to all you know-it-alls who want to train w/o a cert.

[Danny213]

Name me one! Every respected trainer for the most part has CSCS after their name or some sort of degree in exercise science, kinesiology, etc...

Other than Louie Simmons, I can think of one who is not certified. Joe DeFranco, Mark Vestergan, Nancy Clark, Bill Starr, Bill Pearl, etc...

Kerry Kayes.

Owner of CNP Nutrition. Ricky Hatton's nutritionist. Runs practically every big Bodybuilding show in the UK (the guy you want to know if you're after a pro card) Good friends with most pro bodybuilders. Multiple UK Bodybuilding champion. Teaches seminars/UK football clubs on nutrition.

Believe me, he's knowledgeable and has zero certification.

He just doesn't need it, everyone in pro bodybuilding knows who he is. (including Phil Heath, who he is good friends with)

[Kiknskreem]

Mark Rippetoe has just recently relinquished his CSCS status after having gotten fed up with the NSCA.

[PVedda56]

Anyone Know or heard of John Black? He used to be a big time powerlifter, has a ton of records and crap. Two years ago he was listed as one of the top twenty personal trainers in north america. He became certified as a personal trainer even though he never took classes or passed a test. Back then they didn't care about tests. They knew that if he won all those comps and set all those records that he knew more than the average personal trainer. He's a good friend of my family and i go to his gym (blacks Health World)


Gains/Results>book smarts

[D1-FS-19]

Go ahead and train without a cert. Good luck getting a job, and God forbid you get someone hurt and get sued. Try convincing a judge you were qualified to train clients without a certification.

[Mr_Slim]

generally i've found the people that "know what they're doing" can be put into 2 groups:
* dumb bodybuilders who still train they way they used to back in the 50's and 60's, or the only education they did was watch Pumping Iron a few times
* dumb women who want to "tone up" so they do cardio and sets of 100 on the ab roller

now while both of those people may look good and have got results in the past (sometimes be it through sheer genetics, others through hard work and a bit of luck) they will soon find out in the big bad world of personal training that that information won't cut it.

i'm not sure bout the market in the USA, but here in Australia the PT market is still growing, and is really only applicable on mass to the higher socio-economic markets, eg. people who earn >$100,000p.a. Generally these people have no interest in bodybuilding, and have no aspirations to have massive guns or be able to bench double their bodyweight.

However most of my clients have the following common goals:
- Strengthen lower back
- Pin shoulders back after years of sitting at a computer
- Increase flexibility in hamstrings
- Decrease "sway back" after sitting slouched in chairs all day
- Pass the medical exam for their health insurace

Now, seeing as you've had "EXPERIENCE" in training, i assume you know all about back rehab, medical examinations, flexibility training and the like. Or would i be more correct that you know more about getting a wide back and cut abs?

Now while teaching people how to get a wide back and cut abs is all good and well, you'll find that most people don't have the simple genetics and / or experience to do this without A LOT of prior strength work. Long, boring strength work. No fancy split programs of back / bi's, chest / tri's, as these people don't even have the neural patterns to perform an exercise properly without throwing their back out. and even when they do it properly, they'll call you tomorrow and tell you their bum hurts after they did squats. What do you tell them?
"That's supposed to happen".
"Why??"
"ummm... because my bum always hurts when i do squats"
"oh. ok."

Don't get me wrong, experience is crucial. i've seen people with very little training experience become certified PT's and it's bleedingly obvious they're winging it when they train a client. Having the piece of paper is all good and well, but unless you've actually experienced what a client is going through when you tell them to do Squats followed by Walking Lunges, Deadlifts, Cleans and Glute Raises, then you can't really do your job properly can you?

So i guess what i'm trying to say is that no, the certification is not the be-all-and-end-all, having experience is just as important. however the amount of stuff i learnt when i was studying vs. what i THOUGHT i knew, and was just lucky to get away with (knee's over toes in squat, lat pull down behind head).... wow i could write a book on that alone. and having a client f**k up their neck after doing some dodgy lat pull down's is not something i'd want on my shoulders without cert / insurance

[stuck185]

Yeah yeah, you've been working out for years. You're experienced and you know everything there is about working out because your older brother has been reading Muscle and Fitness for years and you watched him working out as you were growing up. You yourself are in top physical condition so that means you can get anyone to that level.

Most people that think they know enough to train people have no clue about neuromuscular efficiency and misalignment of the body. You're gonna have people squat and not even notice that their knees are moving slightly inward. As you try to progress them by adding more weight, their glutes will get weaker while their inner thighs will get tighter and tighter. When you have someone do rows, you won't know notice that their traps and biceps are doing all the work. Their rhomboids will never develop and when you have them do heavy military press, their rhomboids will not activate and pull their shoulders back in the proper position which will put too much stress on their anterior delts while their teres minor and external rotators of the humerus stretch until they rips loose like a frayed rubber band. This is unless the front delts and/or bicep brachii doesn't strain first.

This might take a little time to happen under normal circumstances but the fact that you'll be having them do front delt raises and upright rows right after military presses but only having them do some half assed reverse flyes for their rear delts on shoulder day will surely speed up the process.

Do you still think you know what you're doing? By all means, go for it. Go ahead and screw someones body up for the rest of their life. The insurance you thought you'd never need will take care of everything.

Wow, I feel like an idiot now... I am kind of a gym rat, but I am studying for the NASM CPT. I really want to be a good trainer! But I don't really think my text book is teaching me all this kind of stuff!!!!!! They touch on neuromuscular efficiency, but really only scratch the surface... I already have a degree and don't think taking on more debt is an option right now. So I am just going to start with the cert and get as much experience as I can.

[Splume]

Im trying to decide if I should become certified (ISSA) or not. Does this career pay out financially? Especially in a lower populated area? Scott

[MVP]

Im trying to decide if I should become certified (ISSA) or not. Does this career pay out financially? Especially in a lower populated area? Scott

If you are concerned about pay, then you already failed before you started

[DaBurg3r]

I think trainers (and I am not one) need to be able to understand and assess their each of their clients needs, but also be flexible and patient. Not to mention knowledgeable and creative too. I've met some that were basically $40/hr spotters and others that really are worth the money spent.

[FLEX_09]

I have a question for you all, Who would you choose somone who has some fancy shinny cert saying that there a qualified PT and looks like any joe blogs on the street or somone whos been in the gym for years training with various partners and looks like an anatomy chart? Nothing can beat experience in my eyes, not even a fancy cert saying you are qualified because the day you walk out the door you have almost no idea what its gonna be like.

Just wondering

[FLEX_09]

Oh and btw he and all of his partners who he has trained with all look great with great symmetry, muscle seperation and all the rest that comes with a great body.......

[Simmo0508]

That's an irrelevant point. Most people who seek and are interested in buying personal training are not usually wanting the bodybuilder look. They could care less what their trainer looked like, as long as they did the job.

Most people wanna just lose some weight, learn how to do things, get over an injury, rehab etc.

A trainer's client base is mainly made up of middle aged mums & dads, and older people looking for certain guidance. Not bodybuilders and young men who wanna get da big gunzz!!1

These types of clients really could care less, and don't look at things from an aesthetics point of view.

[Keltron]

I have a question for you all, Who would you choose somone who has some fancy shinny cert saying that there a qualified PT and looks like any joe blogs on the street or somone whos been in the gym for years training with various partners and looks like an anatomy chart? Nothing can beat experience in my eyes, not even a fancy cert saying you are qualified because the day you walk out the door you have almost no idea what its gonna be like.

Just wondering

I never meant that a cert alone would make you qualified. You still need experience both on yourself AND on all types of people. I'm willing to bet that unless this Anatomy Chart guy has had any formal education, he won't know what to do with Mr Computer programmer who's been sedentary for the last 20 years and has all sorts of deviations and muscle imbalances.

If this joe blog person had a few years of experience under his belt, I'd train w/him.

[FLEX_09]

thats a good point...... lol OK YOU WIN!
I was only refering to bb itself, but yeah i agree with u on that boat.
I will crawl back into my corner and shuttup.......

[Keltron]

thats a good point...... lol OK YOU WIN!
I was only refering to bb itself, but yeah i agree with u on that boat.
I will crawl back into my corner and shuttup.......

No man, don't feel like you just got owned or anything. lol. You brought up a good question, a question that I myself would've asked 3 years ago. Don't ever feel bad for challenging someone's views. The worst that can happen is that you learn from it.

[FLEX_09]

No man, don't feel like you just got owned or anything. lol. You brought up a good question, a question that I myself would've asked 3 years ago. Don't ever feel bad for challenging someone's views. The worst that can happen is that you learn from it.

I was actually refering to the guy before you haha

[FLEX_09]

No man, don't feel like you just got owned or anything. lol. You brought up a good question, a question that I myself would've asked 3 years ago. Don't ever feel bad for challenging someone's views. The worst that can happen is that you learn from it.

But yeah i do agree with you aswell somone who dosnt have the same education with the nitty gritty part to training people with imbalances and things like that wont be as good as a certified trainer with the right education. But i still stand by my opinion on choosing somone who has been there to somone who only preaches, Obviously the guy who has a great body hasnt done it by chance he obviously knows what hes doing and the small things that come with creating a perfect physique. But i guess somthing inbetween would be good lol

[The Raw Body]

This is a funny thread because there are plenty of PTs out there with advanced degrees saying the exact same thing to simply certified PTs.

[timperry]

What i tend to find funny, is that there are some trainers out there who think they are better trainers, because they have a certain certification, or even a degree. It's like they feel entitled to greatness and should have a ton of clients because they spent so much money on education, it becomes a waste. Just because someone has a certain certification, does not make them a better trainer than the next trainer, ya know?

[GP2001]

Have to say I need to agree with the fact that just being certified doesn't necessarily mean that you are a good trainer. I personally know several people that are certified trainers, but they just memorized the material for the test and than completely forgot all of it, and don't know how to practice it properly. For example, I have a friend who is taking the same Exercise Science Program as me, last night I went to the gym with her and she asked " What ab exercise should I do to target burn the fat on my lower stomach?"... I mean, really? My response was " Do you ever pay attention in our classes!?!" haha Anyway, I don't think you can say that a certified person is better than a gym rat, or the other way around, it all depends on that individuals dedication to what they do, and the amount of time they spend towards learning more and learning practical applications of what they need to in order to be a good trainer. One can be better than the other, obviously a certification is better than nothing, but still is not a guarantee you are qualified to do the job.

[FreddyKrueger]

Wow, this post is gettin funny (and informational too, but funny none the less).

I get really cracked up when I hear people saying that if the trainer has a great body it means that he knows what he is doing. The problem here arises in the fact that 80% of your clients will not be interested in looking like you. Even if you had a body of a GOD you still need to have the KNOWLEDGE to help everyone with EVERY GOAL. I asked myself the same question before I started training. "Why are people training with a trainer that doesn't look to be in the greatest shape"?. Well being a trainer is completly different now. Its knowledge more than the look.

Now, don't get me wrong, a personal trainer should definitely practice what they preach. However, on the flip side, if I am training clients who want to loose weight and I (myself) have a different goal for my body it gets hard to practice what you preach.

This is where the knowledge comes in. Just because you look great doesn't mean that your clients want to look great, nor that should you train them the same way. What has worked for you might work for some, but very few that actually seek trainers. You need to know how to treat muscular diviations as well as postural diviation and how to correct that while training people for something you NEVER had to worry about yourself. Thats what separates professionals from gym rats. Thats why you get certified and once you start training you will realize that its a lot more responsibility for you to be correct of how you train your clients. Sometimes you don't even touch weights for a whole session.

Its not as black and white as many of you think. Its resposibility and in order to be a good trainer you have to know what you are doing. Don't EVER for a second think that you know everything even if you have degrees and certifications. This field is always expanding, and your typical gym rat is always doing his routine.

Hope this clears up the issue.

[MVP]

Just remember, you are a walking advertisement, and every single gym member will sit there and evaluate your appearance, behavior, and skill. The better your appearance, the more options you will have, ex: members coming up to you asking you questions etc.. which can lead to a new client

I hear people say " 24hr fitness has out of shape trainers ". Once you fall into that category, you've already lost, and you'll have to work so so so much harder to convince that client that you know what you are doing. They'll sit there and it'll flow from one ear out the other, as they wont take you seriously

I know for a fact, that i'm not going to ask an obese trainer how to get shredded. If a trainer doesnt even have the discipline nor motivation to help themselves, how can they help me

[FreddyKrueger]

Just remember, you are a walking advertisement, and every single gym member will sit there and evaluate your appearance, behavior, and skill. The better your appearance, the more options you will have, ex: members coming up to you asking you questions etc.. which can lead to a new client

I hear people say " 24hr fitness has out of shape trainers ". Once you fall into that category, you've already lost, and you'll have to work so so so much harder to convince that client that you know what you are doing. They'll sit there and it'll flow from one ear out the other, as they wont take you seriously

I know for a fact, that i'm not going to ask an obese trainer how to get shredded. If a trainer doesnt even have the discipline nor motivation to help themselves, how can they help me

Once again, I agree with you man.

however, ask yourself. What category do you belong to?? In your post you keep reffering to YOURSELF and how can they help YOU if they are not in shape. I understand what you are trying to say, but you have to look at it from the stand point of a sedentary person who needs to loose 50lbs. If an out of shape trainer has the knowledge and proof that he/she has changed peoples lives than why is it a problem??

Really, last time I checked every certification had a BOOK not a work out course. Thats just what happens.

However, I do agree with you. As a personal trainer I always want to look as good as possible and I want to achieve my goals. This shows my clients that I am commited and know how to overcome stuff that many other trainers can't. This, however doesn't mean that they lack knowledge.

Its a doublesided coin on this. I think both of us have valid points. Its just really up to the client. Looking good will always make you more attractive to a possible client. However, sometimes they will look at you and immidiatelly assume that they don't want to look like you. Clients are not that smart when it comes to fitness, but that what we have to deal with as well.

All in all looking good is something I would follow and I try to follow. However, I don't think it matters much to clients. They want to see your client picture of what you did with them. Now, thats what matters most.

[blapblapblow]

Just remember, you are a walking advertisement, and every single gym member will sit there and evaluate your appearance, behavior, and skill. The better your appearance, the more options you will have, ex: members coming up to you asking you questions etc.. which can lead to a new client

I hear people say " 24hr fitness has out of shape trainers ". Once you fall into that category, you've already lost, and you'll have to work so so so much harder to convince that client that you know what you are doing. They'll sit there and it'll flow from one ear out the other, as they wont take you seriously

I know for a fact, that i'm not going to ask an obese trainer how to get shredded. If a trainer doesnt even have the discipline nor motivation to help themselves, how can they help me

Funny, i workout at a newer 24 just built by my house. I see the same 3-4 trainers everyday. 2 girls, 2 guys. The guys are pencil thin, dont even look like they workout. One of the 2 girls is very fit, and she is the only 1 of the 4 that actually train someone

[jules_d1]

There are a few trainers at my gym who i dont see train much and basically to the SAME thing with each client...drives me crazy.


Anyway,

Having a cert. is just like having a drivers licence. You dont need one to be a good driver, and just becuase you have one it doesnt make you a good driver. Its basically a legal recognition to show that you are not completley useless at it (keyword completley)

[Kiknskreem]

There are a few trainers at my gym who i dont see train much and basically to the SAME thing with each client...drives me crazy.

Considering that perhaps 90% of all people in a gym at any time are novices, would it not make sense that the vast majority of them be trained similarly?

[jules_d1]

Considering that perhaps 90% of all people in a gym at any time are novices, would it not make sense that the vast majority of them be trained similarly?

I agree with you somewhat. I use the same key exercises with a lot of my clients but i could tell you EXACTLY what he will do next, for how many reps etc etc. Its not like he is training a specific type of client...its all sorts.

I feel there has to be some element of customisation with clients.

[-Ironside-]

I knew everything I ever needed to know without formal education just by reading the web.... or so I thought. After 10 years of training I went to school and realized that half the **** I thought I knew was wrong and what I did know, I didn't know it correctly.
The gym gets you the experience part but the education is what applies that experience into working knowledge and proper training.

For the certification, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get certified, I've seen certified trainers do stuff completely incorrectly because they still lacked the knowledge behind their certs.

[_XYDREX_]

To me experience in the field means a lot more than most certs.
There are a lot of subtle things that you will never learn at any course.

But the most important thing i would look for in a trainer is being able to apply own knowledge to him/herself.
Current shape doesnt matter that much, what matters is what he/she was able to achieve in the past using his/her own knowledge.

Having a cert. is just like having a drivers licence. You dont need one to be a good driver, and just becuase you have one it doesnt make you a good driver. Its basically a legal recognition to show that you are not completley useless at it (keyword completley)

For most ppl reading this forum, the definition of a good trainer will be quite different than that what most gyms will be trying to employ. After all we are more serious than your average membership holder, so it is a different ballgame alltogether. Most ppl who join the gym arent all that motivated, so avoiding injury will be high on the list. That means avoiding things that require too much skill & concentration even though they may be the most productive when done properly. Forget about subtle tricks, chances are they'll never get that far. Most gym business (including personal training) come from a mass of ppl who join, are serious for a few months then fade away. Then get ready for the next batch etc.

[Armed&Dangerous]

Let Me make it easy for You Yanks to Understand lol.
If You were Sick would You go to a MD / Doc with a Uni Degree or would You go to a Bloke who hanged around the Hospital a Lot and new a bit ??????
You do the Maths ........
As a Personal Trainer Myself since 1990 I Have done more courses than I can remember and think it is My duty to My clients to Have and mantain My knowledge on all things pertaining to My profession . Having said that I learnt More practical and usefull stuff on a two week YMCA couse in Uk in regard to Personal training and working in the industry than 3 years at Uni.
If I were looking for a Personal Trainer I would expect the whole package , not just certs but a Full Rounded person who inspired Me in every way .