What can I add to my protein shake?

[pocho]

I bought ON Pro Complex, Vanilla flavor, a little while ago. I'm a little tired of the taste and want to add something to it, maybe try to make it a "gainer" in some sense. I was thinking some oats, or pb, or egg whites (cooked whites that is).

So, what should I add to it?

Thanks

[mwatson]

MY PWO shake consists of:

2 scoops ON whey
1 bannana
1/2 cup oats
1 cup skim milk

It's tasty.

[RB12]

well it all depends on how everything fits into your overall macros, but here are some good things to consider:

Yogurt
Cottage Cheese
Milk
Oats
Fruit
Peanut Butter

[pa mma]

if you want to make it a gainer type thing but yet still somewhat tastey i suggest adding in 1/2 cup oats, some flax seed oil and 2 table spoons pb and then toss it in a blender...and use whole milk...you can also add in yogurt as well

[_J-BONE_]

Peanut Butter is a really good thing to add in order to make it more of a gainer along with Whole Milk and bannana

[Incinerated]

MY PWO shake consists of:

2 scoops ON whey
1 bannana
1/2 cup oats
1 cup skim milk

It's tasty.

why oats PWO? and try whole milk... better results

[RB12]

why oats PWO? and try whole milk... better results

huh? oats are great pre or post workout. the important thing is to get carbs, the "speed" of carbs does not matter

[_J-BONE_]

huh? oats are great pre or post workout. the important thing is to get carbs, the "speed" of carbs does not matter

Agree..Oats are good anytime..all the time

[burningrave101]

Just curious but do you guys have a favorite brand of oats you buy for your protein shakes?

[Phosphate bond]

I bought ON Pro Complex, Vanilla flavor, a little while ago. I'm a little tired of the taste and want to add something to it, maybe try to make it a "gainer" in some sense. I was thinking some oats, or pb, or egg whites (cooked whites that is).

So, what should I add to it?

Thanks

Oats
Strawberries
Blueberries
Walnuts (micronutrient dense nut with the highest amount of EFAS)
Palatinose (this sweetens any walnut taste out)

The fruit and walnuts really taste good. You would be suprised but use the Palatinose (Avant Research SuperCarb) with it. That really helps.

[RB12]

Just curious but do you guys have a favorite brand of oats you buy for your protein shakes?

store brands are fine as are Quaker. There are basically 3 kinds of oats:
(1) Rolled
(2) Rolled quick oats (basically cut thinner)
(3) Steel cut oats (like pea gravel)

Steel cut are more calorie dense, but I like normal rolled oats. I can eat them plain or grind them easily in a shake

[Incinerated]

huh? oats are great pre or post workout. the important thing is to get carbs, the "speed" of carbs does not matter

can you prove this?

I would enjoy a reference to a study where two trials were compared and those taking slow digesting (low-gi carbs) gained as much muscle mass as those taking in fast digesting carbs (high-gi carbs) with protein PWO.

[Adjusting]

Add whipping cream. Makes the shake taste great. It's a high source of non-carb calories and not that expensive.

[RB12]

can you prove this?

I would enjoy a reference to a study where two trials were compared and those taking slow digesting (low-gi carbs) gained as much muscle mass as those taking in fast digesting carbs (high-gi carbs) with protein PWO.

can you prove GI matters

Good thread explaining the irrelevance: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5358123

Article with cited research: http://alanaragon.com/elements-chall...mic-index.html

[Adjusting]

can you prove this?

I would enjoy a reference to a study where two trials were compared and those taking slow digesting (low-gi carbs) gained as much muscle mass as those taking in fast digesting carbs (high-gi carbs) with protein PWO.

Here's a couple studies showing carb source doesn't really matter.

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.



Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

[Bydded_Gryf]

Olive oil!

[Incinerated]

can you prove GI matters

Good thread explaining the irrelevance: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5358123

Article with cited research: http://alanaragon.com/elements-chall...mic-index.html

yes i read those in reference to GI and dieting and GI in general... but i didn't read anything in relation to actual bodybuilding (point it out if i'm wrong here, i would much rather NOT buy overpriced Dex/malto, etc...)

But white bread is going to cause an insulin spike > than that of Oats, and Dextrose is gonna raise it even more. Taking in protein with that the insulin will shuttle the protein into muscle cells, it will also help replenish glycogen stores...


Otherwise why does Size on work? why does vitargo? why is there a demand for torrent?

[Adjusting]

Otherwise why does Size on work?

Because it has glycerol, Peak ATP and creatine.

[_J-BONE_]

yes i read those in reference to GI and dieting and GI in general... but i didn't read anything in relation to actual bodybuilding (point it out if i'm wrong here, i would much rather NOT buy overpriced Dex/malto, etc...)

But white bread is going to cause an insulin spike > than that of Oats, and Dextrose is gonna raise it even more. Taking in protein with that the insulin will shuttle the protein into muscle cells, it will also help replenish glycogen stores...


Otherwise why does Size on work? why does vitargo? why is there a demand for torrent?

It just does...

[RB12]

yes i read those in reference to GI and dieting and GI in general... but i didn't read anything in relation to actual bodybuilding (point it out if i'm wrong here, i would much rather NOT buy overpriced Dex/malto, etc...)

But white bread is going to cause an insulin spike > than that of Oats, and Dextrose is gonna raise it even more. Taking in protein with that the insulin will shuttle the protein into muscle cells, it will also help replenish glycogen stores...


Otherwise why does Size on work? why does vitargo? why is there a demand for torrent?

did you read jdrannin1's posted studies too?

size on provides extra cals, that is one of the main benefits. why is there a demand for "super fast" carbs? well, to be honest, bc most people dont look into a lot of the science behind it. why do people think there is a direct tie between oral glutamine and muscle building? sure it might help with some digestion or general health indirectly providing benefit, but people dont want to hear that.

INSULIN ISSUES

As a classic example of chaos physics, the typical rules that predict GI do not necessarily help in predicting insulin response. Unfortunately for GI-conscious people, insulin is usually what they are trying to control. Despite having a very low GI of 15-36, milk and yogurt have a high insulin index equivalent to that of the high-GI white bread [5]. Baked beans, another low-GI food, have a very high insulin index of 120. Cheese, beef, and fish have II's that are comparable to many carbohydrate foods.

Coingestion of fat with carbohydrate slows gastric emptying and thus the release of glucose into the blood, ultimately lowering GI. While this is usually true for GI, the degree of insulin response evoked by this combination is determined by the degree of the fat's saturation. For example, Collier & others observed that butter coingested with potato not only fails to lower postprandial insulinemia, it actually causes a synergistically heightened insulin response, even in healthy subjects [6,7].

Foods that should have a low GI due to their high fat content do not always have a low GI. Examples are fries, cookies, croissants, and doughnuts. Incidentally, these foods also have a high insulin index, presumably because their fat is mostly saturated. As of this writing, full-fat ice cream (low GI of appx 37) has not been tested for II, but it's safe to assume that it probably has disparate GI & II values.

Rasmussen & colleagues observed no increased insulin response with the addition of 40g or 80g olive oil, but saw a significant increase with 50g & 100g butter [8]. Joannic's team observed a coingestion of carbohydrate with fats of increasing degree of unsaturation having a corresponding decrease in insulin response [9]. A more recent study by Robertson & colleagues compared the effect of MUFA, PUFA, & SFA coingestion with carbohydrate and observed SFA's superior ability to raise postprandial insulin levels [10].

Coingestion of protein with carbohydrate is often recommended to lower GI, but it doesn't necessarily lower insulin response. Gannon & Nutall's research on type-2 diabetics showed that coingested cottage cheese & glucose raised insulin levels beyond either food separately, indicating a synergistic effect [11]. Van Loon & colleagues saw a similar phenomenon when comparing the insulin effect of various carb-protein/amino acid and carb-only solutions [12]. Those containing free leucine, phenylalanine, & arginine, and the drinks with free leucine, phenylalanine, & wheat protein hydrolysate were followed by the largest insulin response (101% and 103% greater, respectively, than with the carb-only solution).


5) Ostman EM, et al. Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. Am J Clin Nutr 2001; 74(1):96-100.
6) Collier G, et al. The effect of coingestion of fat on the glucose, insulin, and gastric inhibitory polypeptide responses to carbohydrate and protein. Am J Clin Nutr 1983;37(6):941-4.
7) Collier G, et al. The acute effect of fat on insulin secretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988;66(2):323-6.
8) Rasmussen O, et al. Differential effects of saturated and monounsaturated fat on blood glucose and insulin responses in subjects with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Am J Clin Nutr 1996 Feb;63(2):249-53.
9) Joannic JL, et al. How the degree of unsaturation of dietary fatty acids influences the glucose and insulin responses to different carbohydrates in mixed meals. Am J Clin Nutr 1997 May;65(5):1427-33.
10) Robertson MD, et al. Acute effects of meal fatty acid composition on insulin sensitivity in healthy post-menopausal women. Br J Nutr 2002;88(6):635-40.
11) Gannon MC, et al. Metabolic response to cottage cheese or egg white protein, with or without glucose, in type II diabetic subjects. Metabolism 1992;41(10):1137-45.
12) van Loon LJ, et al. Plasma insulin responses after ingestion of different amino acid or protein mixtures with carbohydrate. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72(1):96-105.
13) Raben A. Should obese patients be counselled to follow a low-glycaemic index diet? No. Obes Rev. 2002 Nov;3(4):245-56.

[Phosphate bond]

A more recent study by Robertson & colleagues compared the effect of MUFA, PUFA, & SFA coingestion with carbohydrate and observed SFA's superior ability to raise postprandial insulin levels [10].

I was just writing about this in another thread.

In some cases I think if someone is endomorphic then any fast releasing carb may not be ideal for them. (If trying to use adipose for energy)

Fact is blood vessels are dilated postworkout and as long as the protein gets there with adequate glucose glycogen should be refilled anyway without needing a insulin spike.

Plus you have to consider that if extra free fatty acids are floating around in the blood stream why add a bunch of dextrose to this? Just let the free fatty acids get oxidized in muscle and let whatever glucose go to non-oxidative pathways (ie, glycogen)

[Adjusting]

I was just writing about this in another thread.

In some cases I think if someone is endomorphic then any fast releasing carb may not be ideal for them. (If trying to use adipose for energy)

Fact is blood vessels are dilated postworkout and as long as the protein gets there with adequate glucose glycogen should be refilled anyway without needing a insulin spike.

Plus you have to consider that if extra free fatty acids are floating around in the blood stream why add a bunch of dextrose to this? Just let the free fatty acids get oxidized in muscle and let whatever glucose go to non-oxidative pathways (ie, glycogen)

And I think fats should be avoided pwo as well for that same reason.

[Phosphate bond]

why is there a demand for "super fast" carbs? well, to be honest, bc most people dont look into a lot of the science behind it.

I think a lot of this has to do with processed carbs (like glucose, sucrose) being used to standardize for CHO in studies. This makes interpreting things more convenient without having to take different insulinogenic variables into account.

Of course, how do we know these are the best CHO sources? We don't....but that is what was used so that is what is being sold.

[RB12]

I think a lot of this has to do with processed carbs (like glucose, sucrose) being used to standardize for CHO in studies. This makes interpreting things more convenient without having to take different insulinogenic variables into account.

Of course, how do we know these are the best CHO sources? We don't....but that is what was used so that is what is being sold.

sure, and i think different studies activities different carbs work better. WMS and such I see as good carbs for high endurance activities or very long duration activities for example. but applicability in one activity does not prove "ideal" in others

[Phosphate bond]

And I think fats should be avoided pwo as well for that same reason.

Well I don't neccessarily think EFAS should be avoided because they are needed in the repair process also. When blood flow is good to muscle this may not be a bad idea. Muscles need both protein and EFAS for repair.

Now someone may say that if Pre-workout nutrition is sufficient with EFAS then plasma levels post-workout should be good enough. That may be right too.

Now if using EFAS post-workout I would definitely use some "EFA dense" enough so the most amount of EFAS are delivered with the least amount of fat. Walnuts actually are good for this and have arginine in them as an added bonus.

[tsaiwins]

fats slow down the absorbtion process you are correct. There are only 2 times during the day that you want to create an insulin spike. In the morning when you wake up and after your workout. This insulin spike will come from the fast digesting carbs. The reason you want this insulin spike is due to catabolism at night and after your workout. Insulin will prevent catabolism and keep you in an anabolic state.

[Adjusting]

Well I don't neccessarily think EFAS should be avoided because they are needed in the repair process also. When blood flow is good to muscle this may not be a bad idea. Muscles need both protein and EFAS for repair.

Now someone may say that if Pre-workout nutrition is sufficient with EFAS then plasma levels post-workout should be good enough. That may be right too.

Now if using EFAS post-workout I would definitely use some "EFA dense" enough so the most amount of EFAS are delivered with the least amount of fat. Walnuts actually are good for this and have arginine in them as an added bonus.

Now, I'm just talking in the context of a dieter or endomorph...

With the walnuts....are you talking in the context of a whole food source that has EFA's in them? So EFA absorption takes relatively longer to occur? I'm just thinking back to Dave Palumbo who suggests mac. oil pwo and with the speed of absorption of a fat in liquid form....I just see it entering the blood stream so quickly and "competing" with the other free fatty acids in the blood already. (Possible blunting fat burning?) And then you have the anti-inflammatory aspect of EFA's pwo...

[Adjusting]

fats slow down the absorbtion process you are correct. There are only 2 times during the day that you want to create an insulin spike. In the morning when you wake up and after your workout. This insulin spike will come from the fast digesting carbs. The reason you want this insulin spike is due to catabolism at night and after your workout. Insulin will prevent catabolism and keep you in an anabolic state.

Fast digesting carbs aren't needed pwo to boost insulin. See the study I posted above.

[Phosphate bond]

Now, I'm just talking in the context of a dieter or endomorph...

With the walnuts....are you talking in the context of a whole food source that has EFA's in them? So EFA absorption takes relatively longer to occur? I'm just thinking back to Dave Palumbo who suggests mac. oil pwo and with the speed of absorption of a fat in liquid form....I just see it entering the blood stream so quickly and "competing" with the other free fatty acids in the blood already. (Possible blunting fat burning?) And then you have the anti-inflammatory aspect of EFA's pwo...

Well you wouldn't want more saturated fat post-workout (if you were endomorphic) because that would compete with saturated fat from adipose. So I agree.

[Phosphate bond]

can you prove this?

I would enjoy a reference to a study where two trials were compared and those taking slow digesting (low-gi carbs) gained as much muscle mass as those taking in fast digesting carbs (high-gi carbs) with protein PWO.

The only time I would say slower Carbs *could* beat fast carbs is in endomorphs. This is because they have the extra fuel available in adipose that can be tapped into for calories to be used in the muscle repair process.

Of course extra calories help build muscle. Ideally though you want the calories from adipose to add to the calories from diet.