Are box squats better than O lifts? 3 Week study to prove if they are or aren't.

[Fullback7]

Ever since I have been here one of the constant debates has been. Are o lifts more beneficial than box squats. In my personal belief ME & DE box squats are just as effective, and maybe even more effective than o lifts. Recently I have however become curious. Even though everything study that I have found done proves my initial theory to be true, as well as the opinions of other highly regarded trainer... I have still become intrigued to know through my own study. As of right now my vert, and speed has been kind of stuck. So here is my little experiment.....

My workout will continue as it is, with ME box squats coming up in my next 3 week cycle. Instead of DE Box squats that I would have added in going into the next cycle, I will be adding in the power snatch which has the highest power output of the o lifts. On monday I will record my vertical, broad jump, 10, 20, and 40 yard sprint times. I will continue recording my times twice every week for the next 3 weeks. I want to continue my workout just as it has been, but I want to add in the power snatch (4x3). So I know if something begins to change drastically I will know exactly where it is coming from. Any other ideas to make this study better?

[SlammaJamma]

N=1 ain't a study brah, it's anecdotal evidence at best. Anyway, I would do oly lifts with different levels of weight. For example, start with light power snatches, go to power cleans, and finish with a clean pull around 110% of your best clean. What is your form like? What do you squat/dead/clean/snatch?

[Fullback7]

N=1 ain't a study brah, it's anecdotal evidence at best. Anyway, I would do oly lifts with different levels of weight. For example, start with light power snatches, go to power cleans, and finish with a clean pull around 110% of your best clean. What is your form like? What do you squat/dead/clean/snatch?

Maybe I should have used... Independent self experiment. This is not anything that will go into an extreme depth, because I don't have the tools to do such things. This is a basic experiment with an added variable thrown in to judge the factors of what happens. Right now everything has been on a constant degree, so I feel that there is no better time to try something such as this than now. The reason I choose 4x3 is because I want to stay at a constant peak force, and the same circumstances that the box squats are under.

[wrestlingmattt]

The results will be very interesting. I am guessing you have been using DE squats for some time now with no Olympic lifts. If your speed and etc. improves these may be "noob gains" in a sense. While this may show Olympic lifts are beneficial, It can't prove they are better than box squats.

[scott_donald]

haha ye i was about to mention that...

god this is if it helps you in 3 weeks... nothing else...

one thing you have to remember training effect can buil up etc... 3 weeks is very short...

basically you are wasting you r time as far as an experiment is going...

but you may see benefit...

[Joseph61189]

I have always been a fan of box squats and will continue to be. Great information btw.

[SlammaJamma]

Maybe I should have used... Independent self experiment. This is not anything that will go into an extreme depth, because I don't have the tools to do such things. This is a basic experiment with an added variable thrown in to judge the factors of what happens. Right now everything has been on a constant degree, so I feel that there is no better time to try something such as this than now. The reason I choose 4x3 is because I want to stay at a constant peak force, and the same circumstances that the box squats are under.

Fair enough, it will be nice to see what happens.

[kevn594]

im interested to see the results. i think both are very good exercises and both can be used on DE lower body days for explosiveness. i wish there was an actual study with alot of people for a month or so though. still excited to see results

[Fullback7]

im interested to see the results. i think both are very good exercises and both can be used on DE lower body days for explosiveness. i wish there was an actual study with alot of people for a month or so though. still excited to see results

There actually have been a few studies that sort of edged on the notion of this, but didn't give out a clear answer since it wasn't a specific study of box squats vs. o lifts.

[DavidJr74]

I do both; Box Squats and Powercleans/ Split Jerks. Both helped my vertical jump alot; but I'll never know which one did more...I would like to see how your experiment goes

[cbiedess]

hows the experiment goin?

[Fullback7]

hows the experiment goin?

I'm going to start it up next monday. My schedule got kind of side tracked this week.

[cbiedess]

ah thats cool

[GuiYoM]

How will you judge success and how will you judge failure ?
What kind of conclusion are you excepting ?

[qb0708]

One other variable that you need to think about is the definition of "olympic lifts" technically olympic lifts are the snatch and clean & jerk, power snatches are more of a bodybuilding lift (this is my opinion from what ive read), i personally like a full snatch the best, of course this is subject to somebody being able to perform it... but both are great (box squats and olympic lifts that is) i doubt there will be much difference condsidering both powerlifters and olympic lifters usually have phenomonal vertical leaps, this shows both ways of training can achieve explosive strength in vertical leap, and with proper running form a good amount of speed

[scott_donald]

One other variable that you need to think about is the definition of "olympic lifts" technically olympic lifts are the snatch and clean & jerk, power snatches are more of a bodybuilding lift (this is my opinion from what ive read), i personally like a full snatch the best, of course this is subject to somebody being able to perform it... but both are great (box squats and olympic lifts that is) i doubt there will be much difference condsidering both powerlifters and olympic lifters usually have phenomonal vertical leaps, this shows both ways of training can achieve explosive strength in vertical leap, and with proper running form a good amount of speed

powersnatch is a variation of an olymipc lift...

[qb0708]

yes it is, but its used more in bodybuilders training, not to often in the workouts of olympic lifters

[TJonesd2]

3 weeks is nothing, and if you are just starting to really do the power snatch it wont help with force output. Anyway, you shouldnt replace squats with oly lifts... it just doesnt make sense.

most trainers agree oly lifts are really only inferior because they are hard to learn correctly.

[Fullback7]

3 weeks is nothing, and if you are just starting to really do the power snatch it wont help with force output. Anyway, you shouldnt replace squats with oly lifts... it just doesnt make sense.

most trainers agree oly lifts are really only inferior because they are hard to learn correctly.

After 3-4 weeks of 3 reps though, you will get a large benefit out of the lift. Kind of like looking at the conjugate method when applying this. I don't understand why you say it won't help either. Go do depth jumps for 3 weeks, and I will probably assure you will have improved.

? I'm not replacing squats with o lifts ?

[TJonesd2]

After 3-4 weeks of 3 reps though, you will get a large benefit out of the lift. Kind of like looking at the conjugate method when applying this. I don't understand why you say it won't help either. Go do depth jumps for 3 weeks, and I will probably assure you will have improved.

? I'm not replacing squats with o lifts ?

what Im saying is that in 3 weeks, your body will still be learnign the movement and learning to recruit your motor units correctly. So while poundages may go up in the lift, it isn't necessarily going to make you stronger.

Depth jumps are different because 1) They are more sport specific and 2)They are a very intense plyometric exercise.

If you plan on doing oly lifts for sports, I highly recommend doing the full versions. The drop into the squat is VERY plyometric and the ability to perform them and the flexibility needed is very athletic in nature. Also, there is more force output because more weight is being used.

[jgood]

Ever since I have been here one of the constant debates has been. Are o lifts more beneficial than box squats. In my personal belief ME & DE box squats are just as effective, and maybe even more effective than o lifts. Recently I have however become curious. Even though everything study that I have found done proves my initial theory to be true, as well as the opinions of other highly regarded trainer... I have still become intrigued to know through my own study. As of right now my vert, and speed has been kind of stuck. So here is my little experiment.....

My workout will continue as it is, with ME box squats coming up in my next 3 week cycle. Instead of DE Box squats that I would have added in going into the next cycle, I will be adding in the power snatch which has the highest power output of the o lifts. On monday I will record my vertical, broad jump, 10, 20, and 40 yard sprint times. I will continue recording my times twice every week for the next 3 weeks. I want to continue my workout just as it has been, but I want to add in the power snatch (4x3). So I know if something begins to change drastically I will know exactly where it is coming from. Any other ideas to make this study better?

Doing some partial quoting from starting strength or practical programming (can't remember which) and personal knowledge ... olympic lifts are great for creating explosion since the lifts have to be done fast -- the example they used was a deadlift took like 3 seconds and a powerclean took .6 seconds and even though the weight is lower for powerclean the power output is far greater than the deadlift because of the execution speed. Now how does this apply? Powerlifting exercises such as squat, deadlift, bench press are great for creating maximal strength but at high weights are done very slowly .... in powerlifting the speed doesn't matter (some strongmen events too) just the amount of reps or weight completed. Olympic lifts can never be done at maximal strength (they are done at the max weight you can perform but not the most you can lift) but like I said if you do not execute quickly the lift will not be completed. So this shows you must include both in training for sports .. if its an explosive sport like football, baseball ect. because not only do you have to be strong, you must be explosive.

[SlammaJamma]

Doing some partial quoting from starting strength or practical programming (can't remember which) and personal knowledge ... olympic lifts are great for creating explosion since the lifts have to be done fast -- the example they used was a deadlift took like 3 seconds and a powerclean took .6 seconds and even though the weight is lower for powerclean the power output is far greater than the deadlift because of the execution speed. Now how does this apply? Powerlifting exercises such as squat, deadlift, bench press are great for creating maximal strength but at high weights are done very slowly .... in powerlifting the speed doesn't matter (some strongmen events too) just the amount of reps or weight completed. Olympic lifts can never be done at maximal strength (they are done at the max weight you can perform but not the most you can lift) but like I said if you do not execute quickly the lift will not be completed. So this shows you must include both in training for sports .. if its an explosive sport like football, baseball ect. because not only do you have to be strong, you must be explosive.

Unless you include DE days in your powerlifting routine, in which case power output can be maximized.

[IronAbrams]

Unless you include DE days in your powerlifting routine, in which case power output can be maximized.

Exactly.

What Fullback is comparing is the Olympic Lifts versus the Dynamic Effort Method that Westside uses- which is strength-speed (explosiveness) developed at 50-70% of your 1RM, trying to move the weight as fast as possible.

Assuming he already can Power Snatch with good form, it'll be a decent personal experiment. If not, not so much- learning curve of the O lifts is pretty steep before you can start reaping actual explosive benefit, whereas any gym rat who can Box Squat can do it with Dynamic Effort (which IMO is the biggest benefit of the Westside method).

Over time though, you've gotta learn what works best for you, and for what it's worth I think the benefits of the O lifts (flexibility specifically) goes past just the increase in explosiveness.

[Fullback7]

Exactly.

What Fullback is comparing is the Olympic Lifts versus the Dynamic Effort Method that Westside uses- which is strength-speed (explosiveness) developed at 50-70% of your 1RM, trying to move the weight as fast as possible.

Assuming he already can Power Snatch with good form, it'll be a decent personal experiment. If not, not so much- learning curve of the O lifts is pretty steep before you can start reaping actual explosive benefit, whereas any gym rat who can Box Squat can do it with Dynamic Effort (which IMO is the biggest benefit of the Westside method).

Over time though, you've gotta learn what works best for you, and for what it's worth I think the benefits of the O lifts (flexibility specifically) goes past just the increase in explosiveness.

I have decent form. Nothing to pass as an O lifter, but I did O lifts for 8 years 2-4 times a week for 10+ months a year.... So I know how to do them with decent form. I don't think many people look at the O lifts as lifts that do increase flexibility. They think of it as a one and done type of movement.

I don't think I will have any maximal strength benefits in the squat from doing O lifts. I have read about how Dave Tate tried to incorporate them into his gym, and how Westside used them for a time period, with no strength increases in the squat. However I would have been curious to know if their rate of force had decreased at all during their DE box squats.

Another thing that reall caught my attention though is doing O lifts from the knees. I watched Louie's seminar, and he was talking about throwers cleaning 275-315lbs. from their knees.. which is insane. Has anyone reading this ever tried anything like that befoe?

I think when it all boils down to it, unless an athlete already has perfected the O lifts their really is no need to incorporate them. If you have 15 weeks to train an athlete.. why should even 3 sessions be used teaching the lift. Time is usually always a factor, and you can either take more time to reach a goal, or take less time to reap the same benefits. In this studying, I am trying to understand if they produce any significant results worth noting.

[watchandsee23]

I have decent form. Nothing to pass as an O lifter, but I did O lifts for 8 years 2-4 times a week for 10+ months a year.... So I know how to do them with decent form. I don't think many people look at the O lifts as lifts that do increase flexibility. They think of it as a one and done type of movement.

I don't think I will have any maximal strength benefits in the squat from doing O lifts. I have read about how Dave Tate tried to incorporate them into his gym, and how Westside used them for a time period, with no strength increases in the squat. However I would have been curious to know if their rate of force had decreased at all during their DE box squats.

Another thing that reall caught my attention though is doing O lifts from the knees. I watched Louie's seminar, and he was talking about throwers cleaning 275-315lbs. from their knees.. which is insane. Has anyone reading this ever tried anything like that befoe?

I think when it all boils down to it, unless an athlete already has perfected the O lifts their really is no need to incorporate them. If you have 15 weeks to train an athlete.. why should even 3 sessions be used teaching the lift. Time is usually always a factor, and you can either take more time to reach a goal, or take less time to reap the same benefits. In this studying, I am trying to understand if they produce any significant results worth noting.

O/T but did u get my last PM?

[Fullback7]

O/T but did u get my last PM?

No, I got only got one from you. Which I replied to. Just send it again.

[SlammaJamma]

Another thing that reall caught my attention though is doing O lifts from the knees. I watched Louie's seminar, and he was talking about throwers cleaning 275-315lbs. from their knees.. which is insane. Has anyone reading this ever tried anything like that befoe?

I think by saying cleans from the knees he means hang cleans from a dead start (like a rack pull). It's basically like a box squat compared to a regular squat, it removes the stretch reflex. I tried them a while back, I was about 20% weaker.

[Fullback7]

I think by saying cleans from the knees he means hang cleans from a dead start (like a rack pull). It's basically like a box squat compared to a regular squat, it removes the stretch reflex. I tried them a while back, I was about 20% weaker.

No he actually meant from the knees, not pulls from blocks. He demonstrated it during his seminar.

[G-mane12]

how much can u hang clean

[TJonesd2]

I have decent form. Nothing to pass as an O lifter, but I did O lifts for 8 years 2-4 times a week for 10+ months a year.... So I know how to do them with decent form. I don't think many people look at the O lifts as lifts that do increase flexibility. They think of it as a one and done type of movement.

I don't think I will have any maximal strength benefits in the squat from doing O lifts. I have read about how Dave Tate tried to incorporate them into his gym, and how Westside used them for a time period, with no strength increases in the squat. However I would have been curious to know if their rate of force had decreased at all during their DE box squats.

Another thing that reall caught my attention though is doing O lifts from the knees. I watched Louie's seminar, and he was talking about throwers cleaning 275-315lbs. from their knees.. which is insane. Has anyone reading this ever tried anything like that befoe?

I think when it all boils down to it, unless an athlete already has perfected the O lifts their really is no need to incorporate them. If you have 15 weeks to train an athlete.. why should even 3 sessions be used teaching the lift. Time is usually always a factor, and you can either take more time to reach a goal, or take less time to reap the same benefits. In this studying, I am trying to understand if they produce any significant results worth noting.

theres sme vids out there of guys hang cleaning 405... some freaks in college football