broken humorous recovery (arm wrestling accident)

[stathis723]

Thanks, are you back in the gym now? What was your total time since the break to having no brace and just doing most normal stuff? Im not supposed to move my arm until next week when I see the doc.

gym? no way man.. its too early,2 and a half months since the break , i cant do 100% normal stuff, even though i can move my arm and do regular stuff i cannot hold weights, the bones are together but not 100%, u can see it in the x rays actually, it needs more time to heal completely, im going again next month. ( hopefully he tells me i can finally hold some weight with my arm )

I took off the brace 7 weeks after the brake, but i was extremely carefull with my arm in the beggining, right now it is stronger and i feel ok but since i cannot hold more then 5 lbs i cannot do Heavy work

[Truthdevoid]

I've been following this thread since my injury. Same as most of you, spiral fracture of the humerus from arm wreslting on Feb 26th. Got the surgery, metal plate + 10 screws. I had some nerve palsy as well. Recovery is coming along fine. I got most of my feeling back in my forearm and right above the elbow, though it's still a little bit numb. I was just wondering about pain i feel in my elbow when working out or making quick movements with my arm. I see a few of you are experiencing the same thing, so that's a relief, but does anyone know how long that will continue for or what is causing it? It worries me from time to time that it won't ever get much better than this. Also, my upper tricep has seem to grow back well, but the lower tricep (right above the elbow) seems to be completely lacking of any muscle. I'll post some pictures of my break and whatnot later when i have more time. Glad to hear you guys are making a solid recovery and wish all ya's the best of luck. It's been tough.

[mm55]

gym? no way man.. its too early,2 and a half months since the break , i cant do 100% normal stuff, even though i can move my arm and do regular stuff i cannot hold weights, the bones are together but not 100%, u can see it in the x rays actually, it needs more time to heal completely, im going again next month. ( hopefully he tells me i can finally hold some weight with my arm )

I took off the brace 7 weeks after the brake, but i was extremely carefull with my arm in the beggining, right now it is stronger and i feel ok but since i cannot hold more then 5 lbs i cannot do Heavy work

I gotcha. It will be more than 7 weeks before my brace comes off, maybe its taking me more time to heal or my dr is being cautious. I'm not supposed to move it yet, brace is locked at the elbow, but should be adjusted next week for movement. Sh*t this is taking a while, but I'm glad surgery wasn't needed.

I've been following this thread since my injury. Same as most of you, spiral fracture of the humerus from arm wreslting on Feb 26th. Got the surgery, metal plate + 10 screws. I had some nerve palsy as well. Recovery is coming along fine. I got most of my feeling back in my forearm and right above the elbow, though it's still a little bit numb. I was just wondering about pain i feel in my elbow when working out or making quick movements with my arm. I see a few of you are experiencing the same thing, so that's a relief, but does anyone know how long that will continue for or what is causing it? It worries me from time to time that it won't ever get much better than this. Also, my upper tricep has seem to grow back well, but the lower tricep (right above the elbow) seems to be completely lacking of any muscle. I'll post some pictures of my break and whatnot later when i have more time. Glad to hear you guys are making a solid recovery and wish all ya's the best of luck. It's been tough.

Good luck man, that's exactly why I didn't want the surgery, nor did my doc. Hope the pain and numbness subside for you.

[stathis723]

Actually i think ur Doc is being cautious, mine told me not to use it but to be extremely carefull, their telling me the same now though.. i got an appointment with him in 1 month, are u going to do any PT's?

[mm55]

Actually i think ur Doc is being cautious, mine told me not to use it but to be extremely carefull, their telling me the same now though.. i got an appointment with him in 1 month, are u going to do any PT's?

Oh yeah PT is on the horizon. I see my doc Friday for xrays. I have a feeling I'll be doing PT Once things look fully healed. It fells pretty stuck together and firm. I'm sure it's not 100% but it's definitely secure. I still have to wear the brace, but the doc said if things look good in the xray, I can take it off while relaxing at home, watching tv and stuff.

[Fedorov999]

1 year since my horrendous fracture now! In one way I can't believe it is a year already, it has certainly gone faster than I imagined.

Swimming after gym today it was feeling a bit stronger again, such slow progress with mine, the regaining of any strength just takes months and months, at least now I'm able to do silly things like carry bags of shopping and my heavy gym bag!

Suffering from pin/needles in my fingers the past 2 weeks, I think all the radial nerve damage I had is playing up a bit at the moment, only get the numbness when I'm trying to force my elbow to bend more and more...

[stathis723]

how are the rest of u fellas doing, how long it took u to ur arm to come to a reasonable size?...mine is more then a month without the brace and even though it has gained some size back it is still way smaller then the other one..
Shoulder hurts a bit also in some movements

[mm55]

1 year since my horrendous fracture now! In one way I can't believe it is a year already, it has certainly gone faster than I imagined.

Swimming after gym today it was feeling a bit stronger again, such slow progress with mine, the regaining of any strength just takes months and months, at least now I'm able to do silly things like carry bags of shopping and my heavy gym bag!

Suffering from pin/needles in my fingers the past 2 weeks, I think all the radial nerve damage I had is playing up a bit at the moment, only get the numbness when I'm trying to force my elbow to bend more and more...

Damn so I take it you had the surgery. How long did it take you from the break to begin light lifting again? I didn't have to go the surgery route, and even though I haven't started PT, I can lift some things of decent weight, maybe up to 5 lbs.

how are the rest of u fellas doing, how long it took u to ur arm to come to a reasonable size?...mine is more then a month without the brace and even though it has gained some size back it is still way smaller then the other one..
Shoulder hurts a bit also in some movements

I'm alright, still in my brace, actually going to the Dr. today to most likely start PT. I'm hoping to get the hell out of this brace soon. Been over 2 months in some sort of cast/brace on my arm. Movement in my arm is better, I can't lock it straight yet but I'm really close. I get some pain when I try to bring it up and touch my shoulder.

I probably can at the least start running again or doing some type of cardio and lower body bodyweight stuff. My left arm is a damn twig, there's barely any muscle on it.....acutally I should measure it...when I was healthy in the summer it was just over 17" probably like 14 now lol.

[mm55]

Starting PT Monday. I'm still supposed to be in the brace, but I've been taking it off routinely throughout the day, arm feels great...definitely healed but not 100% yet. Another Dr. visit in a week to talk about getting out fo the brace.

How long you guys do(ing) PT for? Mine is set now at 2x a week for a month. I don't think I'll need that much though.

[here4good]

my arm been taken out of the brace today!! my elbow and shoulder are stiff as fu*k, did you get the same? I gotta go physio now hopefully get my range of movement back soon. Arm is a twig too just gotta laugh about it done with the crying lol

[mm55]

my arm been taken out of the brace today!! my elbow and shoulder are stiff as fu*k, did you get the same? I gotta go physio now hopefully get my range of movement back soon. Arm is a twig too just gotta laugh about it done with the crying lol

Yeah mine was super stiff, when i was in the brace he had it locked at 90 degrees with setscrews, but I was told to take it out at night for just a few minutes and try and straighten it, just to get movement going.

Its worked because though i'm supposed to be in it now at work, I can easily go through the day with no brace, I can lift normal weighted stuff. Only pain I feel is when i lift my arm out to the side or out in front. Hope your PT goes well, mine starts Monday.

[Fedorov999]

Damn so I take it you had the surgery. How long did it take you from the break to begin light lifting again? I didn't have to go the surgery route, and even though I haven't started PT, I can lift some things of decent weight, maybe up to 5 lbs.

At least 6 months, my spiral fracture (pics on 1st page of this thread) was so bad that the bones took this long to start knitting together. I was eventually able to start lifting a 1.5kg dumbbell!!!

I'm now easily managing my 3kg bell and use the 5kg one sometimes.

In the gym I'm managing the Fly/Pecs on 20-25kg, chest press 25kg, LatPull 25-30kg so it's beginning to get a bit stronger.

Can I ask you guys a question please, today I bought:
Creatine (Ethyl Ester & Alpha Ketoglutarate)
Each tablet contains: Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride 1100mg and Creatine Alpha Ketoglutarate 200mg
MET-Rx Supreme Whey powder supplement

I was recommended taking something to help build the muscle up in my arm and a guy I see in the gym has a similar length scar to me from breaking his arm 4 years ago. He recommended I try some Creatine and a protein supplement so I got the above today but know nothing about this kind of stuff!!!!

The MET-Rx it says to have anytime of the day so I figured as I don't eat breakfast much I'd have one as my breakfast when I get up just before I do a 30min exercise to get my arm moving each morning.

When I hit the gym at 5pm after work, should I be aiming to have a 2nd intake of this BEFORE or AFTER my gym - note that I'm no bodybuilder and still only doing very light stuff due to my injury.

The Creatine says to take 2 tablets on an empty stomach 30mins before your workout and two more immediately after the workout - that's a bit easier to manage

Thanks for any supplement advice!

[stathis723]

Starting PT Monday. I'm still supposed to be in the brace, but I've been taking it off routinely throughout the day, arm feels great...definitely healed but not 100% yet. Another Dr. visit in a week to talk about getting out fo the brace.

How long you guys do(ing) PT for? Mine is set now at 2x a week for a month. I don't think I'll need that much though.

i still dont know why the hell my doc dont put me on PT.... im 2 weeks away from 4 months since the break, have an appointment in 3 days with my doc to check my arm, ,last appointment was 1 month a go so idk how is the bone going
i havnt lifted much heavy stuff, sometimes i grab my little 35 lb brother with my 2 arms and my right arm feels fine, a little weak maybe, i avoid lifting him or anything with my broken arm

2 things im feeling that wont look really normal are, 1st when i do some stretching movements or if im in the bed and fully extend my arm, the way u do flyes, i get pain in my whole arm and hand, ive been thinking it is a nerve, maybe it is because i havnt used that arm too much, i will have to ask my doc about this one.

and also in a movement i do with my shoulder, for example when im sitting and got my elbows in my legs, if i do shrug my right shoulder i feel some weird **** in my upper back, some crak crak... i cannot explain it

[Fedorov999]

With mine being a non-union fracture, taking so long to knit back together I had to carry the weight of my arm and dead hand around for 6 months before I was able to put ANY weigth at all through it - I had tons of shoulder/movement problems and aches and pains.

Once I was able to do very light movements my shoulder gradually regained full movement and is back to normal I would say now, in fact one of my exercises I can only do on my broken arm as my shoulder is now stronger than the other one!

I'm sure any shoulder problems you've got will slowly remedy themselves once you are able to start doing more movement and some weight.

I've got numb fingers and pins & needles in them right now as I type this, purely from trying to get my elbow to bend each day, I also get aches/pains down the forearm and of course the triceps, different each day but it is slowly getting better..... very long road, have to be very patient.

[mm55]

At least 6 months, my spiral fracture (pics on 1st page of this thread) was so bad that the bones took this long to start knitting together. I was eventually able to start lifting a 1.5kg dumbbell!!!

I'm now easily managing my 3kg bell and use the 5kg one sometimes.

In the gym I'm managing the Fly/Pecs on 20-25kg, chest press 25kg, LatPull 25-30kg so it's beginning to get a bit stronger.

Nice dude, thats longer than me, I guess mine wasn't as bad. Keep up the good work.

i still dont know why the hell my doc dont put me on PT.... im 2 weeks away from 4 months since the break, have an appointment in 3 days with my doc to check my arm, ,last appointment was 1 month a go so idk how is the bone going
i havnt lifted much heavy stuff, sometimes i grab my little 35 lb brother with my 2 arms and my right arm feels fine, a little weak maybe, i avoid lifting him or anything with my broken arm

2 things im feeling that wont look really normal are, 1st when i do some stretching movements or if im in the bed and fully extend my arm, the way u do flyes, i get pain in my whole arm and hand, ive been thinking it is a nerve, maybe it is because i havnt used that arm too much, i will have to ask my doc about this one.

and also in a movement i do with my shoulder, for example when im sitting and got my elbows in my legs, if i do shrug my right shoulder i feel some weird **** in my upper back, some crak crak... i cannot explain it

Thats odd.. sounds like you still need PT though. I'm set for a month of it, and I had my first one this morning. Everything went well...I actually almost have my ROM back. They used heat on my elbow then some stretching and I was able to fully straighten it. I have to do lateral raises and other stuff to strengthen my rotator cuff, bi's, and tri's. It seems like it will come back quick.

My distil fracture wasn't a non-union, so I think things came back together nicely and now I just need to strengthen.

With mine being a non-union fracture, taking so long to knit back together I had to carry the weight of my arm and dead hand around for 6 months before I was able to put ANY weigth at all through it - I had tons of shoulder/movement problems and aches and pains.

Once I was able to do very light movements my shoulder gradually regained full movement and is back to normal I would say now, in fact one of my exercises I can only do on my broken arm as my shoulder is now stronger than the other one!

I'm sure any shoulder problems you've got will slowly remedy themselves once you are able to start doing more movement and some weight.

I've got numb fingers and pins & needles in them right now as I type this, purely from trying to get my elbow to bend each day, I also get aches/pains down the forearm and of course the triceps, different each day but it is slowly getting better..... very long road, have to be very patient.

yeah this sounds much worse than mine. I was in a dead hang for about 2 months, weighted cast with no movement. Hopefully I'll get out of my brace within a week, we'll see. The therapist said she wants me out of the cast as long as its healed enough so that I can regain my full ROM quicker. I'll update you guys with exercises and progress through my PT. Once again I didn't have a non-union or have to have surgery (only because of the location of the fracture - close to my elbow).

I was worried about the nerve damage or irritation, and I feel very fortunate that I wasn't effected as you guys were.

edit - and PS my therapist is a complete MILF lol.

[stathis723]

i think some heat might have done good to my elbow, right now my rom is 100% i think... i just need to strengthen up everything... got an appointment in 8 hours from now, i will see what he tells me

[bucknut22]

At least 6 months, my spiral fracture (pics on 1st page of this thread) was so bad that the bones took this long to start knitting together. I was eventually able to start lifting a 1.5kg dumbbell!!!

I'm now easily managing my 3kg bell and use the 5kg one sometimes.

In the gym I'm managing the Fly/Pecs on 20-25kg, chest press 25kg, LatPull 25-30kg so it's beginning to get a bit stronger.

Can I ask you guys a question please, today I bought:
Creatine (Ethyl Ester & Alpha Ketoglutarate)
Each tablet contains: Creatine Ethyl Ester Hydrochloride 1100mg and Creatine Alpha Ketoglutarate 200mg
MET-Rx Supreme Whey powder supplement

I was recommended taking something to help build the muscle up in my arm and a guy I see in the gym has a similar length scar to me from breaking his arm 4 years ago. He recommended I try some Creatine and a protein supplement so I got the above today but know nothing about this kind of stuff!!!!

The MET-Rx it says to have anytime of the day so I figured as I don't eat breakfast much I'd have one as my breakfast when I get up just before I do a 30min exercise to get my arm moving each morning.

When I hit the gym at 5pm after work, should I be aiming to have a 2nd intake of this BEFORE or AFTER my gym - note that I'm no bodybuilder and still only doing very light stuff due to my injury.

The Creatine says to take 2 tablets on an empty stomach 30mins before your workout and two more immediately after the workout - that's a bit easier to manage

Thanks for any supplement advice!

What you have seems fine. For next time, id say buy some creatine monohydrate powder, and for the protein try Optimum Nutrition 100% whey or even All the Whey Protein Isolate. Cheaper and just as effective if not more.

As for my recovery... its amazing seeing myself now, compared to where i was when I returned to the gym (2 months post surgery). I could barely bench 55 lbs ten times using a hand brace for my wrist that was suffering from nerve palsy, and now doing sets of 185. I still feel like any DB or cable curls with that bad arm sucks, but the pain that everyone here seems to be experiencing only seems to happen to me when I up the weight.

[mm55]

i think some heat might have done good to my elbow, right now my rom is 100% i think... i just need to strengthen up everything... got an appointment in 8 hours from now, i will see what he tells me

any update?

as for me I'm getting stronger doing PT. Lots of shoulder and tricep work with very light weight, 1lb DBs to 10 pounds in plates depend on the exercise. It's crazy how weak my triceps are.

[stathis723]

any update?

as for me I'm getting stronger doing PT. Lots of shoulder and tricep work with very light weight, 1lb DBs to 10 pounds in plates depend on the exercise. It's crazy how weak my triceps are.

the bones are better actually my doc said, he told me nothing about PT because the ROM is Fine i guess, up to how much weight are u holding?..
its 4 months already , even if they are not 100% i think they can hold a good amount of weight,i need to strengthen everything up , i hold sometimes my 35+ pounds little brother and feel my arm fine...

I will call my doc and ask him how much weight i can hold, i need to strengthen up everything in my right side.. its better then before for sure but since im not using my arm too much its still weak

[stathis723]

for me the thing is that i can hold weight but i dont know if it may be too much for my bone, thats the reason i dont put much pressure on my arm. Thats the good thing with the PT, the doc knows how much he can push it the arm..

have you asked your doc after how long can u be back in the gym?...

[mm55]

the bones are better actually my doc said, he told me nothing about PT because the ROM is Fine i guess, up to how much weight are u holding?..
its 4 months already , even if they are not 100% i think they can hold a good amount of weight,i need to strengthen everything up , i hold sometimes my 35+ pounds little brother and feel my arm fine...

I will call my doc and ask him how much weight i can hold, i need to strengthen up everything in my right side.. its better then before for sure but since im not using my arm too much its still weak

I carried around a 50lb DB in my basement for a bit, but theres no way i could lift it or move it around, just held it by my side. Good news my ROM is fully back, and normal things are getting easier since strengthening in PT. Its been 83 days since my break. I'm able to curl 20 lb DBs now but not for that many reps.

I told my PT I was going to start benching for tri strength, med grip and close grip. Probably the bar only though, at most maybe 10's on either side. I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything over 65 lbs right now.

PS I did one pushup last night lol. It was tough but I got it.

for me the thing is that i can hold weight but i dont know if it may be too much for my bone, thats the reason i dont put much pressure on my arm. Thats the good thing with the PT, the doc knows how much he can push it the arm..

have you asked your doc after how long can u be back in the gym?...

I did and that was like the middle of october, he said about a month at least and it's been about that. I'm going to start lifting again tomorrow, just extremely light, lots of reps to get a sweat. We've gotta take it very slowly coming back, epecially the weight increase. My PT said go really slow on adding weight, but add more and more reps on.

[poklop]

Hi, Here is my story:
Before that accident I was playing soccer and lifting weights. 15 weeks ago I was in pub and had armwrestling match. During that match, my arm snapped, so I went to hospital. I went on X-ray and my diagnosis was spiral fracture of humerus with large butterfly dislocated fragment. 3 days later I had a surgery.They took to me 1 plate and 10 screws. Fortunately i had no radial nerve palsy. For 4 weeks I was carring a plaster. When doc removed the plaster I can't fully extend my arm in elbow. 8 weeks after surgery I started habilitation. I was going on rehabilitation for 4 weeks and after that I can extend my arm in full ROM. 8 weeks after surgery I was at doctor and ask him when i can start lifting. He said that my arm isn't healty yet and we take an appointment 8 weeks from that, and then we will see. It is about 10 days to this appointment and I am very curios what he tell to me. I feel I can start very carefully lifting, but I hold on doctor. When the doctors will remove the plates and screws from you? My doc said about 1-1.5 year after surgery.

[stathis723]

mm55 it seems like mine was more severe then yours, i called my doc today and he told me that it takes 6 months to fully heal and then i come back to the day of break, he actually told me 2 + 4 months untill i can workout but i understood 2 +2 =4 .. lol.. the funny thing is that he told me not to do any sports and i had been playing basketball the last week and felt fine.

can u post a picture of ur xrays?

[mm55]

mm55 it seems like mine was more severe then yours, i called my doc today and he told me that it takes 6 months to fully heal and then i come back to the day of break, he actually told me 2 + 4 months untill i can workout but i understood 2 +2 =4 .. lol.. the funny thing is that he told me not to do any sports and i had been playing basketball the last week and felt fine.

can u post a picture of ur xrays?

I was told the exact same thing by my doc, about 6 months til on the xrays, it all looks solid. He also said no contact sports, and that yes I can work out light in about a month (this was mid-october). I go back a week from this thursday so we'll see what it looks like, it's been a month since I've seen him. I've just gone over 3 months since the break.

I've been lifting light at home...benching around 60 lbs for 3 sets of 20 or so. Lots of tricep and bicep work with DBs and a bar. Just got into bentover rows and chest supported rows, actually doing those with 95-105 lbs. Curls are around 35-40lbs with a bar for 20 reps. My muscles are getting a bit of shape back in them...also I'm doing a lot of shoulder work given to me by my PT, that has made a huge difference in just everyday movement and strength. Let me know if you want me to scan this shoulder program and post it up here, it's helped me a lot. Most exercises I already knew, but just having the program there to do it all was nice.

Yeah I'll post a pic of the xrays taken at the hospital that night if I can find the CD from them when I get home from work.

[stathis723]

I was told the exact same thing by my doc, about 6 months til on the xrays, it all looks solid. He also said no contact sports, and that yes I can work out light in about a month (this was mid-october). I go back a week from this thursday so we'll see what it looks like, it's been a month since I've seen him. I've just gone over 3 months since the break.

I've been lifting light at home...benching around 60 lbs for 3 sets of 20 or so. Lots of tricep and bicep work with DBs and a bar. Just got into bentover rows and chest supported rows, actually doing those with 95-105 lbs. Curls are around 35-40lbs with a bar for 20 reps. My muscles are getting a bit of shape back in them...also I'm doing a lot of shoulder work given to me by my PT, that has made a huge difference in just everyday movement and strength. Let me know if you want me to scan this shoulder program and post it up here, it's helped me a lot. Most exercises I already knew, but just having the program there to do it all was nice.

Yeah I'll post a pic of the xrays taken at the hospital that night if I can find the CD from them when I get home from work.

ur doc told u u can do those exercises?.. damn mine wasnt that specific, if u can give me that program...

[mm55]

ur doc told u u can do those exercises?.. damn mine wasnt that specific, if u can give me that program...

Not my doc, the phys therapist. Aside from bench I was told to do the rest, bench I just tried myself with the bar only, and it felt good and easy. My muscle is really coming back quickly in the hurt arm. It's getting closer to my good one.

Yeah the program is only for shoulders, but it worked wonders over the past month bringing my arm back from almost unusable to not even thinking about it during normal activity.

I'll set a reminder on my phone for later when I get home from work. I'll try and scan it then post it up here so everyone can use it if they choose to. Like I said before it's nothing major, and you've probably done or know of the exercises, but just having a "program" helps bigtime.

[WhySoSerious?]

i cannot believe so many people have gotten this injury from arm wrestling
****. i knew it was possible but didnt know that it is this common

alot of humerus stories in this thread (lol sorry i couldnt help it i love puns)
but on the serious tip, all the best in your recovery bros

[Fedorov999]

13+ months for me now (thanks for advice above Bucknut) and on Wednesday in the gym I conquered my latest goal which was to be able to hold the pull-up bars and just take my feet OFF the floor and hang for a few seconds - pretty scary letting my body weight pull on my arm like that but I've done it!!!

I've also increased most weights in the gym this past week, I'm now doing 35kg on the Lat pull, Fly/Pecs. Finally starting to get over a lot of the tricep pains I've had during my 1 year of recovery. Been in gym tonight, then played 2 hours of badminton with my arm, finding badminton (with a super light poly-carbonate racquet) is really good, it's getting the legs/cardio going and really good for learning fast reflex movement in the arm again.

My NEXT target is to be able to do ONE push-up on the floor without compensating my weight through the good arm

[stathis723]

13+ months for me now (thanks for advice above Bucknut) and on Wednesday in the gym I conquered my latest goal which was to be able to hold the pull-up bars and just take my feet OFF the floor and hang for a few seconds - pretty scary letting my body weight pull on my arm like that but I've done it!!!

I've also increased most weights in the gym this past week, I'm now doing 35kg on the Lat pull, Fly/Pecs. Finally starting to get over a lot of the tricep pains I've had during my 1 year of recovery. Been in gym tonight, then played 2 hours of badminton with my arm, finding badminton (with a super light poly-carbonate racquet) is really good, it's getting the legs/cardio going and really good for learning fast reflex movement in the arm again.

My NEXT target is to be able to do ONE push-up on the floor without compensating my weight through the good arm

damn 13 months for recovery?.. was it that severe or something went wrong with the surgery?

[Fedorov999]

That severe
Saw consultant today most of the feeling is back in my thumb now but my last 3 digits go numb when I bend my elbow to try and regain full ROM. It's the ulnar nerve (at least not the Radial for a change!).

I have the option of surgery to release that nerve but I'm going to leave it a few months as I'm hoping that as my elbow gets better and better with bending it may ease itself, avoiding more surgery at all costs after losing my hand/wrist due to radial nerve palsy!!!