"Fierce 5" Novice Routine

[davisj3537]

Can the reverse flies be substituted for face pulls?, also can the tricep pressdowns be substituted for skullcrushers and the lat pulldowns for weighted pullups?

Yes, yes and yes. Those are all good substitutions sir.

[GymFreak25]

Yes, yes and yes. Those are all good substitutions sir.

Thanks, bro, routine looks great btw

[davisj3537]

I'm really surprised I haven't gotten at least one of these questions about the programming yet. I'm going to go ahead and answer them close to the original post.

Why is there a 2:1 pull to push ratio?
How many people do you see on here complaining because their back is overpowering their chest and causing shoulder issues? None. How many people have you seen that have giant rear delts and no front delts? None. Generally the issue is when people have too much muscle in their pecs and anterior delts that problems begin to arise (impingement, rolled shoulders, posterior ribs coming out of place, hunchback posture.) The back muscles can also be hard to engage, while the chest and front delts tend to be much easier. The intensity also plays a big role. Everybody wants to have a big bench and some people unknowingly give it more effort.

Why are there bicep and tricep isolation exercises in this program; aren't they hit enough with big compounds? The simple answer to this is a lot of people would be adding them in anyway. Lets give them what they want in a reasonable manner. An iso for each, every other workout doesn't hurt anything and may help to keep beginners from modifying the program into an abomination.

[stitch123]

Why choose this over allpros? (Gotta be a lot of beginners thinking that question)

[davisj3537]

Why choose this over allpros? (Gotta be a lot of beginners thinking that question)

Good question. I'm glad you brought it up. It comes down to progression. It is just too slow for a guy, especially bulking.

Short story- I had some hip injuries that kept me from really doing any leg exercises for nearly a year (9 months I think.) I started working my legs back out in early December. In 4 weeks I put over 100lbs back on my squat. Granted I had "muscle memory" on my side, but still. A beginner won't be doing that well, but to put on 40 per month is completely achievable. If the same beginner did all pros the progression would only give them a maximum of 15lbs after 5 weeks. The 15lbs is a guess since all pros uses percentages obviously, but most beginners don't start out doing 200lbs for sets of 8. Most beginners would only get 10lbs on their squat/dl. Fierce 5 does that every week! The same concept applies for upper body lifts, but the numbers are obviously different.


You'll notice I said guy in the first part of my post. Women don't have the hormones to get the same growth and strength increases men do. With that in mind I think All pros is a superior program for women. When my gf starts hitting the iron again I'm half tempted to put her back on all pros. It is either that or dropping the progression for this program in half.

A guy that is cutting may have a similar problem with handling the progression. I was really struggling with whether or not I should recommend using half of the progression for cutting males, but I decided to see how they react to the progression and make adjustments if needed. A total beginner, even cutting, is going to make some very significant strength increases pretty quick.

This is also why the time frame you can run this program is much shorter than all pros. All pros slow progression allows lifters to stay on it for up to a year, while this program is probably half of that.

[GymFreak25]

Hey, i have been doing this routine for a few weeks now:

Workout A:

Squat 3x5
Bench 5x5
Rows 5x5
Dips 3x10-12
Barbell curls 3x10-12
Weighted crunches 2x10-12

Workout B:

Squat 3x5
Press 5x5
Deadlift 1x5
Chins/pullups alternated 3x10-12
Skullcrushers 3x10-12
Weighted crunches 2x10-12


Now im undecided whether i should stick with it or switch to yours, my main concern is that i would lose the progress that i have made on it if i switch to your routine, since i would have to start out with lighter weight again, i wanted to get your opinion on my routine and if you see any flaws with it?, and whether you think switching to yours would be worth it?, thanks.

Ps. Also forgot to mention that i started out doing 5x5 with squats, but changed it to 3x5 last workout since the 5x5 3x a week was taking a toll on me.

[davisj3537]

Hey, i have been doing this routine for a few weeks now:

Workout A:

Squat 3x5
Bench 5x5
Rows 5x5
Dips 3x10-12
Barbell curls 3x10-12
Weighted crunches 2x10-12

Workout B:

Squat 3x5
Press 5x5
Deadlift 1x5
Chins/pullups alternated 3x10-12
Skullcrushers 3x10-12
Weighted crunches 2x10-12


Now im undecided whether i should stick with it or switch to yours, my main concern is that i would lose the progress that i have made on it if i switch to your routine, since i would have to start out with lighter weight again, i wanted to get your opinion on my routine and if you see any flaws with it?, and whether you think switching to yours would be worth it?, thanks.

Ps. Also forgot to mention that i started out doing 5x5 with squats, but changed it to 3x5 last workout since the 5x5 3x a week was taking a toll on me.

Your routine isn't bad. It is a little unbalanced in terms of quad/hamstring and I'd personally like a higher pull/push ratio, but overall it is good man. As far as losing what you gained, I wouldn't worry about it. You won't actually lose anything. Then again, I hate to advocate hopping programs when yours isn't bad.

It is a 50/50 call on your behalf.

[GymFreak25]

Your routine isn't bad. It is a little unbalanced in terms of quad/hamstring and I'd personally like a higher pull/push ratio, but overall it is good man. As far as losing what you gained, I wouldn't worry about it. You won't actually lose anything. Then again, I hate to advocate hopping programs when yours isn't bad.

It is a 50/50 call on your behalf.

Thanks man, yeah i think ima stick with it since i don't plan to be on it for that long, just planning to run it for 3-4 months to get stronger before moving to an upper/lower or a p/p/l.

[TraposaurusRx]

Gonna get started woth this on Monday. Anyway I can work in my favorite exercise? The bb shrug

[Electrolytes]

Wow my routine is pretty close to yours, mine's made from BLSS:
WORKOUT A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
T-Bar Row 3x5
Face Pulls 3x12
Bicep Curls 3x12
Farmer's Walks 3x50 steps (My grip sucks and I like farmer's walks so that's why these are here)
Calf Raises 3x12

WORKOUT B:
Front Squat 3x5
OHP 3x5
Deadlift 1x5
Side Raises 3x12
Skullcrushers 3x12
Weighted Crunches 3x12

Progression and workout days are just like SS, 3x a week.

The big differences really are the front squats, 3x5 deadlifts, and 3x8 pendlay rows. I'm wondering what is your reasoning on pendlay rows and that rep number? I'm considering changing my rows cause I think i feel it on my biceps and not a lot on my upper back. Having quads on both days is partly because SS does it plus I like front squats. Any input is appreciated!

[illfreshfly]

I also have to ask why pendlay rows? I used to do them but didn't like them and as soon stopped them and switched to bb rows I started getting them back gains.

[Jasonk282]

I'm really surprised I haven't gotten at least one of these questions about the programming yet. I'm going to go ahead and answer them close to the original post.

Why is there a 2:1 pull to push ratio?
How many people do you see on here complaining because their back is overpowering their chest and causing shoulder issues? None. How many people have you seen that have giant rear delts and no front delts? None. Generally the issue is when people have too much muscle in their pecs and anterior delts that problems begin to arise (impingement, rolled shoulders, posterior ribs coming out of place, hunchback posture.) The back muscles can also be hard to engage, while the chest and front delts tend to be much easier. The intensity also plays a big role. Everybody wants to have a big bench and some people unknowingly give it more effort.

Why are there bicep and tricep isolation exercises in this program; aren't they hit enough with big compounds? The simple answer to this is a lot of people would be adding them in anyway. Lets give them what they want in a reasonable manner. An iso for each, every other workout doesn't hurt anything and may help to keep beginners from modifying the program into an abomination.

Hopefully that's because after a few years of this being beaten into their heads they now understand it..hopefully.

I also have to ask why pendlay rows? I used to do them but didn't like them and as soon stopped them and switched to bb rows I started getting them back gains.

So there is a pull from the floor each workout. pendlays start and finish on the floor, as opposed to your 'bodybuilder' type of row.

[cjowns76]

I like the idea of this program man, good work! Awesome write up as well.

[GymFreak25]

How exactly is the progression of the program?, i know you say add 5 pounds to upper body lifts and 10 pounds to lower body, but is that workout to workout or do you use the same weight through the entire week and then add those pounds on the following week?

[Jasonk282]

How exactly is the progression of the program?, i know you say add 5 pounds to upper body lifts and 10 pounds to lower body, but is that workout to workout or do you use the same weight through the entire week and then add those pounds on the following week?

Weight is added each week.

[GymFreak25]

Weight is added each week.

Oh so its similar to all pros, with the only difference that your progressing in weight weekly rather than in reps?

[GymFreak25]

Hell i might just start this routine rather than the one im on, squatting 3x a week is a pain in the azz, what is your logic behind alternating squat and deadlift each workout though?.

[TraposaurusRx]

Anyone have an idea about trying to fit shrugs in some where?

Also..sticky sticky sticky go!

[GymFreak25]

Anyone have an idea about trying to fit shrugs in some where?

Also..sticky sticky sticky go!

You can probably fit them in on one of the workouts, but i honestly don't feel they are needed at all as a novice.

[Jasonk282]

Oh so its similar to all pros, with the only difference that your progressing in weight weekly rather than in reps?

Adding a rep is still adding weight.

if I squat 250x9 one week that's 2250 total tonnage, if I do 250x10 the next week that's 2500 total tonnage...an increase of 250 lbs.

All pros' uses dual factor progression

Hell i might just start this routine rather than the one im on, squatting 3x a week is a pain in the azz, what is your logic behind alternating squat and deadlift each workout though?.

no it's not, you just have to get used to it.

thre will be a point where squatting heavy will begin to effect your deadlift and recovery this is why programs like SS/Madcows have you doing lighter or front squats after your first or second stall so you can keep progressing.

[Jasonk282]

Anyone have an idea about trying to fit shrugs in some where?

Also..sticky sticky sticky go!

I'd say deadlift day, that way there's no issues with them effecting your deadlift.

[TraposaurusRx]

You can probably fit them in on one of the workouts, but i honestly don't feel they are needed at all as a novice.

Probably true. But I love shrugs and hitting traps lol
and find it impressive when people have the "mounds" from big traps. Plus they could help with deadlifts lock out and who nees a bar pad when you got traps? Lol

Also heavy shrugs and shrugs for reps would help grip strength for deads and rows

[TraposaurusRx]

I'd say deadlift day, that way there's no issues with them effecting your deadlift.

Hmm ok. Ill see how it feels doing them at the end of deadlift days so I do the whole main workout first.

[jdoug85]

Made an account just to reply to this, after a long time lurking on the forums for training/nutrition information.

Looks like a really great program mate. I'll stick to All Pros while cutting (for approx another two months or so), but am very keen to jump onto this as soon as I start a bulking cycle. Look forward to seeing how I can progress; looks a lot more manageable than ICF which I've previously run for six months. Will be spending a fair bit of time in this thread methinks!

[CrazyCanuck01]

Seems like a good routine, like really. Not too simple like SS, and not too much volume like ICF.

I agree, routine looks good. Just about to get back in to the gym after a month or so off. Looking forward to trying this.
Thanks!

[3volution3]

Why are there bicep and tricep isolation exercises in this program; aren't they hit enough with big compounds? The simple answer to this is a lot of people would be adding them in anyway. Lets give them what they want in a reasonable manner. An iso for each, every other workout doesn't hurt anything and may help to keep beginners from modifying the program into an abomination.

For those who want to do the proper program how would the program be without the bicep and tricep isolation "a lot of people would be adding anyway", same exercises but without isolations or any other change? And what would be recommended for people without access to machines to replace leg curls?

[davisj3537]

Gonna get started woth this on Monday. Anyway I can work in my favorite exercise? The bb shrug

I would say no. The program doesn't need any more volume. That is what makes it good. Your traps get hit pretty good with all of the other pulls. Your traps aren't a weak point if you are gonna be running this program. You whole body is the weak point.

I have a feeling you are gonna do them anyway. lol

I'm wondering what is your reasoning on pendlay rows and that rep number?

This isn't a "critique my routine" thread so I'm gonna skip over that part. The pendlay rows-the pendlay rows are IMO the best directional pull to counteract bench. Sure BOR are good too, but I don't like them as much. Moreover it completes the back routine. Each solid back routine should have a pull from each direction. They cover some good differences between BOR and pendlay in the video in the OP. I used a higher rep number for pulls since they need more volume than presses. I'd rather people learn the form with reasonable weight than try to smash out 5 reps with $hit form and not really engage their back well.

Hopefully that's because after a few years of this being beaten into their heads they now understand it..hopefully.

In a perfect world...

what is your logic behind alternating squat and deadlift each workout though?.

It is all about balance and it takes a thesis to explain why each specific exercise is chosen and placed where it is. Everything is specifically chosen to fill a void and balance something else.

All pros' uses dual factor progression

I learned a new term today Imagine that dumb "the more you know" commercial with the shooting star gif. lol

Made an account just to reply to this, after a long time lurking on the forums for training/nutrition information.

Looks like a really great program mate. I'll stick to All Pros while cutting (for approx another two months or so), but am very keen to jump onto this as soon as I start a bulking cycle. Look forward to seeing how I can progress; looks a lot more manageable than ICF which I've previously run for six months. Will be spending a fair bit of time in this thread methinks!

I agree, routine looks good. Just about to get back in to the gym after a month or so off. Looking forward to trying this.
Thanks!

Nice to have you guys on board.

For those who want to do the proper program how would the program be without the bicep and tricep isolation "a lot of people would be adding anyway", same exercises but without isolations or any other change? And what would be recommended for people without access to machines to replace leg curls?

It would be the same program without the bicep and tricep iso workouts. Nothing in place of them. The bicep and tricep isos help fill a void in a noobs head. "I want big arms so I gotta do arm isos." While this isn't the case, it is a VERY common mindset. The isos aren't hurting anything. Just leave them be. You'll get slightly better arm development with them in place.

The leg curl question is one hell of a curveball to be quite honest. The program doesn't need another compound. It needs a leg iso to hit the hamstrings to balance out squats being a little quad dominant and deadlifts being quad dominant. I'd have to change the entire program to make that work with the amount of balance and volume I'm comfortable putting my name on. Some people would say to replace the deadlift/leg curl with SLDL/front squat, but I don't like that near as much. It just replaces an iso with a big compound. When push comes to show that is what I would do, but it is inferior to the dl/leg curl from a volume perspective.

[3volution3]

The leg curl questions is one hell of a curveball to be quite honest. The program doesn't need another compound. It needs a leg iso to hit the hamstrings. I'd have to change the entire program to make that work with decent balance and not overdoing volume. Do a different program?

I see. I was going for allpros because it seems to be praised and then you made this new program (congrats btw) and you are getting such nice reviews and I really like the program but it seems that as I'm starting to train at home I should do allpros because it only uses a barbell which is something I already have items to make for free. Thanks anyway and keep up the nice work!

EDIT: Just readed the edit you made. I'm going to consider the SLDL/front squat suggestion and think about it. You say it may not be perfect but I'm in no condition to complain anyway.

[davisj3537]

I see. I was going for allpros because it seems to be praised and then you made this new program (congrats btw) and you are getting such nice reviews and I really like the program but it seems that as I'm starting to train at home I should do allpros because it only uses a barbell which is something I already have items to make for free. Thanks anyway and keep up the nice work!

EDIT: Just readed the edit you made. I'm going to consider the SLDL/front squat suggestion and think about it. You say it may not be perfect but I'm in no condition to complain anyway.

All pros is a good program too. I'm sure either way you'll end up looking great bud. Good luck.

[GymFreak25]

Hey Davis, so just to be clear, im adding 5 pounds to upper body lifts and 10 pounds to lower body lifts every weeek and not workout to workout?, so basically in any given week im working with the same weight and not adding weight or reps throughout the week?.

Also how do you feel about adding romanians?, they seem to pair well with the leg curls.