How much sleep is "adequate" sleep? Inquiring minds want to know...

[ptbrakefield]

I've read about "getting enough sleep", "at least 8 hours", etc. However, I rarely sleep more than six hours. My wife goes to bed at 9 and is still asleep at 5 when the alarm goes off. If I go to bed at 9 I'll be wide awake between 2:30 and 3:30 almost every morning. If I go to bed at midnite I'll sleep 'til 6ish. When I go to bed at 10:30 to 11 P.M. I'll usually wake up just before the alarm goes off. I've not slept more than about 6 hours in years. I don't feel sleepy during the day (well, everyone does on occasion, but not daily for me by any means). I don't want, nor do I feel I need, any sleep aids. Do any of you truly think I need to be worried about recovery rest?

[gbg]

5 hrs here.....I manage.

[woodlake]

If you don't need an alarm to wake you and your not feeling tired during the
day,everything should be ok.

[tonester]

You're pretty much describing my sleep habits. Been like that since I left my teens.

[ptbrakefield]

Me too... funny how we think we're the only ones who experience certain things in our lives...

I feel better about my recovery time now... including the short nap I take most afternoons (less than 30 minutes).

[blopid]

Her is the standard answer... "Everyone is different..." That aside though, 7 1/2 hours a night is about what is considered adequate... Sleep is truly essential for allowing your body to repair muscle... The fact is that most people sleep as much as they can and this is usually less than they should... What are ya going to do? Do the best you can...


Peace...

[BackwoodsGa]

i average 5 hours a night during the week but on the weekends..i try to get at least 8 hours to recouperate.

[BackwoodsGa]

If you don't need an alarm to wake you and your not feeling tired during the
day,everything should be ok.

i havent used an alarm in years..i got a natural alarm that always wakes me after bout 5 hours.

[jawter]

I've read about "getting enough sleep", "at least 8 hours", etc. However, I rarely sleep more than six hours. My wife goes to bed at 9 and is still asleep at 5 when the alarm goes off. If I go to bed at 9 I'll be wide awake between 2:30 and 3:30 almost every morning. If I go to bed at midnite I'll sleep 'til 6ish. When I go to bed at 10:30 to 11 P.M. I'll usually wake up just before the alarm goes off. I've not slept more than about 6 hours in years. I don't feel sleepy during the day (well, everyone does on occasion, but not daily for me by any means). I don't want, nor do I feel I need, any sleep aids. Do any of you truly think I need to be worried about recovery rest?

First thing to understand is that sleep is for the mind, rest is for the body. The amount of sleep that each individual requires varies based on age, health and lifestyle. On average healthy and active adults that lead balanced lives (balanced referres to having low stress) need between 5-7 hours of quality sleep. Young children and those with high levels of stress need on average between 8-10 hours of quality sleep.


If you regularly need to take midday or afternoon naps it may be a sign that you are not leading a balanced life. From what you wrote it would appear that you have a reasonably balance life.

[BrotherWolf]

I am in bed by 12-12.30am and up at 7am
If I had a really hard workout I can oversleep and feel like **** the whole day

[ptbrakefield]

I take a nap because I have to wait on my wife to get off of work and I need something to do... Lord I can sleep better in my car for a few, listening to sports radio, than I can in the bed... I'm going to start trying to get to bed earlier, at least giving me the CHANCE to get more sleep. I know it's important; I try to get enough.

[sevenleigh]

depends on you. each individual can get by with a different amount of rest. The Army says that a soldier only needs 4 hours of sleep to drive on and accomplish the mission. I have heard people say they only need 5-6 hours. I have heard some say that a person training hard and lifting heavy should get no less than 8 hours.
What makes you feel at your best? I like 6-8 hours personally and anymore than 8 makes my back hurt.
Keep in mind that your muscles only rebuild when you are asleep.

[SB_Stong]

I started my first 'real' job out of college not to long ago which requires me to be analytical and talk on the phone during much of the day. I learned anything under seven hours is noticeable diminishing to my performance.

When I was waiting tables and such over the last couple years I could get by on 5 hours for a long time.

[mikieson]

5 hrs here.....I manage.

Same here and many nights I dont get that many. Is it healthy? Dont know, but Im still alive "for now"

[_VL]

[EDIT: I pasted an article: "The Importance of Sleep on Muscle Growth" at the end of the current thread... it's more QUALITY VS. QUANTITY]

Earlier posters touched upon the good topic that it depends if you're looking at sleep only to address physical recovery needs or if you're also looking at it in how it effects "brain functioning" in what you're learning during training and how well you function during training. There's studies out there re: thoughts on which stage of REM sleep you must reach in order for "short term memory" to be converted to "long term memory." Off the top of my head, I am thinking of some studies where they tracked sleep and mental performance during the day (one study, for instance looked at college students and their scholastic performance in adding one hour of sleep each night, others looked at older folks like us).

In how sleep effects functioning, if my memory serves me well (that is if I got enough sleep -ha), there were studies about folks our age that found , based on lower average hours of sleep, many of us are walking around functioning at the same limited capacity as someone who has a slight (or greater) alcohol impairment (buzz).

I have to get back out to work in the real world right now but if you're interested in any of this info I could try to find some links later tonight for you when I get the chance...

[edit add]: I just jumped back in to give you a link to a short PBS Nova video that gives a very general intro into how sleep effects mental functioning and performance. It also has some good links on the site. Don't let the talk about fruit flies at the start of the video throw your off. I can try to find links to some of the more relevant studies that I mentioned above tonight if I have a chance. In the meantime, the video and its links may be more interesting... (note: the video is from 2007, so there have been more studies/info to support what they're saying since then)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3410/01.html

[_VL]

BR, as per your email ?, I added the link in my post and will simply edit when I get more... got to run back out into the real world...

[DanVanVliet]

BR, as per your email ?, I added the link in my post and will simply edit when I get more... got to run back out into the real world...

Hurry back we miss you already

[ptbrakefield]

I may have missed something in my original post, or at least not have pointed it out... I'd LOVE to get more sleep, but when I go to bed at a time that would give me 8 hours (or so) I almost always (90%) wake up after about 6 hours. I can't MAKE myself sleep more. That's why I said in the original that if I go to bed at 9 I'll be wide awake at 3 to 3:30 A.M. I went to bed at 9:30 last night and actually slept through the night. It happens occasionally but not very often. Of course, that might have to do with the extra hard workout I did yesterday after eating pizza and drinking a six pack on Saturday watching football.

[thor93]

i generally prefer around 8,give or take 15-30 min as ideal.so,7-1/2-8-1/2 pretty much.

sometimes i'll only sleep 5 or so and be unable to go back to sleep though.
that usually only happens when i sleep on the couch though.

i'll stay up for an hour or two,and then usually go back to sleep for another couple hours when that happens.

alot of truckers only sleep 2 or 3 hours.usually 4 is the most they can get.
i heard this one trucker say he never had any time to sleep.thats just insane!
there was this other fellow at another job i used to work at.he told me that he'd gone weeks without sleep.
that was at a factory job.i guess thats not as crazy as a sleepless trucker but still,really unbelievable and unimaginable
to someone like myself.

[_VL]

I may have missed something in my original post, or at least not have pointed it out... I'd LOVE to get more sleep, but when I go to bed at a time that would give me 8 hours (or so) I almost always (90%) wake up after about 6 hours. I can't MAKE myself sleep more. That's why I said in the original that if I go to bed at 9 I'll be wide awake at 3 to 3:30 A.M. I went to bed at 9:30 last night and actually slept through the night. It happens occasionally but not very often. Of course, that might have to do with the extra hard workout I did yesterday after eating pizza and drinking a six pack on Saturday watching football.

[EDIT: I pasted an article: "The Importance of Sleep on Muscle Growth" at the end of the current thread.. it's more QUALITY and timing VS. QUANTITY]

Hi! Quick work break... I totally understand. When I get a chance to pull up the stuff, I will try to focus on the info that was oriented about timing and quality of sleep (as a lot info does assume the given that life, other demands, habits, etc. force us to limit the amount of sleep). Some of the gist re:REM cycles I believe is in helping people to fall into a "deeper" sleep faster... how and why this is beneficial. As with everyone else, my body has an internal alarm clock limit to sleep, even on the weekends.

Studies and science of sleep seem to still be in pioneer stages right now and are very cool in what we might be able to learn in addressing our physical development (ex. workout recovery/repair), illness/health, mental functioning, coordination, etc.,etc... in learning more about the when, how, and whats of sleep. For instance there are cool studies going on about napping.

Gotta run....... keep up your thread and I will try to pull up whatever seems most helpful when/if I get a chance tonight as it is something I've only read into through my own questions/interest at times.

Quick PS: As to the question re:truckers and commercial drivers, I do remember a very cool link about what they found out about their sleep habits/effects and I believe it had something to do with what they were going to track for their licensing/clearance to drive large commercial vehicles...

Bye!

[snoack]

I try to get 8 hours every night. Can function quite well on as little as 5, I just prefer not to make it a regular habit. I like to sleep, but I never sleep in.

[BuckSpin]

I try to get my 8, but more typically its 6.5-7. I will say that since I made getting adequate rest a real priority my gains have been great! I'm training less but more intensely and let rest & food do its job.

"Eat, Lift, Sleep, Repeat"

[Marius_Ursus]

I've read about "getting enough sleep", "at least 8 hours", etc. However, I rarely sleep more than six hours. My wife goes to bed at 9 and is still asleep at 5 when the alarm goes off. If I go to bed at 9 I'll be wide awake between 2:30 and 3:30 almost every morning. If I go to bed at midnite I'll sleep 'til 6ish. When I go to bed at 10:30 to 11 P.M. I'll usually wake up just before the alarm goes off. I've not slept more than about 6 hours in years. I don't feel sleepy during the day (well, everyone does on occasion, but not daily for me by any means). I don't want, nor do I feel I need, any sleep aids. Do any of you truly think I need to be worried about recovery rest?

Mind you, I've never read this anywhere, but I have a feeling that maintaining your Circadian rhythms is more important than the amount of sleep you get.

[decatrender]

seems to be the magic number for me. I usually go to sleep around 9:30-10:00 and wake up just before the alarm at 5. I work out in the mornings and I usually have a 15 min power nap around 6 pm. It's the oddest thing my nap last 15 min on the button. Never over.

This morning I slept thru til 5:30. Stayed up and watched the Rays and Sox. Late for workout.

I think if you listen to your body and give it a chance you will get the amount that you need.

[Barry Bonds]

will guarantee you to wake up early and probably not go back to sleep.

If you feel rested, and don't get sleepy driving, at your desk, or sitting in front of tv or at a meeting, I'd say you're getting enough sleep.

[namtrag]

In bed at 10:30, up at 6:15, even on most weekends.

I know, I am an old fart.

[_VL]

The Importance of Sleep for Muscle Growth
Sleep Builds Strong Muscle Mass
By: Dr. Bill Misner Ph.D.


Sleep Is Important To Training Performance Gains

{_VL: This has some general intros into factors to consider in trying to trigger some of the deep REM small stages within your sleep..in sleeping less, it's more QUALITY+when VS. QUANTITY that counts}

You and your training partner carefully measure the optimal protein intake for the "max" in muscle growth response. You both take the exact same anabolic state-of-the-art supplements and follow the same "perfect" workout dictated by your aggressive, but prominent personal trainer. Your partner's gains are what you'd hoped for...what went wrong? Deep sleep patterns may mean the difference between big anabolic gains and none at all! Both bodily repair and anabolic growth occur only during quality rest, and when deep sleep patterns become routine. How many of us have been able to resist that nodding, drowsy, insistent call to sleep?

If we give in, what are we going to miss? What could we be doing instead? Even the most mature, health-conscious adults may, at times, view sleep as an unwelcome intruder into their work, play, or leisure activities. Time spent sleeping accounts for 27 to 35% of a person's lifetime; assuming a person sleeps 6.5 to 9.0 hours per day, this slumber time accounts for 166,000 to 230,000 hours over an average 70-year life span!

How long can a person go without any sleep? Based on small animal studies in which the subjects have been exposed to extreme sleep deprivation, scientists have estimated that the average human may not live past 10 days without sleep. Not as clear, however, are the exact physiological mechanisms resulting from sleep deprivation that ultimately lead to death. It has been suggested by some that the hypothalamus, which regulates several of the body's metabolic activities, is not able to control body temperature after being deprived of sleep for many days.

While lack of sleep can have dire consequences, adequate sleep provides only positive, healthful benefits. In a typical day, a person's waking hours are consumed trying to meet the many mental and physical demands encountered at every turn, as well as replenishing vital nutrients as they are being used up during these daily activities. In the hours remaining--during sleep--the body takes time out to rebuild and recharge, preparing for the day ahead.

Recuperation During Sleep Is Related To A Sensitive Built-In Biological Clock

Electrical activity measured in the brain during sleep indicates that healthful physiological changes occur in 90-minute periods throughout the night, which means that the active biological clock in a person is set to operate in a circadian rhythm of 90-minute cycles that repeats every 25 to 28 hours. This clock is set and reset according to the amount of natural daylight available each day, thus evening sleep begins later in summer than in winter.1

Losing sleep during any 24- or 48-hour period interferes with the essential and healthful cycle of physiological changes that occur during sleep and is detrimental to both physical and mental recovery. Recovery in subjects deprived of sleep for 24 hours has been measured at 72%, while recovery after a 48-hour period without sleep further deteriorated to a level of only 42%.2

Other clock-like rhythms occur between 3:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. and from 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., when our body temperature dips a degree or two and drowsiness results. We have all experienced this mid- or late-afternoon slump. In contrast, when body temperature peaks between 6:00 and 9:00p.m., we may become aware of a heightened sense of alertness. Then, as we tend to wind down from our daily activities sometime after 9:00 p.m., our body temperature falls again, and we are lulled into a state of drowsiness during which the brain converts low-voltage "beta" waves into higher voltage "alpha" waves. As these alpha waves are, in turn, converted to slower "theta" waves during what are known as sleep stages 1 and 2, the skeletal muscles relax, causing the "hypnic jerk" or "nodding" experience. When nodding off is not resisted or interrupted, the theta waves soon turn into even slower "delta" waves of the third and fourth stages of deeper sleep. During these stages, rapid-eye-movement {REM} sleep, dreams, and actual muscle paralysis take place. If, for some reason, muscle paralysis does not occur, the vividness of the dream state will physically draw the dreamer into an active state of sleepwalking or, worse yet, intense physical activity that will further break down exhausted muscle tissues already in need of repair.

Animal studies3 have shown that inhibiting the brain's ability to paralyze muscle during sleep results in the animals jumping around, growling, howling, and generally exhausting themselves while actively dreaming. During undisturbed sleep or slow-wave sleep, the plasma growth hormone (HGH) in humans is found to be at its highest levels.4

If the sleep STAGE process is interrupted, complete repair of soft tissues is impossible due to the resulting decrease or absence of HGH.

Quiet Please--Muscles are rebuilding!

Noise pollution has been shown to have a dramatic effect on a person's optimal sleep. Aircraft noise endured by those living in homes near airports can reach a level of 55 to 75 decibels inside the homes. Significant noise such as this has been observed to raise the adrenaline and noradrenaline levels of all those sampled during sleep, an effect which is detrimental to achieving normal, healthy, recuperative sleep.5

Exposure to high levels of noise during the day can also interfere with getting a sound night's sleep. Daytime noise pollution of 80 decibels or more tends to elevate both heart and respiration rates, which may further disrupt full-stage, recuperative sleep.6

Another enemy of a good night's sleep was found in a study in which the subjects received sleep in fragments. As discussed earlier, uninterrupted deep-sleep periods of at least 90 minutes are necessary for complete muscle recovery. When subjects were periodically aroused from sleep so as to prevent them from completing a full 90-minute period of sleep, muscle recovery was significantly hindered.7

When sleep is altered---reduced or extended---performance and mood are both affected. Two prominent researchers, Taub and Berger,8 observed altered sleep time by delaying, extending, or advancing each phase of slumber by a 3-hour time span. Their subjects suffered measurable declines in both performance and mood, in spite of getting enough total sleep. Achieving that elusive perfect night's sleep, then, would seem to depend upon enjoying a low-key day in a stress-free environment followed by seeking sleep at a routine time in a quiet, totally dark room. Another component of ensuring a good night's sleep is to maintain a balanced ratio of macro- and micronutrients.

Balancing Macronutrient Intake With A Precise Ratio of Micronutrients

What we eat and drink has a remarkable influence upon our sleep. Relatively small amounts of alcohol---as little as 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight---will suppress plasma growth hormone values as much as 75% when consumed just prior to sleep.9

Improper mineral absorption may also be a problem that contributes to poor sleep. Dr. James Balch10 suggests that when micronutrient ratios of calcium to magnesium are imbalanced or depleted, insomnia may occur. Most mineral supplements do not contain chelated minerals, but only 10% of non-chelated mineral supplements are absorbed in the small intestines, compared to 60 to 68% absorption of chelated minerals. A symptom typical of a calcium/magnesium deficiency is "blunt" arousal after only a few hours of sleep, or the inability to fall back to sleep when awakened.

A vitamin deficiency may also cause loss of sleep. Dietary deficiencies of vitamin B-complex micronutrients---specifically, B-5 and B-6---have been shown to disrupt sound sleep patterns.

Other foes of sound sleep are prescription medications, caffeine, obesity, thyroid gland disorders, or poor food choices.
Certain foods may not only reverse the replenishing effects of a good night's sleep, but they may create an undesired loss of muscle mass gains. Any food high in the amino acid, tyrosine, or its derivative, tyramine, will trigger the release of norepinephrine by the adrenal glands, which induces an alert waking state. Tyrosine- and tyramine-rich foods to be avoided at the evening meal include cheeses, beer, wine, broad bean pods, chicken liver, sauerkraut, chocolate, bacon, ham, sausage, eggplant, potatoes, spinach and tomatoes.

While certain foods should be avoided for the sake of a good night's sleep, all-out fasting can also interfere with sleep. Low glycogen stores in muscles resulting from excessive or prolonged fasting and high-protein/low-fat/low-carbohydrate diets may have a negative effect on the optimal sleep pattern.{_VL:?! oh well}

Nutritive, sleep-inducing foods eaten at the evening meal will assist in achieving sound sleep patterns. These foods contain high amounts of another amino acid, tryptophan, a precursor to serotonin, which in turn is a precursor to melatonin, the active neurotransmitter that makes us sleep. Foods found to be high in tryptophan include bananas, figs, dates, yogurt, oatmeal, turkey, tuna, and grapefruit. Complex carbohydrates, too, tend to enhance pre-slumber drowsiness if eaten in several small meals throughout the day.

Toward Beneficial Sleep

Some ergogenic experts, such as Dr. Michael Colgan11 argue for the healthful advantage of taking naps during the day between heavy lifting, "two-a-day" workouts. Others, such as Paul Moses3 warn against any interruption of normal sleep cycles enjoyed during the night in the absence of sunlight and noise. All sport researchers agree, however, that the more muscular or mental energy spent during the day, the greater the need for quality, continuous, multiple-stage sleep.

To ensure a healthful night's sleep, try these "Guidelines":
_VL: these are only "ideal" pointers, below, the info above may be more helpful re:various questions/insights

1. Plan on a daily transition from stimulating activities to less active, relaxing pursuits up to 3 hours prior to sleep---such as reading, listening to music, soaking in a warm bath, or taking a walk.
2. Two hours or less prior to bedtime, eat only foods that are rich in complex carbohydrates and tryptophan and contain a 2:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium in chelated form, augmented with high optimal intake of vitamin B complex (especially B-5 and B-6).
3. Avoid consumption of caffeine, alcohol, or foods rich in tyrosine or tyramine at least 6 hours before going to bed.
4. Avoid stimulating arousal from exercise, stress, or medications at least 6 hours prior to sleep.
5. See if you can synchronize your sleep pattern with available sunlight by developing the habit of going to bed when the sun sets and waking near the time when it rises. While this is not always possible, you can try to reinforce your basic sleep cycles (circadian rhythms) by providing a dark, quiet environment for sleep.
6. If you nap between two-a-day workouts, attempt to sleep for at least 90 minutes to complete a deep-sleep cycle for optimal recuperation and muscle mass growth during sleep.

There is no more a need for you to be the spectator, watching your partners-in-training grow and gain, while your progress plateaus in stagnation. As the above "Guidelines" for quality sleep are employed along with aggressive-progressive training, sound nutrition, and all the right supplements, anabolic gains may increase in direct proportion to the quality of sufficient rest and sleep achieved...Sweet Dreams!

[_VL]

Article References:
1. Honma, K. et al., Sensational variation in the human circadian rhythm: dissociation between sleep and temperature rhythm, Am J.Physiol., 265(5), 885-891, 1992.
2. Rosenthal, L. et al., Enforced 24-hour recovery following sleep deprivation, Sleep, 14(5), 448-453, 1991.
3. Moses, P.L., FAQs: self analysis, (trnutreq@dgys.com), 1997; an interpretation of Lavie, P., The Enchanted World of Sleep, Yale University Press, New Haven, CT, 1994.
4. Prinz, P.N. et al., Plasma growth during sleep in young and aged men, J. Gerontl., 38(5), 519-524, 1983.
5. Maschke, C. et al., The influence of nocturnal aircraft on sleep and catecholamine secretion, Schriftenr. Ver Wasser Boden Lufthyg., 88, 397-407, 1993.
6. Fruhstorfer, L. et al., Daytime noise and subsequent sleep in man, Eur J. Appl. Physiol., 53(2), 159-163, 1984.
7. Levine, B., et al., Fragmenting sleep diminishes its recuperative value, Sleep, 10(6), 590-599, 1987.
8. Taub, J.M., and Berger, R.J., The effects of changing the phase and duration of sleep, J. Exp. Psychol.[Human Percept.], 2(1), 30-41, 1976.
9. Prinz, P.N. et al., The effect of alcohol on sleep and nighttime plasma growth hormone and cortisol concentrations, J. Clin. Endocrinal. Metabol., 50(4), 759-764, 1980.
10. Balch, J.F. and Balch, P.A., Prescription for Nutritional Healing, Avery Publishing, Garden City, NY, 1990, 221-222.
11. Colgan, M., Optimum Sports Nutrition, Advanced Research Press, New York, 1993, 73-76.

[caligurlz]

deep 6-8hours of sleep is luxury...

[_VL]

deep 6-8hours of sleep is luxury...

That's perhaps an "ideal" as to length. I think the most important issue, however, regardless of length of sleep, is type and timing of sleep. The bits in the article are why muscle repair needs the small deep uninterrupted REM stages within your night's sleep (no matter how long you sleep) and some bits about what can help you to encourage these stages and what can hinder them (ex. certain foods,alcohol,mineral/vitamin needs,when you go to sleep/circ rhythm, etc.)

"quality vs. quantity"

I just went in there now and changed some font to bold for "cliff" reads.

I haven't had time yet to pull up bits from studies re:detailed specifics of the OP's questions. I'll try to when I have a chance...