I want a civil discussion on this topic if at all possible, but I would prefer hearing from someone who has actually formulated the product, not just someone who talked to someone who knew someone who put some uber arginine in the formula.
So here's my question. Why arginine?
all companies welcome.
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05-29-2008, 02:24 PM #1
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Looking for a civil discussion on the use of arginine in pump products
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05-29-2008, 02:29 PM #2
Nitric Oxide (N.O.) is a cellular gas that causes blood vessels to dilate, engorging the muscles with blood, increasing oxygen & nutrient delivery, and facilitating the removal of metabolic waste products that lead to fatigue. This cascade of events is whats known as "The PUMP." Consumed in sufficient amounts, Arginine is one of the best, if not the best, precursors of N.O. synthesis in the body.
Last edited by The Bigger Picture; 05-29-2008 at 02:46 PM.
Time Ticks In One Direction, So Make Today Count
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05-29-2008, 02:35 PM #3
I have never been able to get it through my head that these products do what they say other than make you look like a puffer fish. All the years of reading on here and M&M pre-ban told me that this crap is a marketing product not a science product. If I want to take something that is going to supposedly make muscle, it had better shrink my balls also.
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05-29-2008, 02:36 PM #4
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05-29-2008, 02:38 PM #5
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05-29-2008, 02:40 PM #6
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05-29-2008, 02:45 PM #7
While I wouldn't use it for this purpose in a product, it was a good story to tell from marketing perspective. It is the precursor to NO and it does cause vasodilation, so it was easy to think these effects were brought about through it increasing NO. As I assume you know, studies show arginine is not the rate limiting factor for NO synthesis in humans, but many people don't. Taking extra arginine orally, wont increase NO levels.
It does increase vasodialtion though, but through spiking insulin and insulin having direct vasodialtion effects.
Easy for many to think,the vasodialtion is occurring from NO increases, not realizing it's through increasing insulin.
Not much more complicated than that imo.Who we are and what we stand for as a company:http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/supplement-company-of-the-month-athletic-edge.html?searchterm=athletic
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05-29-2008, 02:49 PM #8
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05-29-2008, 02:57 PM #9
We do all in house testing as we do not trust outside sources. If you notice we have not introduced an arginine based NO product out for years after our Vassive NO. We pride ourselves in quality and conduct the most comprehensive studies. Yes I know everyone claims to this statement but that is when we let our products speak for themselves.
Time Ticks In One Direction, So Make Today Count
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05-29-2008, 03:04 PM #10
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05-29-2008, 03:19 PM #11
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05-29-2008, 03:41 PM #12
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05-30-2008, 08:27 AM #13
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05-30-2008, 08:34 AM #14
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05-30-2008, 08:37 AM #15
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05-30-2008, 08:42 AM #16Who we are and what we stand for as a company:http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/supplement-company-of-the-month-athletic-edge.html?searchterm=athletic
Our latest pre-workout article: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/two-steps-to-kill-workout-fatigue.html
Follow us on ********: www.********.com/AthleticEdgeNutrition?ref=ts&fref=ts
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05-30-2008, 08:45 AM #17Certitude is the enemy of wisdom.
"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." Johnathan Swift.
Remember this principle: if you have to chew something, it ain't anabolic. Alan Aragon
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05-30-2008, 08:48 AM #18
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05-30-2008, 08:51 AM #19
Honestly, I don't know what more can be said than my original post, it's the reality of the aginine/NO research.
I've even looked at studies measuring NO levels from people that were put on a arginine FREE diet and than supplemented arginine and it still showed NO changes in NO synthesis. The list goes on and on.
I've always felt fortunate that the science is so WEAK in this industry,that eventhough it's highly saturated, there's stil plenty of room for effective products to be launched, based on properly interpreted science.Who we are and what we stand for as a company:http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/supplement-company-of-the-month-athletic-edge.html?searchterm=athletic
Our latest pre-workout article: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/two-steps-to-kill-workout-fatigue.html
Follow us on ********: www.********.com/AthleticEdgeNutrition?ref=ts&fref=ts
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05-30-2008, 08:55 AM #20Certitude is the enemy of wisdom.
"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." Johnathan Swift.
Remember this principle: if you have to chew something, it ain't anabolic. Alan Aragon
NIMBUS NUTRITION "When Performance is Everything!"
POSEIDON
clay@nimbusnutrition.com
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05-30-2008, 08:56 AM #21
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05-30-2008, 08:56 AM #22
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05-30-2008, 09:07 AM #23
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05-30-2008, 09:11 AM #24
Yeah, since the citrulline is just a way to increase endogenous arginine, the same thing I said about arginine applies, as increased arginine does not drive NO synthesis.
Citrulline MAY have some other potential uses though and I know its well liked on the forums. Do these potential benefits carry over to bringing about performance changes in humans? Who knows, as the research on it, is pretty much non existent, except for the one finger flextion study, from back in 2002.
I'm sure this is disappointing for alot of people, including myself, but from a research standpoint, it is what it is.Last edited by ATHLETIC EDGE N; 05-30-2008 at 09:15 AM.
Who we are and what we stand for as a company:http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/supplement-company-of-the-month-athletic-edge.html?searchterm=athletic
Our latest pre-workout article: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/two-steps-to-kill-workout-fatigue.html
Follow us on ********: www.********.com/AthleticEdgeNutrition?ref=ts&fref=ts
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05-30-2008, 09:18 AM #25
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05-30-2008, 09:29 AM #26
I know and the anecdotal feedback is strong and should NOT be discounted IMO, atleast from a performance perspective. From a NO, perspective, I would classify it, as the same as arginine.
It would be nice if someone would do a legit citrulline human performance study, like what we have so many for creatine or beta-alanine.
In the mean time if people like it, I see no reason to stop using it, simply based off the lack of research.
On a positive note, I've never seen anything to show it doesn't improve performance either, so who knowsWho we are and what we stand for as a company:http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/supplement-company-of-the-month-athletic-edge.html?searchterm=athletic
Our latest pre-workout article: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/two-steps-to-kill-workout-fatigue.html
Follow us on ********: www.********.com/AthleticEdgeNutrition?ref=ts&fref=ts
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05-30-2008, 09:41 AM #27Certitude is the enemy of wisdom.
"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." Johnathan Swift.
Remember this principle: if you have to chew something, it ain't anabolic. Alan Aragon
NIMBUS NUTRITION "When Performance is Everything!"
POSEIDON
clay@nimbusnutrition.com
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05-30-2008, 09:48 AM #28
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05-30-2008, 09:49 AM #29
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05-30-2008, 09:52 AM #30Certitude is the enemy of wisdom.
"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." Johnathan Swift.
Remember this principle: if you have to chew something, it ain't anabolic. Alan Aragon
NIMBUS NUTRITION "When Performance is Everything!"
POSEIDON
clay@nimbusnutrition.com
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