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12-15-2017, 11:39 PM #91
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12-16-2017, 08:21 AM #92
- Join Date: Dec 2008
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Skeptical of the effect at 2g because of the higher amount and the diminishing returns effect?
I'm going to continue the 5g leu 20 mins prior to a mixed mean however I'm thinking after all these months on the leu (even though I've seen apparent body composition changes) that leucine supplementing is going to work best for Pro intake that's below the needed amount for MPS optimization
I mean the other idea (20 mins prior) is just an advanced hypothesis (until it's studied more) but adding leu to food below the needed leu for optimal MPS seems to be the most valid/useful I supposeNASM CPT
IG: jeff.galanzzi
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RIP my friend D4K
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12-16-2017, 08:58 AM #93
When consuming >2 gram protein per kg and training well 24h MPS is already high. I'd be surprised if adding extra leucine will make a difference.
Jorn thinks it will. Some other people aren't.
I'm going to continue the 5g leu 20 mins prior to a mixed meal
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12-16-2017, 09:15 AM #94
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I guess that's why Jorns idea needs more testing cause at intake that high it's likely maxed out
Didn't he even have some chart about MPS leveling off as Pro intake reached a certain level?
I remember something with an arrow going left to right, I'll have to look again
I didn't take pix specifically pre leucine supplementing but I guess I could put together some idea of then and now since I'm obsessively taking pix for IG and myself lol
I think the leucine supplementing began in June, I'd have to go back and look at the threads here and also my Amazon order history of LeucineNASM CPT
IG: jeff.galanzzi
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RIP my friend D4K
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12-16-2017, 09:46 AM #95
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Cool study I just saw today:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28925405
Basically the results were that alternating short periods of cutting/maintenance was better than just straight cutting. This matches my expectations due to hormonal effects but the results were much more dramatic than I would have expected. Full text here:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo2017206
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12-16-2017, 10:07 AM #96
Not that I'm aware of.
I bet you've seen it before
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=174762961
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12-16-2017, 10:32 AM #97
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This was the one I was thinking of, where they MPS response started to level off at the higher intake so that's where I thought if they tested the 2g/kg with the leu there wouldn't be much difference since it was approaching the higher level
Maybe I'm confused but that's what I thoughtNASM CPT
IG: jeff.galanzzi
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RIP my friend D4K
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12-16-2017, 10:34 AM #98
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12-16-2017, 10:44 AM #99
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12-16-2017, 10:54 AM #100
The image you posted refers to whey, a fast digesting protein source. This won't be affected by the problem Jorn is describing.
Jorn's hypothesis is that when you eat mixed meals, leucine can't peak high enough because of slow digestion. This is why he thinks 5 gram leucine could have merit.
I'm skeptical of his idea because greater portions of beef did lead to higher MPS: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/...v#.WjVrTFQ-fpA
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12-16-2017, 11:06 AM #101
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12-16-2017, 11:09 AM #102
Probably the best data we have, Murphy 2016. Old men. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea....full.pdf+html
The dark block is 0.8 gram per kg. The light one 1.2 gram per kg. Now imagine where 2 gram per g would end up. Probably very close, if not level to, the leucine supplemented groups.
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12-16-2017, 11:33 AM #103
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12-16-2017, 11:34 AM #104
- Join Date: Dec 2008
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Oh ok, I get it now, sorry for the confusion
I forgot about the mixed meals!.....That's why I was taking it 20 mins prior to offset the lack of peaking due to the mixed meals, duh lol
Sorry I'm battling a flu today, I'm foggy
Interesting link there on the beef, send to Jorn
Another good one, thanks for posting
I LOL'd @ "free living" old men
What the hell are those? LolNASM CPT
IG: jeff.galanzzi
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RIP my friend D4K
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12-16-2017, 11:37 AM #105
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12-16-2017, 11:44 AM #106
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True I'm with you on that
It's interesting that others didn't jump on this theory back in June when he published that and we'd see multiple studies by now, maybe they're in the works, hopefully
It's uber important I think but I'll still say Jorn is correct but only by my own anecdotal results, which in research, mean absolutely zeroNASM CPT
IG: jeff.galanzzi
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RIP my friend D4K
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12-17-2017, 04:52 AM #107
An interesting observation i have found over the last few days.
I tried taking my whey protein without milk for the same reason that theoretically the casein and fat from the milk would slow digestion and thus reduce leucine peak but i have noticed that because i only have a shake for breakfast the whey on its own left me feeling REALLY hungry a couple of hours later compared to having it with milk.I can usually wait until lunch without even thinking about food at all but since having the whey with no milk for the past couple of days i have had a strong urge and craving to eat before lunch that's actually hard to control.
Today i am back to whey with milk and right on que not feeling hungry at all before lunch. Whats more interesting is that i drank even more whey to compensate for the calorie difference from the milk and protein content from the milk and still felt the significant difference on effects of hunger.
For me its not worth any theological benefit for the above reasons especially as i am trying to re comp in a small deficit.
I am however now fascinated by the difference the milk made to satiety i never imagined it would make such a significant difference.
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12-17-2017, 06:07 AM #108
R5GT, actually theoretically it may be better to have whey with milk (/casein) for breakfast. The leucine peak might be slightly lower but that's easily solved by having a bit more protein. The benefit of having casein with the whey is that it will stimulate MPS for a longer period.
Explained by Layne Norton: https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the...or-casein.html
Even post workout whey with some casein may be optimal: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16937979
Jorn's hypothesis revolves more about mixed solid meals, where slow digestion MAY become an issue, although this hasn't been supported in studies.Last edited by Mrpb; 12-17-2017 at 06:36 AM.
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12-17-2017, 09:02 AM #109
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12-18-2017, 03:33 AM #110
Brad Schoenfeld just post this
https://www.********.com/brad.schoen...14289080761958
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12-18-2017, 03:46 AM #111
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12-18-2017, 04:54 AM #112
Yeah leucine without the other EAAs, like they did in this study, is useless.
But that's not what Jorn is suggesting. He's saying 5 gram before you eat your protein. His strategy may provide a (small?) benefit, we simply don't know yet.
But us mortals can only speculate. Jorn however has access to tons of unpublished data from the 2 of the best protein labs in the world: Stu Phillips' and Luc van Loons.
Personally I don't use leucine supplementation though, I'd be worried what it would it would do to plasma tryptophan, which is important for mood, sleep etc.Last edited by Mrpb; 12-18-2017 at 05:38 AM.
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12-18-2017, 05:41 AM #113
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12-18-2017, 06:12 AM #114
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12-18-2017, 06:20 AM #115
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12-18-2017, 06:27 AM #116
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12-18-2017, 06:31 AM #117
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12-18-2017, 07:00 AM #118
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12-18-2017, 07:02 AM #119
- Join Date: Dec 2008
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12-21-2017, 07:14 AM #120
Jorn has replied now.
https://www.********.com/brad.schoen...%3A%22R9%22%7D
Peak plasma leucine concentration is an important trigger for MPS. Even when you eat a high-protein diet, the actual leucine peak might not be optimized as whole meals are digested pretty slowly. This would result in a moderate leucine elevation throughout the whole day, but not necessarily in optimal leucine peaks.
Support for that concept comes from a study in which MPS is lower when whey protein is ingested in smaller sips (that do not result in a high leucine peak) versus one big bolus (resulting in a high leucine peak), even though it's the exact same protein in the same amount. For more support and details on why it MAY be beneficial, see the article I linked above.
Note that I make it very clear in that article that it's an advanced hypothesis: so I'm not suggesting it's evidence-based and fully acknowledge it might not even work out at all. I don't recommend it and most people should not even try it. It's only something that might be of interesting for those athletes that are looking for stuff that give them a competitive advantage (and is unlikely to have negative effect). BTW, you could get the same effect with whey or a hydrolyzed protein etc.
I have no problem with people being critical about it. I'm critical about it myself.Last edited by Mrpb; 12-21-2017 at 07:20 AM.
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