains a decent mind muscle connection is all about refining and using the weight properly. Not just piling more of it on."
-DiamondDelts BB.com Mod

"This AIN'T ninth grade and no one gives a **** how much you bench" - Will Harris

Let the truth be told: Going heavy with basic movements is NOT the best way to gain muscle.

Ok, everyone has their own opinion. I'm sure there are plenty others who differ
MOST bb'ers have plenty of other help anyways
You can have the best workout program in the world, but if the food aint there to support it, you LOSE

[Al Shades]

Ok, everyone has their own opinion. I'm sure there are plenty others who differ
MOST bb'ers have plenty of other help anyways
You can have the best workout program in the world, but if the food aint there to support it, you LOSE

Bodybuilders know more about proper nutrition than ANY other athlete, easily.

Pro athletes in the NFL still eat McDonald's, for chrissake. There is no comparison.

BB'ers have also been using low carb protocols to get ultra lean long before the general public and the medical establishment became aware of their effectiveness.
Another reason to take a page from bodybuilding in training ordinary individuals.

The only difference between a bodybuilder getting ready for competition and an average PT client wanting to lose weight is that the BB'er will go all the way down to 5% BF, whereas your average client only wants to go down to 15-20%. So you have two individuals who are traveling down the same road, only one is going a bit farther than the other. Why shouldn't normal people use BB'ers as examples? What other differences are there? Injuries? No. Athletes are known for competing with injuries. If you want it badly enough, you do what it takes to get there.

Drugs are a non-starter because there are natural teen BB'ers who go through the same process as the heavyweights in the IFBB. Besides, average people take drugs, too. They just take ineffective ones.

[dempsey_124]

its all about progression. if i had a client who never exercised before, but had no medical problemslms, i would start them of doing body weight squats with hands comming out in front for balance, then hand on chest to make it harder, then use dumbells, then use a bar, then use weights. this process could take say for example 3-4 months.
if i had a client who was scared or unconfident to do a squat or never done one this how i would start them off. by the end of it they would be amazed. this can apply to any exercise.
a client with medical issues would be different.

[squat4speed]

Most BBers I've heard of have a program based around DB's and BBs..look at ronnie's training!

[dshinton]

OK. Here I go with my late response...

First off, why do discussions like this always degrade into what bodybuilders do? How many clients do you have that are bodybuilders? I have none, as do most trainers. I know some trainers like the oversimplification that you should train the detrained with lighter weight bodybuilding routines. Have we not learned by watching people with a weeks worth of gym experience doing routines from muscle magazines and taking a dozen different performance supplements that this simplification will lead to injuries in the beginner?

Now back to the question at hand. Why do trainers use things like isolation exercises for the majority of their clients? In my opinion, they shouldn't be performing isolation exercises unless the client is adamant they want to target specific muscles or want to do a bodybuilding routine. At the end of the day, the client is the boss and if they think they need curls and I can't convince them otherwise... we do curls. Hopefully, I can convince them to perform standing dumbbell curls vs preacher or machine curls.

Now the next question, why not squats, deadlifts, bench press, or rows? Because most people will hurt themselves doing these right off the bat. I typically start my clients with cable rows and progress them to standing bent over rows when I'm confident that they have the balance, postural control, and sufficient lower back strength to not injure themselves. For squats, I start them out with body weight squats, then progress them to leg press, hack squat, and smith squat before they do a real squat in the rack. Again, its all about getting them to a point where they have enough balance, postural control, and strength to perform the movement without injuring themselves.

[skarotum]

agreed, not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder/powerlifter/even an athlete, some people just want to get into the gym to lose some fat and gain a little muscle, to get healthier. If ur training someone to be a BB,PL or for sports etc... then yeah you got to get them on those exercises. But other then that most people arnt even interested, so whats the point

I agree 100%. But from the original post, it seemed to be assumed we were discussing bodybuilding.

[dn27]

Haha, that's why I like the trainers at our gym. I don't use them, but they have old ladys squatting and pressing. They may not be using much weight or getting a full ROM, but they are still doing it.

Except for one trainer who puts like 5 useless excersises together to form one super-akward lift.

[skarotum]

Most BBers I've heard of have a program based around DB's and BBs..look at ronnie's training!

Yes, but what everyone is saying that seems to go waaaay over your thick skull repeatedly is that, MOST PT CLIENTS ARE NOT BODYBUILDERS!!!! Nor do they want to be. They are your average guy/girl trying to lose a few pounds and "tone" up(as the client likely phrases it).
Stop being so ignorant.

And seriously dude, don't do things because Ronnie does. And the pros do use machines. Obviously they don't put big glossy pictures of pro BBers on the front of Flex using the adductor machine. Why, because it is not dramatic. And it makes people like you think, "gee, Ronnie Coleman must not use machines then cause I've never seen it on the cover of flex, all he does is bench 250 lb dbs".

[Al Shades]

Everyone loves to talk about how "Coleman trains with heavy compounds" but guess what, he also does tricep kickbacks in his routine. He does leg presses and leg extensions. I am sure he uses plenty of machines just like every other pro BB'er. You seem him deadlifting and squatting in his videos because, to the uninformed, it looks more impressive.

Machine training isn't glamorous at all because all the "action" is in the mind-muscle connection. But it works.

Most BBers I've heard of have a program based around DB's and BBs..look at ronnie's training!

No. Most pro BB'ers will tell a 15 year old kid to base his routine around DB's and BB's. Then they'll go off and do a set of machine curls.

[unauthorized]

Everyone loves to talk about how "Coleman trains with heavy compounds" but guess what, he also does tricep kickbacks in his routine. He does leg presses and leg extensions. I am sure he uses plenty of machines just like every other pro BB'er. You seem him deadlifting and squatting in his videos because, to the uninformed, it looks more impressive.

So would you say the majority of his size comes from isolations, and not compounds?

[bigfrog]

So would you say the majority of his size comes from isolations, and not compounds?

I'd base it on roids. lol..

Honestly, all exercises have a beneficial side to them somehow. Just have to realize what they are. What muscles are used and how it's helping the person.

[Eltron]

I think back to something ole Vince Gironda said: 'What is the ideal for muscle growth when it comes to weight vs reps?: It's as much weight as you can lift as many times as you can lift it.'

Personally I have built my chest up with 'as much weight as I can lift as many times as I can lift it'; which makes the final set [5] about 1-2 reps if I'm lucky with about 170k for chest.

I treat almost all my 'size excercises' as warm ups for a set to failure: 1-2 reps, sometimes 3 if i''m phyched up enough.

Seems to work very well for me.

As for compound movements, I think they have their fixed place but can't be soley relied on for 'size'. For instance, triceps training requires isolation!!!

On the other hand, where I train there is an individual with phenomenal bicep and tricep size who trains so light one stops to watch him train as if he is lifting more than anyone else in the whole gym: because it's like 'how can he have arms like that when he lifts so light?'

Find what works for you by trying EVERY variable and paying close attention to the results [or lack thereof]!

Good luck with your training and hope this helps!

-Alan Eltron Barrell

[Eltron]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

isolation tricep excercises are a must for full tricep development, even size.

preacher curl machines have their place, they are not useless. for instance, many so called 'usless' machines can be effective for beginers or usefull when working around various injuries which make it difficult to train with free weights/or compound movements involving multiple muslce groups [one of which may be injured/giving trouble.]

furthermore, when time is a factor, one is often able to use a machine quickly.

they have their place and are not useless; even, I imagine, to pro bodybuilders.

Alan Eltron Barrell

[sargefit]

That is why I have a policy of essentially treating people like 5 year olds until they prove to me that they are responsible enough to be treated as adults. Doctors, lawyers, and other professionals do this constantly, and PT's ought to as well.

As I have said time and time again, most clients are pathetic when they come in and no idea what they want or how to get there. They are all over the place. You need to shut them up, sit them down, and tell them exactly what to do until they develop enough discipline to handle things on their own. Clients are fundamentally children and should be treated as children, even if they are 60 years old. This process must occur without them becoming aware of it.

1) Look to body composition, not body weight as the benchmark of progress

2) Recognize the critical impact that "time away from the gym" has on body composition by adhering to proper rest and dietary protocols

3) Calculate your macro's and calorie consumption and know your maintenance requirements so that you are not stumbling around in the dark with respect to your diet

4) Train to exhaustion on a regular basis. Sets should be taken to failure wherever possible. This is the only way to know whether you are using "enough weight", which is a typical newbie question.

5) Understand the principles of energy balance and use them. Recognize that you need a caloric deficit in order to lose weight and a surplus to gain.

All of these ideas are considered "radical" by Organized Medicine and other clueless bodies. Yet bodybuilders have been using them successfully for decades.

Al Shades Sir, you are (in my own personal opinion and experience) completely correct in all of the above. The voice of reason has arrived and been repped.

Safety safety safety - should come first. If training a client in the gym I always put beginners onto machines (I use them myself for certain exercises) for safety reasons, if they progress far enough and show they are compitent then they can move onto free weights for certain exercises (If they want to, a lot of clients do not). If training a home client then we do use exercises like bodyweight squats as usually that is all they can manage and most people do not have leg press machines in their living room. For a beginner a body weight squat is effective enough to start with.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[unauthorized]

I'd base it on roids. lol..

But the major increased food intake must be there, or nada

[unauthorized]

I think back to something ole Vince Gironda said: 'What is the ideal for muscle growth when it comes to weight vs reps?: It's as much weight as you can lift as many times as you can lift it.'

Personally I have built my chest up with 'as much weight as I can lift as many times as I can lift it'; which makes the final set [5] about 1-2 reps if I'm lucky with about 170k for chest.

I treat almost all my 'size excercises' as warm ups for a set to failure: 1-2 reps, sometimes 3 if i''m phyched up enough.

Seems to work very well for me.

As for compound movements, I think they have their fixed place but can't be soley relied on for 'size'. For instance, triceps training requires isolation!!!

On the other hand, where I train there is an individual with phenomenal bicep and tricep size who trains so light one stops to watch him train as if he is lifting more than anyone else in the whole gym: because it's like 'how can he have arms like that when he lifts so light?'

Find what works for you by trying EVERY variable and paying close attention to the results [or lack thereof]!

Good luck with your training and hope this helps!

-Alan Eltron Barrell

Muscle is built with food. Some people think muscle is built out of thin air. You can blast your tri's till they fall off, but if you're not eating enough, they wont grow

[bigfrog]

But the major increased food intake must be there, or nada

True on that too......

[julesjordan]

All the trainers i see at 24 hour fitness are NASM certified, and all they do is 10%machines and 90%bosu ball, balance, stability stuff........so yeah, SAFETY it is. Nobody wants to be the trainer that hurt someone doing a pullup right?

[Al Shades]

So would you say the majority of his size comes from isolations, and not compounds?

I'd say that a majority of his size comes from protein synthesis and the latter is just the result of a caloric surplus and anabolic assistance.

As we all know, what's necessary to trigger protein synthesis is microtrauma, and that, absolutely, can be caused by isolation movements.

But here's something else I believe: The bigger you get, the more effective compounds are. Because big guys have lots of padding and great leverages. A skinny guy trying to do compounds isn't going to get crap from them. You have to get big before you can lift heavy. And by "big" I mean simply that you need to fill out your frame, not necessarily be as large as Coleman.

Big guys also have stronger connective tissue and their bodies are better able to handle the stress of free weights and compounds.

[Eltron]

Muscle is built with food. Some people think muscle is built out of thin air. You can blast your tri's till they fall off, but if you're not eating enough, they wont grow

By the same token you can eat yourself silly without blasting your tris OR ANYTHING ELSE and NO MUCLE WILL GROW. this thread is about excercises and my message is about compound movements vs isolation, not nurtition!

'muscle is built with food'

GREAT! EAT ALL THE PROTIEN YOU CAN GET IN WITHOUT TRAINING AND AGAIN BY THE SAME TOKEN...

Did I make myself clear, little man?

-Alan Eltron Barrell

[SHOWTIME]

But the major increased food intake must be there, or nada

True on that too......

lol

Yeah because steroids and food makes someone a multi time winner of the Olympia.

[julesjordan]

nurtition! PROTIEN

WTF?

[nickmanzoni]

.................................................. ............................

I cannot fathom why this is being debated against a 15 year old.
If you don't know that any exercise: machine, freeweight, bosu, swiss ball, ANY EXERCISE that is exerted with muscle overload will stimulate a muscle to respond, then GET OFF THE DAMN INTERNET AND READ A PHYSIOLOGY BOOK!
I don't give a damn if you feel like pull-ups are the ultimate bicep exercise, flip off if you think that knee extensions are the ONLY quad builder on the books. Doing compounds in some respects can help you lose weight!

Let me sort this out for you guys: an exercise is a tool, how you USE the tool is what you're going to get out of it. I love isolation exercise, I love compounds.

If I have a client who wants FAT LOSS I don't waste their time doing one iso at a time for the hour. I have more respect for my job than that. (Side note: if you see a trainer ONLY doing front raises with a heavy client, stop the trainer and tell the client to get a new trainer, because the trainer doesn't care or isn't smart enough to figure out a shoulder compound) When I train clients who want to get more mass: I start with compounds and then taper off onto isolation exercises.

There is not an exercise on the planet that cannot be scaled down for even the most inactive client. Conversely, there is not a lift on the planet that can't be scaled up to make the mind muscle connection work to the limit.


Don't waste my time with stuff like this anymore.

[jamezgt]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

Fact is, not everybody like you can perform a squat, deadlift or bench press. You were sucked into the Internet and believed what was given to you. I'll admit that those compound lifts are great for mass, but the typical client doesn't want mass. In reality, most of the clients have some muscle imbalance that will alter their body mechanics.

If they are knowledgeable trainers, they would be using those "isolation" exercises to progress up to other difficult lifts. Do you honestly think a 50 year old sedentary woman can activate her glutes during a squat due to lordosis?

But you're 15, I'm sure you know more than me!

[bigfrog]

But you're 15, I'm sure you know more than me!

15 yr olds know more than anyone....Don't forget that..... Haha

[BrotherWolf]

I have read 10 times more ignorant statements from people 3 times his age on this board and all over the net.

X2
A lot of these replies to the OP shows exactly why PT's have a bad rep

now I think I'll just order the material next week and get the ACE or ISSA certification

[BrotherWolf]

Isolation exercises are not limited to just machines. There are other exercises done with DB's that isolate a muscle ie: concentrated curls

And I don't agree with saying that everyone needs to train like a bodybuilder to reach their goal. A power lifter trains like a power lifter, and endurance athlete ie: triathlete trains like an endurance athlete not a body builder. Aswell an older client who wants to better improve their balance for being able to perform daily tasks easier will not be training like a bodybuilder.

I'm not a big fan of machines If the client can do it safely then I use DB's to help build up their balance aswell. I just would never throw a client who's uncapable under a BB to squat. And working with a client for mutliple sessions on how to squat or deadlift just so they can do it safely is not going to keep them coming back. many people do not pick up how to do a squat in a couple minutes. If they are just starting to weight train then they will usually take hours to perfect.

Squat4Speed,
Just because you do not use isolation exercises does not mean that they're unaffective. Watch cutler or coleman train they will both use the bicep curl machine. Like I said isolation exercises can also be done with DB's. I'm pretty sure big ronnie didn't get big Bi's from taking steroids and doing rows all day. The DB curls he does (isolation exercise) I think have a little bit to do with it, aswell as the other iso exercises he's doing. O yah and the roids-they help a little

Best answer so far..

[BrotherWolf]

what types of machines? LOL, you talking nautilus?

Sorry, but i just did a youtube search on ronnie coleman, and everything he did was with bb's and db's. He benched, squat, and deadlift. Pretty much nothing but compounds

Maybe he has a vid of using machines that i missed other than the leg press

Ronnie Coleman was also a powerlifter before he became a BBer

[testi1969]

The first thing we do is a fitness assesment to determin the routine and goals for the individual. Leg presses are the same thing as squats your working the same muscles... Basically its all about making the client happy, safe and reach thier goals. Goals can ranges into hundreds of different reasons the client wants to achieve.

[BrotherWolf]

Leg presses are the same thing as squats your working the same muscles...

Can I use your quote as my signature??