Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss

[HUNTER1313]

In my opinion about studies, for every study going one way, theres another coming back. Its the same for vegan and meatatarian. I personally love the IF lifestyle. I was abit more ripped (and weighed less) when I was training for my pro MMA fight two years ago eating every few hours, BUT, since being on IF, I am abit heavier, not as ripped but I dont really track my diet like I did back then and I dont eat as cleas as I did. So if I really wanted to and tweaked the IF diet I am sure I could look abit better (not that I am a fat ass or anything) The only deviation from the IF diet I do is a little yogourt and whey post workout as I workout around 11am-12pm then go to work at 4pm till 12am, which is when I feast. I know its not leangains but its whats working so far, have been contemplating switching to the leangains way though, havent decided whether I want to eat during the day or just feast after work, and no I have no probs with digestion or going to sleep. The one thing I am wondering though is if IF can sustain strongmen? I am making a change and will be doing alot more powerlifting and strongman training.

[FunkymonkAW]

That's context dependent, but consider that blood glucose is maintained within range mostly by gluconeogenesis beyond the 16 hr mark*. That answer might not make a lot of sense, but eat sufficient amounts of slow releasing protein before going to bed and it shouldn't be an issue even if you go for longer than 16 hrs.**

They key factor in whether you'll lose muscle or not is the severity of calorie deficit, not meal time intervals within a non-retarded range.

* note that the studies looking at this contained nutrional regimens very different from what we are doing (i.e Cahill et all fed test subjects 100 g cho before bed time, no protein, and then had them fast for several days to gauge the rate by which liver glycogen vs gluconeogenesis contributes to maintain blood glucose).

** hell there's even a study out there suggesting proteolytic gene expression does not become turned on until the 40 hr mark or so.

Thanks. I'm just tired of telling people that they don't need cottage cheese/casein powder/milk before bed or 5-6 meals a day to avoid significant catabolism of muscles. I just needed to know how long (roughly), so I would have facts to back up my claim. I figured you IFers of all people would know about this best. Thanks.

[Martin Berkhan]

Thanks. I'm just tired of telling people that they don't need cottage cheese/casein powder/milk before bed or 5-6 meals a day to avoid significant catabolism of muscles. I just needed to know how long (roughly), so I would have facts to back up my claim. I figured you IFers of all people would know about this best. Thanks.

Just don't expect science and empirical data to change these peoples beliefs. Emotional attachment/bias to a certain theory or lifestyle (almost) always comes out on top vs science when it comes to certain topics.

[FunkymonkAW]

Just don't expect science and empirical data to change these peoples beliefs. Emotional attachment/bias to a certain theory or lifestyle (almost) always comes out on top vs science when it comes to certain topics.

Of course, but if someone ever called me out on my claim, I'd at least like to know that my claim is correct in the context that I presented it.

[Ultrablack]

Guys what is your opinion on working out fasted and then making dinner your post-workout meal?

[The Solution]

Guys what is your opinion on working out fasted and then making dinner your post-workout meal?

Perfectly fine, done it multiple times and had very successful workouts.

[determined4000]

so you do cardio in the morning and dont eat anything after and then workout fasted later in the day? i am an IF'er myself but my inner "bro" is screaming muscle loss. no hate, just curious how this is working for you?

Yes but
I eat 2/3 of my intake in the last 3hrs of the day, sleep 8, cardio, fast another 7, and then lift
I actually feel more focused and think my intensity is better lifting like this. Lifting is about 40mins and I dont think there would be much difference nutritionally if I were to eat right before my workout (wouldnt be digested anyways) or if I wait another 45minutes. If I were to eat and be less focused and intense, I don't think the benefits of eating Pre would outweigh less productive workouts.
Just my opinion. Others may disagree or have different experiences.

[jonny62]

If someone where to have there main workout (weights) late afternoon, then start there eating cycle, then sleep, etc. Would cardio be best placed first thing in the morning? Seeing as cardio causes less muscular stress, and more cardiovascular stress than weight sessions it wouldn’t need nutritional intake striaight after, and fat burning would be increased during the day right?

Just my theory, and I ask cos im trying to put together a routine and wondering where to put my cardio. Thanks guys.

[determined4000]

If someone where to have there main workout (weights) late afternoon, then start there eating cycle, then sleep, etc. Would cardio be best placed first thing in the morning? Seeing as cardio causes less muscular stress, and more cardiovascular stress than weight sessions it wouldn?t need nutritional intake striaight after, and fat burning would be increased during the day right?

Just my theory, and I ask cos im trying to put together a routine and wondering where to put my cardio. Thanks guys.

Thats what I do
look at the last two pages of posts, it was just discussed

[Ringo Star]

Guys what is your opinion on working out fasted and then making dinner your post-workout meal?

Thats the basis of the Warrior Diet (discussed plenty, hit the search)

Fasted workouts, then you eat afterwards.

Im my personal experience, before moving onto IF, I moved my training to a morning session. 7AM and I was not eating anything before hand. My lifts went up and my endurance levels improved.

Further evidence, for me personally at least, that carb intake 2 hours before has no impact on my training.

[bretter]

when is the book coming out?

[Ted Nugent]

hey guys,

im giving your plan a try (Determined 4000) trying to lose a little more fat while keeping my strength/muscle gains improving so im adding in 30 min of cardio in the mornings 3-5 days a week, just walking 3.3mph on 10 incline for 30 min...nothing too crazy. then continuing my fast until my 3:00 pm workout. now due to the morning cardio im thinking about sipping some BCAA during the fast because it seems like a good idea for the well being of my muscles? and does anyone have a link to study involving exteneded fasting and catabolism. ive been doing IF for a year now and love it but i still have nagging worries about catabolism from fasted training sorry guise

[determined4000]

hey guys,

im giving your plan a try (Determined 4000) trying to lose a little more fat while keeping my strength/muscle gains improving so im adding in 30 min of cardio in the mornings 3-5 days a week, just walking 3.3mph on 10 incline for 30 min...nothing too crazy. then continuing my fast until my 3:00 pm workout. now due to the morning cardio im thinking about sipping some BCAA during the fast because it seems like a good idea for the well being of my muscles? and does anyone have a link to study involving exteneded fasting and catabolism. ive been doing IF for a year now and love it but i still have nagging worries about catabolism from fasted training sorry guise

Are you referring to weight training fasted in the afternoon being fasted as well as morning cardio, weight training and cardio in the morning, or are you doing cardio in the morning fasted and then weights in the afternoon unfasted?
In any of the three cases...
I have heard numerous times you have a 24hr window to provide nourishment but I am sure you can find contradictory literature (just like with anything in the nutritional world).
I have been gaining slowly with cardio in the morning and doing fasted workouts (cuz I feel my lifts are better when I do). I would recommend trying different approaches and following with whatever makes you feel best and see the best results. If this works for you, then continue it, if it doesn't adjust.

[Ted Nugent]

Are you referring to weight training fasted in the afternoon being fasted as well as morning cardio, weight training and cardio in the morning, or are you doing cardio in the morning fasted and then weights in the afternoon unfasted?
In any of the three cases...
I have heard numerous times you have a 24hr window to provide nourishment but I am sure you can find contradictory literature (just like with anything in the nutritional world).
I have been gaining slowly with cardio in the morning and doing fasted workouts (cuz I feel my lifts are better when I do). I would recommend trying different approaches and following with whatever makes you feel best and see the best results. If this works for you, then continue it, if it doesn't adjust.

my plan was to do

morning cardio for 30 min
fast all day
BCAA pre/intra workout in the afternoon
eat post-workout until bed
repeat next day

i really love the energy/focus of training in a fasted state but i dont want the fasted training to literally cause me to burn muscle. if i have been fasting for 16 hours the energy for weightlifting has to come from somewhere right? :/

[_OZ_]

Ted,

I don't think you will burn muscle if training in a fasted state. I don't have any studies but can offer myself as an example. I have been doing 99% of my weight-training workouts in a fasted state while at a sub-maintenance calorie level for the past 7 months and not lost muscle or strength. See for yourself by considering the following comparison photos of me. The first ones were taken in February 09 and the other ones were taken yesterday. I have been IF'ing consistently for the past 7 months and like you find I am able to train harder and with greater focus when in a fasted state. I like to eat an hour after my workout but sometimes if my schedule makes that inconvenient I don't eat for up to 8 hours later.

[determined4000]

if i have been fasting for 16 hours the energy for weightlifting has to come from somewhere right? :/

Hence the 8 hour feeding period

[KingCrimson]

I trained today in a non-fasted state, eating 3 hours previous to the workout, and I found that I was less concentrated and focused than when I train fasted. Something about having food in my stomach makes me feel lazy and sluggish while lifting weights. I think it has to do with what Ori Hofmekler touched on in "The Warrior Diet". When we are fasted, our bodies know that we need to go out and find food so it makes us more focused and energetic so that we can go out and exert lots of physical energy to either hunt or gather food. When our stomachs are full, there is no physiological reason for you to have lots of energy and be focused and intense, because there's no pressing need to go out and find food. It's all about evolution, and since training simulates the same type of demands on our bodies that intense hunting does, we can use this survival mechanism to our advantage in the gym by replicating a fasted/hunter state. It's seriously a mind/body phenomenon, both your body and mind are more intensely focused on the "kill". When I work out in a non-fasted state, my body feels weaker and more sluggish, and my mind is much more unfocused and not "in the zone". Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on the issue.

[edvanp]

[QUOTE=_OZ_;388127511]Ted,

I don't think you will burn muscle if training in a fasted state. I don't have any studies but can offer myself as an example. I have been doing 99% of my weight-training workouts in a fasted state while at a sub-maintenance calorie level for the past 7 months and not lost muscle or strength. See for yourself by considering the following comparison photos of me. The first ones were taken in February 09 and the other ones were taken yesterday. I have been IF'ing consistently for the past 7 months and like you find I am able to train harder and with greater focus when in a fasted state. I like to eat an hour after my workout but sometimes if my schedule makes that inconvenient I don't eat for up to 8 hours later.



[/QUOTE

Impressive, nice job!

[Ted Nugent]

anyone here ever consider taking a cortisol control supp to supress the elevated cortisol levels during the fast. im sure the fears of cortisol are overhyped, but there is hard science proving that cortisol levels are highest in the mornings upon waking and usually a nice big breakfast cures that but since we dont eat breakfast...lol. also any stims taken during the fast will raise cortisol levels :/ im considering taking something like Lean Xtreme which is a very well reviewed cortisol control supp during the fast and pre-workout to help minimize the very negative effects or cortisol.

[determined4000]

anyone here ever consider taking a cortisol control supp to supress the elevated cortisol levels during the fast. im sure the fears of cortisol are overhyped, but there is hard science proving that cortisol levels are highest in the mornings upon waking and usually a nice big breakfast cures that but since we dont eat breakfast...lol. also any stims taken during the fast will raise cortisol levels :/ im considering taking something like Lean Xtreme which is a very well reviewed cortisol control supp during the fast and pre-workout to help minimize the very negative effects or cortisol.

your cortisol levels are probably through the roof considering how much you stress about the smallest minutia about your diet
I seriously think you should not IF if you constantly worry about catabolism, cortisol, metabolism, eating toomuch or not enough
Is it really worth it?

[Ted Nugent]

your cortisol levels are probably through the roof considering how much you stress about the smallest minutia about your diet
I seriously think you should not IF if you constantly worry about catabolism, cortisol, metabolism, eating toomuch or not enough
Is it really worth it?

im just trying to make every aspect of my diet the best it can be. it doesnt cause me any stress or worry thinking about it, i actually find it very very interesting to think about all the different aspects. you could very well say i am "over-analyzing" and that i should just keep it simple and eat...but at the same time why not strive to learn more and make all possible imrovements?

eh, whatever. i'll keep it to myself and experiment and try not to bother ya'll

[determined4000]

im just trying to make every aspect of my diet the best it can be. it doesnt cause me any stress or worry thinking about it, i actually find it very very interesting to think about all the different aspects. you could very well say i am "over-analyzing" and that i should just keep it simple and eat...but at the same time why not strive to learn more and make all possible imrovements?

eh, whatever. i'll keep it to myself and experiment and try not to bother ya'll

no you should share
I was honestly not annoyed just raising a possible alternative
I enjoy discussing/analyzing as well it just seemed like you were getting similar answers about catabolism and still were fairly concerned about it. Like I said, I am sure you will find two sides to every debate as well.

[determined4000]

im just trying to make every aspect of my diet the best it can be. it doesnt cause me any stress or worry thinking about it, i actually find it very very interesting to think about all the different aspects. you could very well say i am "over-analyzing" and that i should just keep it simple and eat...but at the same time why not strive to learn more and make all possible imrovements?

eh, whatever. i'll keep it to myself and experiment and try not to bother ya'll

my personal belief about catabolism BTW
I view IF as a form of daily caloire cycling (daily as opposed to weekly with high and low days). You will fuel yourself for 24 hours during your feeding period. When you are fasting you use all that energy to keep from muscle being broke down. At a certain point energy is probably used up and some fat is metabolized (and yes probably a little muscle, which we hope is minimal). Those who eat throughout the day wouldn't experience this. Then you are working out during that period breaking down muscle (like any workout, so that it must rebuild bigger and stronger). Then after your workout you are refueling your body and giving it large amounts of energy and nutrients to rebuild, building up the muscle bigger than b4. As long as the daily intake isnt too great (too much fat stored) or too little (too much muscle break down) you should be able to see better muscle gains with little fat added or (if cutting) little muscle lost with max fat loss.

Throughout the day your body cycles through catabolic and anabolic periods (with any diet). What I believe is that with IF you experience more of this and attempt to make the anabolic activity outweigh the catabolic periods.

[DJohnson]

Knowing how smart out bodies are, in a weight lifting individual it's likely that a little extra muscle breakdown during training/fasting would results in an equal increase in muscle synthesis when your feeding period comes. Whether it's due to cortisol, fasting, whatever.

I think it just boils down to IF = super easy way to bodybuild. Give your body some credit.

[HUNTER1313]

I have (tried) discussing the whole IF/LeanGains way to my strongman buddies, and they're having none of it. One of them said the only time he fasts is from one meal to the next. They all say to pound the calories and such every 2-3 hours any less is bad news. Is IF still a good approach for guys after strength and muscle?

[determined4000]

I have (tried) discussing the whole IF/LeanGains way to my strongman buddies, and they're having none of it. One of them said the only time he fasts is from one meal to the next. They all say to pound the calories and such every 2-3 hours any less is bad news. Is IF still a good approach for guys after strength and muscle?

I wouldn't advise IF to anyone who is into strongman comps becuase I am guessing they are pounding far too many calories to pack it all in in such a short time and would probably get extremely hungry trying to fast 16hours because their bodies are so big and nutritional needs (calories) so high.

[apace]

ive heard that 24 hours fast twice a week burn alot of fat and realease growth hormone
the idea is that one when is dieting down to lose fat as one is already tired on a low calorie diet these 2 x 24 hr fast a week replace 4 sessions of cardio a week .
Ive never tried it yet as 24 hr fast seems hard .

Any one ever tried this with good success ??

[ski23man]

K guys I'm going go and try this today, so do I get this right most of you guys on the IF diet are working out fasted? I've been eating clean for a number of years to where I've restricted GI's and even my sodium intake to 1-2 grams a day and no matter what I've been added more mass if I have carbs in the morning for energy, pre-workout and post workout meal. I'm not fat by any means but on this kind of bodybuilding diet I'm seeing that my results go no further from tapering more fat off my midsection for abs.

I was thinking something like this for my normal day on this diet. Goin to bed at midnight.

9:00 - 4 (fasted stated)Green Tea/water/Purple Wrath BCAA
5:00 - workout
6:30 - post workout
9:00 - meal 2
12:00 - meal 3

Of course these would have to be bigger meals to accommodate for the calories but I just wanted to check if I was on the right path...

Also how are people's macros on this, are they still low carbs with the only meal with carbs being the post workout meal?

[The Solution]

I was thinking something like this for my normal day on this diet. Goin to bed at midnight.

9:00 - 4 (fasted stated)Green Tea/water/Purple Wrath BCAA
5:00 - workout
6:30 - post workout
9:00 - meal 2
12:00 - meal 3

Of course these would have to be bigger meals to accommodate for the calories but I just wanted to check if I was on the right path...

Also how are people's macros on this, are they still low carbs with the only meal with carbs being the post workout meal?

You can have a small pre-workout meal to break the fast around 500 or so kcal if you wish or workout fasted, I always worked out better with some carbs in me.

You can have the pre-workout meal/ PWO meal / 1 meal left in the day to hit all your macros unless you want to divide it up into smaller meals its personal preference.

Calories/Macros are based on your goal and what suits you. Generally Martin is an advocate of higher carb/lower fat. Some people cannot handle carbs well and go with a higher fat approach.. Read your body.

[ski23man]

You can have a small pre-workout meal to break the fast around 500 or so kcal if you wish or workout fasted, I always worked out better with some carbs in me.

You can have the pre-workout meal/ PWO meal / 1 meal left in the day to hit all your macros unless you want to divide it up into smaller meals its personal preference.

Calories/Macros are based on your goal and what suits you. Generally Martin is an advocate of higher carb/lower fat. Some people cannot handle carbs well and go with a higher fat approach.. Read your body.

Thank you sir for the response much appreciated. A friend referred me to this diet and it's crazy to think something like this exist and works compared to the average everyday BB eating styles but I'm open minded to trying anything.

The bold up above is definitely me, 100-150+ carbs and I started to add mass again...