ALCOHOLICS: RECOVERY & FITNESS (Serious Only Please)

[boathead]

A.A. seems to have been helpful to many of you who've tried its approach. But where would someone go who is an atheist?

Please don't mention 'tough love' or treatment centers run by CAC III types.

aa has successfully helped a gazzilion aetheists...me included. the higher power stuff simply, to me, means humility: being right sized, that i am no better. or worse. than anyone else. don't make too big a deal out of it.

there is a saying: take what you need, and leave the rest.

[dbx]

aa has successfully helped a gazzilion aetheists...me included. the higher power stuff simply, to me, means humility: being right sized, that i am no better. or worse. than anyone else. don't make too big a deal out of it.

there is a saying: take what you need, and leave the rest.

I think Joed might have been asking for someone else (I hope ). Nevertheless, his question was not only valid, but it has been largely ignored and/or blown off (imo) by well meaning souls here who don't or cannot understand that the religious part is a deal killer for many seeking help. "Take what you need and leave the rest" doesn't work for all situations. If you don't like porno...you don't sit through a movie just because the credits and cinematography is impressive . The religious don't seem to grasp how it's possible not to be able to simply overlook religion, let alone, be insulted by its very presence for some. I'm going to leave it at that. I didn't open the links, but I suspect SR800's links will be secular in nature, as I've picked up on a recent post or two he's made recently. There's a place for everyone.

[boathead]

I think Joed might have been asking for someone else (I hope ). Nevertheless, his question was not only valid, but it has been largely ignored and/or blown off (imo) by well meaning souls here who don't or cannot understand that the religious part is a deal killer for many seeking help. "Take what you need and leave the rest" doesn't work for all situations. If you don't like porno...you don't sit through a movie just because the credits and cinematography is impressive . The religious don't seem to grasp how it's possible not to be able to simply overlook religion, let alone, be insulted by its very presence for some. I'm going to leave it at that. I didn't open the links, but I suspect SR800's links will be secular in nature, as I've picked up on a recent post or two he's made recently. There's a place for everyone.

i understand the secular angle...initially i would have loved to have had a chance to explore that myself, yet found a.a. to be the only game in town. i tried smart recovery, and was able to strengthen my befogged early sobriety understanding, but to find a meeting proved ultimately impossible. anything i got was from online forums or literature. no face to face meetings. perhaps in urban areas in might be different, but in vermont, no such luck.

i found that i needed face to face meetings. it helped on many levels. and as such i was left to pursue a.a. and n.a. interestingly, i am not a druggie, but the na's welcomed me with open arms.

and while i cannot speak to most areas of the country, i can speak to my experience here in vermont and in new york city and long island: a.a. is decidedly NOT religion based.

there are many roads to recovery. the key is to get on one of the roads and quit dancing around. the level of destruction left in a drunk's wake can be astounding.

[chodan9]

there are many roads to recovery. the key is to get on one of the roads and quit dancing around. the level of destruction left in a drunk's wake can be astounding.

QFT!

[dbx]

there are many roads to recovery. the key is to get on one of the roads and quit dancing around. the level of destruction left in a drunk's wake can be astounding.

Agreed, but we all know that a drunk will find any excuse to continue dancing . And this is why I interjected, to focus on how serious this issue is from the addict's perspective (if they're secular).....which is nothing like the perspective you have once you break through.

[boathead]

Agreed, but we all know that a drunk will find any excuse to continue dancing . And this is why I interjected, to focus on how serious this issue is from the addict's perspective (if they're secular).....which is nothing like the perspective you have once you break through.

which is why it's the only disease (not looking for a disease v. non-disease argument) which must be self diagnosed, sad to say. loved ones...doctors...employers...they all told me i was a drunk, but what did they know. turns out, quite alot.

i think it is virtually impossible to cookie cut a perfect program for someone. there will always be, at least initially, something objectionable to the drunk. especially if they are still in their cups, in which case everything will be objectionable.

[chodan9]

I have talked to many who objected to the spiritual aspect of the program not because they were of a secular nature, but because they felt that they were too religious and the spiritual aspects of the program conflicted with their religious beliefs.
Sad to say many people have to just go out and hit a new bottom. Mine was pretty bad, but it could have been worse, I am just grateful I didn't have to wait another 20 years to hit it.

[dbx]

I have talked to many who objected to the spiritual aspect of the program not because they were of a secular nature, but because they felt that they were too religious and the spiritual aspects of the program conflicted with their religious beliefs.

Umm...yes, lol. This is the very subject that I thought I was talking about. Then again, your wording is somewhat ambiguous, so.....

[SR800]

Yes, dbx, from the Atheist perspective, the 12 step disease model is simply not compatible with our paradigm of reality. I do not argue religion or spirituality on forums. I feel we have much more in common than we have differences and seek to build upon our shared beliefs than dwell on what separates us. It is certainly reasonable to agree that there are many roads to the same destination, as well as many archetypes of that destination. If we reach a place where we are healthy and happy then we are all better for it.

[biggaz]

We need to pull Biggaz a little tighter into our web. Sobriety is a personal decision and not a collective effort. So we need to talk to you from a sober "Bodybuilders" viewpoint rather than a social or a spiritual one. That could be what is unique about this thread.

You were drawn in here....why? You know deep down you are an alcoholic and you are curious if others still drink (and smoke...I will tie that in) and progress in this muscle building endeavor? That is your call to make. I can tell you that Bodybuilding and alcohol do not mix well....oh yes, there are some casual drinkers in here with an occasional New Years drunk...but they too are not getting it. One of the functions of your liver as a male is to keep your Testosterone and Estrogen levels tipped towards being a male. When the liver is busy fighting alcohol the Estrogen wins. Oh chit you are thinking...it gets worse. Alcohol simply kills many of your B vitamins so vital to your well being. You are living in a poisoned state. And your smoking shrinks the cappilaries that feed your muscles (and makes you stink, hardens your arteries and F's up your lungs).

It's obvious you want to be a Bodybuilder and add some mass to that 171 pounds. So why do it with chains tied to your ankles??

So Biggaz hang in here with us...we need you. You can bring in some light as you progress and share your journey.

When I make it to the Stage at the 2010 Over 70 Nationals I will be 30 years sober. Dayum....that sounds good. But for now I am happy that I did not drink or use yesterday.

Baldie

Thanks Baldie, this has given me further encouragement towards where I want to be. To be truthful, I've been playing around with weights for a few years now. Sure I've trained hard and eaten clean, but without an aim, a goal.

A few months ago, I was diagnosed with spinal stenosis and wondered for a while how much I'd be able to do back in the gym. It was a time for a lot of thinking.

I followed a lot of journals around that time, of people who were competing, who had a goal.

After the go-ahead from the chiro and physio, and actually with their encouragement, I decided that yes, I want to compete. 2010 if I'm ready, year after if I'm not.

So I'm starting to count calories, reading more and starting to understand a little more. It's early days but I do understand that alcohol is a barrier that has to be removed, that there is no room in my life for it anymore.

OldSuperman started a thread a good while back about "working out or training." Guess I'm not working out anymore, I'm training. ;-)

For me cigarettes are going to be harder than alcohol, but they have to go too.

Many thanks Gaz

[tatdawg]

the thing i have to keep telling myself is not one drink not one swallow no matter what not ever. if i don't take that first one i am good to go. it is still a struggle for me at times and i guess it always will be. i view this from a christian perspective. i view alcohol as a demon. when i take a drink i am letting a demon loose inside of me and lose my conscience and common sense and bad things are bound to happen. i pray to my lord and savior jesus christ for the strength to fight this demon. but as a rule for people trying to beat a addiction they should do whatever it takes to get sober and stay that way. christian based, aa or anything that works for them.

[eddied27]

the thing i have to keep telling myself is not one drink not one swallow no matter what not ever. if i don't take that first one i am good to go. it is still a struggle for me at times and i guess it always will be. i view this from a christian perspective. i view alcohol as a demon. when i take a drink i am letting a demon loose inside of me and lose my conscience and common sense and bad things are bound to happen. i pray to my lord and savior jesus christ for the strength to fight this demon. but as a rule for people trying to beat a addiction they should do whatever it takes to get sober and stay that way. christian based, aa or anything that works for them.

Good post tat! I do the same myself by reminding myself that it's not beer #6, beer #20 or vodka/tonic #6 that gets me drunk.

It's #1 in all cases! The moment I take that first sip of that first drink it's all over and I've heard far too many stories in the halls about how this disease (which I choose to see it as) doesn't always have a revolving door. Once you go out, you may never make it back in.

I still get down on my knees right out of bed and thank my higher power to do the best I can for today and help to keep me away from a drink or drug. If I make it, before I lay my head down I'm back on my knees thanking my higher power for another day of sobriety.

KISS

[chodan9]

Umm...yes, lol. This is the very subject that I thought I was talking about. Then again, your wording is somewhat ambiguous, so.....

Mine is?

[eddied27]

The beauty of sobriety is it doesn't matter what keeps you sober as long you're sober. Whether you follow the AA traditions, Rational Recovery, the church or your pet dog Prince, we all have one, singular common goal in mind: don't drink!

I find all too often in the halls that newcomers get so caught up in the "God" thing. Common comments vary from "I can't follow it. It's too spiritual" or "I don't believe in God." The idea of "God" is one of your own choosing. If you choose to define God as God or your family or some other "higher power - power greater than ourselves" then that is your choice.

Again......one common denominator between us all: DON"T DRINK......FOR TODAY!!

Very simple program when broken down into it's simplest form. I have never met, experienced or heard of an emotion that can kill you. As a result, I don't need to drink over anything that comes my way: good, bad or ugly!

I always save that drink for tomorrow anyway.

[tatdawg]

The beauty of sobriety is it doesn't matter what keeps you sober as long you're sober. Whether you follow the AA traditions, Rational Recovery, the church or your pet dog Prince, we all have one, singular common goal in mind: don't drink!

I find all too often in the halls that newcomers get so caught up in the "God" thing. Common comments vary from "I can't follow it. It's too spiritual" or "I don't believe in God." The idea of "God" is one of your own choosing. If you choose to define God as God or your family or some other "higher power - power greater than ourselves" then that is your choice.

Again......one common denominator between us all: DON"T DRINK......FOR TODAY!!

Very simple program when broken down into it's simplest form. I have never met, experienced or heard of an emotion that can kill you. As a result, I don't need to drink over anything that comes my way: good, bad or ugly!

I always save that drink for tomorrow anyway.

great post

[joed]

Thank you all for some well-informed comments to my question about atheists:

...Sobriety is a personal decision and not a collective effort. So we need to talk to you from a sober "Bodybuilders" viewpoint rather than a social or a spiritual one...Baldie

And for those who don't lift, from a sober viewpoint of whatever they're interested in doing, right? Not social primarily, nor spiritual. Thanks Snake, you always bring an experienced perspective to a discussion.

...Nevertheless, his question was not only valid, but it has been largely ignored and/or blown off (imo) by well meaning souls here who don't or cannot understand that the religious part is a deal killer for many seeking help...The religious don't seem to grasp how it's possible not to be able to simply overlook religion, let alone, be insulted by its very presence...

Right on target Kev. As an aside, whenever I'm in contact with someone who sees themselves as a very devout (insert religious preference here), I ask "Which of the gods are yours?". A less narrow look at the world and at the history of religions sometimes can lessen one's zeal, if only momentarily. George Carlin was a master of this technique in his comedy.

...there are many roads to recovery. the key is to get on one of the roads and quit dancing around. the level of destruction left in a drunk's wake can be astounding...it's the only disease which must be self diagnosed

Astounding, indeed. Thank you.

Agreed, but we all know that a drunk will find any excuse to continue dancing . And this is why I interjected, to focus on how serious this issue is from the addict's perspective (if they're secular).....which is nothing like the perspective you have once you break through.

By "break through" Kev do you mean seeing what you're doing more clearly, and in a larger context, that involves others who are affected by your actions? Or what?

Yes, dbx, from the Atheist perspective, the 12 step disease model is simply not compatible with our paradigm of reality...

Thanks for the links Blake.

...it's not beer #6, beer #20 or vodka/tonic #6 that gets me drunk. It's #1 in all cases! The moment I take that first sip of that first drink it's all over...KISS

I was on a very lowfat diet forum recently Eddie where the mod said "To say a little bit (of a certain type of fat) won't hurt me is the most deadly fallacy anyone can believe". Same for booze it seems.

I want to thank each of you for your replies, they've widened my understanding of the convoluted issues involved in this problem behavior.

[dbx]

By "break through" Kev do you mean seeing what you're doing more clearly, and in a larger context, that involves others who are affected by your actions? Or what?

I meant it as..... Once you've become sober (atheist or not), you can see religion as being a stupid obstacle to let stand in your way if it meant leading to sobriety. As opposed to.... forgetting that it's easy to think of religion as a stupid obstacle when the person trying to get help perceives it as a real issue. As proof of this, I simply offer the words of eddied27;

"I find all too often in the halls that newcomers get so caught up in the "God" thing. Common comments vary from "I can't follow it. It's too spiritual" or "I don't believe in God." The idea of "God" is one of your own choosing. If you choose to define God as God or your family or some other "higher power - power greater than ourselves" then that is your choice."

In other words, it's a well known hindrance to those who have already made it to the other side, but it's also apparently somewhat dismissed as being trivial after you get across the road. Sure, it's trivial after the fact, but not to those standing in the doorway thinking about coming in.

Maybe it wasn't worth spending so much time trying to explore. but I'm also quite certain that many souls won't come back into a hall if sufficiently turned off by the religious aspect (if present) the first time they they enter with hesitation.

[BigDaddy33]

When I first got into the program I thought about my "Higher Power"/ I do believe in God as I was raised Catholic and still am, I guess. My relationship with God is one of "We don't mess with each other" I do my thing, he does his thing. I'm new into the program and believe I need to strengthen my realationship. Im not going to force it though, when it comes time, Im sure ill realize it. The seed has been planted. I did'nt drink today, all the other stuff will work itself out. I DID'NT DRINK TODAY!!!!!

[Baldiewonkanobi]

I have the feeling that we have a bunch of lurkers in here....and to them I say welcome brothers and sisters. The 12 step programs will tell you that admitting and facing your addiction is the first and hardest step.

The gift of sobriety is already yours. And for the posters in here...ours. And yes, it is experienced one day at a time.

It seems only moments ago when I would pull up in front of my home yet late again (not having crashed my car or getting a DUI) and having forgot to call my wife. I would peek in the front window to make sure she was in the back of the house then quickly enter and head for the fridge to grap a breath and stink hiding beer. "Hard day honey, got so tied up I forgot to call?" Then down the hall to pee...my God is that blood in my urine again? By some miracle I was bringing in a nice paycheck so my hours in the bar and toking alone in the car were never suspected. My blackouts came just before I turned 40. Within a year there I was sober and inside Chino Men's Prison doing a 12th step meeting and thinking...why am I the visiter here?

If this thread continues over time I will share the gifts of sobriety with you. They are simply F'ing amazing.

Baldie

[biggaz]

I did'nt drink today, all the other stuff will work itself out. I DID'NT DRINK TODAY!!!!!

Congrat's, one day at a time.
Me neither ;-)

[chodan9]

In other words, it's a well known hindrance to those who have already made it to the other side, but it's also apparently somewhat dismissed as being trivial after you get across the road. Sure, it's trivial after the fact, but not to those standing in the doorway thinking about coming in.

very true

the mountain before you always seems larger than the mountain behind you.
the "God thing" seems insurmountable until you get past it, then you look back and think "I made that way harder than I had to". Still can be an obstacle for many.

[eddied27]

I meant it as..... Once you've become sober (atheist or not), you can see religion as being a stupid obstacle to let stand in your way if it meant leading to sobriety. As opposed to.... forgetting that it's easy to think of religion as a stupid obstacle when the person trying to get help perceives it as a real issue. As proof of this, I simply offer the words of eddied27;

"I find all too often in the halls that newcomers get so caught up in the "God" thing. Common comments vary from "I can't follow it. It's too spiritual" or "I don't believe in God." The idea of "God" is one of your own choosing. If you choose to define God as God or your family or some other "higher power - power greater than ourselves" then that is your choice."

In other words, it's a well known hindrance to those who have already made it to the other side, but it's also apparently somewhat dismissed as being trivial after you get across the road. Sure, it's trivial after the fact, but not to those standing in the doorway thinking about coming in.

Maybe it wasn't worth spending so much time trying to explore. but I'm also quite certain that many souls won't come back into a hall if sufficiently turned off by the religious aspect (if present) the first time they they enter with hesitation.

Excellent post Kev....serious!

To those of you that may have been to an AA meeting or two, there are two words that your constantly pelted with as a newcomer.

Keep coming!

This is the point that Kev reminded me of in what it was like as a newcomer. As someone sober 4+ years, I can look back now on AA and its traditions and "get it". As a newcomer, I had no clue so many can be turned off by what you initially see as a "God" focused program.

As a person standing in the doorway, I didn't have so much of a problem with the spirtiuality of the program as much as I had with all the slogans and constant barrage of what I thought then were "drunk-a-logs" by speakers. The word "indentify" was also suggested of me but I couldn't because I didn't lose everything like some, I wasn't "like them" or so I thought and "they" drank more than I did.

My bottom was my bottom is what I realized. I didn't have to lose everything to gain everything. I was blessed in that way. I also try to remain humble enough to know that I'm one drink away from not only losing everything but death. That's how I view it and try to view it daily.

The program is not for everyone but it can be for everyone if given it's due time. The spirituality aspect is one facet of a larger program IMO.

Keep coming!

[BigDaddy33]

Keep Coming Back!!!!!

[chodan9]

Keep Coming Back!!!!!

It works if you work it!


hmmm
sounds like my diet

[AK56]

11+ years here

Quit drinking and quit a serious drug addiction.

4+months nicotine free.
NO patches or anything.


I have been to so many treatment centers, halfway houses, jails, outpatient centers, councilors, AA and who knows what else.

AA was nice at the start now I kinda hate it. I go every couple years. I may look for a NA group for my next visit.

AA is not for everybody and it is defiantly not for me. I do suggest it at least for the first 60-90 days or so if sobriety.


JUST DO NOT ****ING DRINK!
It is a life style change. Many things will have to change in your life. Figure your priorities.


Tough it out. You all are strong and tough. **** break though and fight the urge. The liberation you will get is amazing.

Quit smoking as well. Don't let them AA folks think it is OK.

[chodan9]

Quit smoking as well. Don't let them AA folks think it is OK.

Not sure I understand that reference

[michredneck]

I have the feeling that we have a bunch of lurkers in here

and i would be one of them. im not one for posting much but figured i would chime in. been about 6 months for me after 15 years of heavy drinking. over that 6 months i have had a few beers. maybe once a month but the difference now is i can stop after having one or two opposed to finishing off that twelve pack or eighteen pack. for me i finally realized i hated the way i was and needed to change. i was heavier than i had ever been and was just plain lazy. i made the change from afternoon shift to day shift and figured it would be a good time to change my lifestyle. now 6 months later i have dropped 50 pounds, eating healty and feel better than i can ever remember. i still have another 15-20 pounds to lose before i attempt my first bulk but i am looking forward to it. now that i look back i am just thankfull that i never hurt anybody other than myself. and btw i was able to stop drinking under my own will power. i didnt even tell my wife or family i was quiting. i just did it knowing that i couldnt stand being the person i was.

[curt_james]

I'm not sure about in the states, but in the uk, AA has no religious base at all

I've heard the phrase "Let go and let God" but it was my understanding that "higher power" was determined by the individual. Still, it looks like the U.S. version has a religious base.

http://www.aa.org/?Media=PlayFlash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

This from the Wiki page: "Though AA itself was not deemed to be a religion, it was found to contain enough religious components (spirituality, god, prayer and proselytism) to make such coercion a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution. In September 2007, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that a parole office can be sued for ordering a parolee to attend Alcoholics Anonymous."

[curt_james]

Quit smoking as well. Don't let them AA folks think it is OK.

Not sure I understand that reference

I think it's a reference to AA meetings and Al-Anon meetings where people smoke like chimneys.

I'm looking forward to January 1, 2009 as it marks one full calendar year without alcohol. No alcohol during all of 2008. And just three beers in 2007.

Stopped drinking related to cortisol, actually.

"However, drinking too much has a far more damaging effect than you can predict simply by looking at the number of alcohol calories in a drink. Not only does it reduce the number of fat calories you burn, alcohol can increase your appetite and lower your testosterone levels for up to 24 hours after you finish drinking."

From http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/...ch/alcohol.htm

Not to say I haven't had difficulties related to drinking. Nice scar on my right forearm from playing Chuck Norris (punching a hole in plate glass) at age 17. And scars up and down my left forearm from another drunken escapade at age 35. DUI in 1997 although my BAC was "just" .11. The limit in Pennsylvania was .10 at the time.

That DUI worked to my advantage as I changed careers and am in a much better place financially and mentally after leaving my factory job which consisted of 12 and 13-hour work days followed by drinking with friends. Went back to school and was certified to teach in 1999.

I'm 46 now and don't miss drinking whatsoever.

No meetings here. Visiting this thread because my friend Al created it.

Wishing everyone a Happy New Year!

[dbx]

Quit smoking as well. Don't let them AA folks think it is OK.

Not sure I understand that reference

I think it's a reference to AA meetings and Al-Anon meetings where people smoke like chimneys.

^^^^

But it also shows a complete lack of understanding when it comes to addiction. "Them AA folks" figured out decades ago that trying to quit smoking and drinking at the same time was a losing proposition. In the words of a guy who had 15yrs sobriety at the time, "I never thought I'd say it, but cigarettes saved my life."

Man, people just don't get it. And to the 34yr old who just posted, "...but the difference now is i can stop after having one or two opposed to finishing off that twelve pack or eighteen pack"....... But don't get me started......

This is my last post in here. Good luck to all.