Overtraining, the facts.

[Passer]

Since there are so many questions on this subject, I've decided to clear some things up. First of all there is no one rule for overtraining. Everyone is different. Everyone's recovery abilities are different. The AVERAGE person needs about 9 days for a muscle group to recover (with the exception of biceps which recover a bit quicker). Most people do not allow enough time for their muscles to recover which leads to plateaus. If you figure out how much time you need for recovery, and you train right, and you EAT, you will continually see improvement. Most people who train have trouble being objective rather than subjective. Instead of analyzing themselves they tend to compare themselves to others. Bodybuilding is OBJECTIVE.

There are a few variables that effect recovery
1) Steroids - If you take steroids, your recovery capabilities will be greatly enhanced
2) Creatine - If you take creatine your recovery capabilities will be enhanced
3) Nutrition - If you are eating right/enough you will take less time to recover and vise versa.
4) Intensity - If you are training with very high intensity you will need more time to recover and vise versa.

[PSUPOWER]

Originally posted by Passer
Since there are so many questions on this subject, I've decided to clear some things up. First of all there is no one rule for overtraining. Everyone is different. Everyone's recovery abilities are different. The AVERAGE person needs about 9 days for a muscle group to recover (with the exception of biceps which recover a bit quicker). Most people do not allow enough time for their muscles to recover which leads to plateaus. If you figure out how much time you need for recovery, and you train right, and you EAT, you will continually see improvement. Most people who train have trouble being objective rather than subjective. Instead of analyzing themselves they tend to compare themselves to others. Bodybuilding is OBJECTIVE.

There are a few variables that effect recovery
1) Steroids - If you take steroids, your recovery capabilities will be greatly enhanced
2) Creatine - If you take creatine your recovery capabilities will be enhanced
3) Nutrition - If you are eating right/enough you will take less time to recover and vise versa.
4) Intensity - If you are training with very high intensity you will need more time to recover and vise versa.

Good post..

[Jesin]

Originally posted by PSUPOWER
Good post..

bump

[massmatters]

lets not forget that overtraining has just as much to do with the CNS. even if you're allowing enough time for your muscles to recover, you may not be allowing enough time for your CNS to recover which will cause you to overtain.

[Passer]

Your CNS recovers quicker than your muscles if you are of normal health. If you have problems related to your Nervous system, then you should take that into consideration.

[massmatters]

actually it's the other way around. your muscles on the post part recover within 78hours, it's your CNS that requires the lengthy recovery times. hence overtraining has been shown to be linked to the CNS and not the muscles.

[Passer]

There is no fixed rate at which muscles recover, and complete muscle recover certainly does NOT occur after a mere 3 days. If you worked a single musclegroup each week (which would eliminate the need for your body to recover other muscles) then 3 days MIGHT be reasonable, but who works one muscle group only?. If you have a healthy CNS, your nervous recovery occurs at a much higher rate than your muscle recovery.

[massmatters]

here's what I'm trying to say:

M:upper
T:lower
W:upper
T:lower
F:upper
S:rest
S:rest

= 'possible' muscular overtraining

M:chest
T:back
W:legs
T:shoulders
F:arms
S:rest
S:repeat

= 'possible' CNS overtraining

I'm trying to show that there's two sides to overtraining.

[Passer]

I don't understand what you are trying to say...I don't recommend training musclegroups consecutively without a day of rest between each...I personally work each muscle group once over the span of 11-12 days...

[massmatters]

you may not train this way, but that's how many people do it and overtrain.

[Passer]

Thus, my post.....

[anon4564]

does this apply to all types of workouts? I am a beginner and my workout plan is to do all muscle groups one workout in about an hour and do that 2 times a week. Should I change this plan?

[Passer]

I would say def. change that routine.

Try this:

Day 1 Legs
Day 2 Rest
Day 3 Chest
Day 4 Rest
Day 5 Back
Day 6 Rest
Day 7 Shoulders
Day 8 Rest
Day 9 Bis/Tris
Day 10 Rest

AND EAT EVERYTHING IN SIGHT! By the way, that was just a suggested split. Change it to fit you best. Good luck.

[massmatters]

I know. but the later workout that I posted gives an example of CNS burnout ( aka overtraining ). Even if your CNS is in "normal health" you can still overtrain. It is just as easy to overtrain the CNS as it is the muscles.

[Passer]

I agree that your CNS can be overtrained, but i do not agree that it is as easy to overtrain as your muscles. Your CNS is constantly recovering whether or not you train and is designed to stabalize rather quickly and effectively. Those who do cardio and lift or those who train on many consecutive days will eventually rundown their CNS, which is a large population of people.

[anon4564]

I'm really only technically proficient at about 6-7 compound exercises, which I'm all supposed to do on the same day, so I don't really know if I can spend a day on each part. In your plan, how long should each of my workouts be?

[Passer]

Your workouts should be around 30-45 mins each, no more than an hour.

[PSUPOWER]

Wow, you guys are taking this debate deep


Damn, I would love to see your reactions when viewing OLYMPIC lifting programs Cleanning, snatching and squatting 3/4 times weekly!!

Although, O'Lifting and BBing are two different sport's, obviously

[back2it]

Originally posted by anon4564
does this apply to all types of workouts? I am a beginner and my workout plan is to do all muscle groups one workout in about an hour and do that 2 times a week. Should I change this plan?

No you shouldn't change the routine UNTIL you stop making progress . You are a beginner and because of many factors you will not overtrain as quickly as others that have worked out for a period of time . The biggest reason being you probably cannot work your muscles with enough intensity to cause them to need 5-7 days rest before you work them again . It may feel like you are but in a year you will realize looking back that you were not working as hard as you thought .
Usually beginners can do almost any type or training routine for 3 to 6 months . When I starte training I did 3 fullbody workouts per week for over 6 months and made great gains . Many others I have trained with experienced similar results .This "newbie" time to learn proper lifting technique , become familiar weight and machines , and learn the meaning of intensity .
Monitoring progress during this beginning part of you lifting
"career" will enable you to know when progress slowed or stopped . When you reach the end of the time of easy gains you will have to do what most if not all of us did . That being change your routine around so that the progress continues ie. training bodyparts less often with more intensity .
The main reason many of us overtrain is because we read too many stupid muscle magazines that tell us to train like the champs . What they forget to mention is in order to do that you must also "INJECT' streoids like the champs as well .

[FortifiedIron]

Originally posted by Passer
Since there are so many questions on this subject, I've decided to clear some things up. First of all there is no one rule for overtraining. Everyone is different. Everyone's recovery abilities are different. The AVERAGE person needs about 9 days for a muscle group to recover (with the exception of biceps which recover a bit quicker). Most people do not allow enough time for their muscles to recover which leads to plateaus. If you figure out how much time you need for recovery, and you train right, and you EAT, you will continually see improvement. Most people who train have trouble being objective rather than subjective. Instead of analyzing themselves they tend to compare themselves to others. Bodybuilding is OBJECTIVE.

There are a few variables that effect recovery
1) Steroids - If you take steroids, your recovery capabilities will be greatly enhanced
2) Creatine - If you take creatine your recovery capabilities will be enhanced
3) Nutrition - If you are eating right/enough you will take less time to recover and vise versa.
4) Intensity - If you are training with very high intensity you will need more time to recover and vise versa.

9 days? I think not. We are talking about mucles here, not your CNS. Its been shown that this is how long it can take for the CNS to recover after a elite or olympic weightlifting competition, due to CNS excitment. Physically the athlete's where ready to lift 72hrs after competition but mentaly they where not. To say a bodybuilder needs 9 days to fully recover a muscle is abstruse.


Kc

[FortifiedIron]

I left out a major point, the raise in excitment can increase power output by up to 15-35%.

You also might wanna discuss the 2 forms of overtraining Addisonic Overtraining and Basedowic Overtraining.

Kc

[Iron_BoLo]

PEOPLE SHOULD READ THIS THREAD 1ST BEFORE POSTING ANY BULLSH*T ABOUT OVERTRAINING--I"M TIRED OF PEOPLE POSTING ABOUT SH*T WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT BASED ON THIER OPINIONS

[FortifiedIron]

Originally posted by Iron_BoLo
PEOPLE SHOULD READ THIS THREAD 1ST BEFORE POSTING ANY BULLSH*T ABOUT OVERTRAINING--I"M TIRED OF PEOPLE POSTING ABOUT SH*T WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT BASED ON THIER OPINIONS

who are you talking too?


Kc

[massmatters]

hey FortifiedIron could you explain Addisonic Overtraining and Basedowic Overtraining for us? thanks.

[massmatters]

from drsquat.com

.................................................. ............
Overtraining: Overtraining is not exactly what it sounds like. It doesn't always mean that you have trained too much, but that perhaps you have trained for too long at the same level. Or, commonly, it can mean that you've overdone it with one or two exercises (e.g., too much weight, too frequently).

Conditioning yourself to respond in an optimal manner to every test of fitness and strength you can apply can be extremely rewarding...for a while. And then, as you continue to live up to your own expectations, you hit a stale period, a state of poor performance, and skid into a slump.

If three or four workouts in a row seem to be sub-par you may be in a state of overtraining. You may have let other factors, along with your leveling out of limit strength, influence the way you feel, react and train.

While the main culprit causing overtraining is overuse -- called "cumulative microtrauma" -- often there is no one identifiable factor. Overtraining can sometimes be attributed to several factors that converge at the same time.

You must be able to respond well to stress, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. Therefore, there are other, non-training related, elements that affect your conditioning, some in ways that you don't even perceive.

Problems in the following areas could have an effect on your training:

1. Academic/studies

2. Financial status

3. Family

4. Sexuality

5. Personality conflicts

6. Schedule conflicts

7. Poor training facilities

8. Monotony in training or lifestyle

9. Poor diet or sleep habits

10. Inadequate coaching

11. Lack of encouragement

12. Time-consuming or strenuous job that interferes with your workouts

13. Drugs

14. Poor coaching or personality conflicts with coach.

15. Inflicting too severe exercise stress upon your body. This is by far the MOST significant cause of overtraining!



It used to be believed that there were two different types of physical overtraining, 1) Addisonic Overtraining and 2) Basedowic Overtraining. Nowadays, however, it is believed that the symptoms for each of these two types are what gave rise to the names, and that both stem from a common cause, "cumulative microtrauma." This is just a fancy name for getting a whole bunch of tiny (mircoscopic in size) "tears" in your muscles and connective tissues through high frequency severe or improper training.

The first, "Addisonic" overtraining, is named after "Addison's Disease" in which the adrenal and pituitary glands are malfunctioning. Some of the symptoms of this form of training resemble the disease. This form of overtraining usually affects older or advanced athletes, and includes a slight overtired feeling, yet no increase in sleep needs, no weight loss, unusually low resting pulse rate, normal metabolic rate, higher blood pressure, but normal temperature and no psychological changes.

In "Basedowic" overtraining, like "Addisonic" overtraining, the name is derived from a disease ("Basedow's Disease") in which the thyroid function is too high. While no disease, Basedowic overtraining symptoms include: easily tired, reduced appetite and weight loss, need more sleep, fast resting pulse rate, higher temperature and blood pressure, slower reaction time, and inability to perform skill movements. This type is more commonly seen in strength athletes and explosive athletes such as sprinters, jumpers and lifters. It also occurs in young athletes, less advanced athletes, and in easily excitable ones.

Here are the signs to look for and the ways to monitor yourself for overtraining symptoms:



Avoiding Overtraining:



1. Develop a schedule that doesn't stress you

2. Develop a rational training program

3. Conform your workouts to cycle training principles

4. Vary your training methods

5. Sleep 8 hours a night

6. Practice sound nutrition

7. Use appropriate supplements

8. Make the athlete/coach connection and work together

9. Take 1 or 2 naps a day. A 20-minute nap is all it takes to rejuvenate and energize you.

10. Find a sports medicine clinic or practitioner who can help you monitor blood pressure, white blood cell count and other symptoms of overtraining.

11. Let logic rule your training -- not ego!

12. After workouts, whirlpool affected muscles. Then massage them vigorously for a minute or so. Use the "buddy" system for the vigorous massage.

[FortifiedIron]

Addisonic Overtraining is associated with diminished activity of the adrenal glands. It affects the parasympathetic pathways of the autonomic nervous system and is difficult to detect early, due to the absence of any dramatic sysmptoms. Some Variables are:

Blood pressure Diastolic increase to over 100mm Hg, during and after phsyical training

impaired coordination

Bodymass stays normal

Slight increase in tiredness

Your resting pulse is low

Body temp, appetite and metabolism are normal

Experience little to no muscle sorness

Training load stays normal

Recovery time is normal or slightly increased

Loss in motivation


Basedowic Overtraining which is associated with the thyroid hyperactivy, effects the pathways of the automonic nervous system and is calssed as the type of overtraining with its abundance of symtomps:

Increase in blood pressure

Coordination becomes impaired with increase in reactive timing

bodymass decreases

Tire easy

Sleep requirments increase

Resting pulse elevated

Body Temp increased

Appetite reduces

Metabolism alternaed, with increased tendency to sweat; abnormally increased breathing rate under stress.

Sorness mild to pronounced with stiffness and pain

Headaches, colds, fever blisters; prolonged recuperation

Recovery time increassed

Neverousness, poor motivation, inner unease, eventual depression



Kc

[WANNABEHUGE]

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
Addisonic Overtraining is associated with diminished activity of the adrenal glands. It affects the parasympathetic pathways of the autonomic nervous system and is difficult to detect early, due to the absence of any dramatic sysmptoms. Some Variables are:

Blood pressure Diastolic increase to over 100mm Hg, during and after phsyical training

impaired coordination

Bodymass stays normal

Slight increase in tiredness

Your resting pulse is low

Body temp, appetite and metabolism are normal

Experience little to no muscle sorness

Training load stays normal

Recovery time is normal or slightly increased

Loss in motivation


Basedowic Overtraining which is associated with the thyroid hyperactivy, effects the pathways of the automonic nervous system and is calssed as the type of overtraining with its abundance of symtomps:

Increase in blood pressure

Coordination becomes impaired with increase in reactive timing

bodymass decreases

Tire easy

Sleep requirments increase

Resting pulse elevated

Body Temp increased

Appetite reduces

Metabolism alternaed, with increased tendency to sweat; abnormally increased breathing rate under stress.

Sorness mild to pronounced with stiffness and pain

Headaches, colds, fever blisters; prolonged recuperation

Recovery time increassed

Neverousness, poor motivation, inner unease, eventual depression



Kc

So, if you have eaither of these, should you take a week off?

[massmatters]

you should take some time off. the longer you've been overtraining, the most time off you'll need.